To compress or not to compress..... that is the question....

[Craig Vecchione]

I wouldn't compress a drum kit that sounds good. Many try to "enhance" and only succeed in sucking the life out of the drums. If there's an excessive ringing after a hit, that you can't eliminated with tuning, heads, dampening, etc. only then should you attempt to use the gate. not the comp. Gates have their own set of problems....how do you set the gate so that the loud kick hit opens it, but the equally loud snare sitting 2 feet away doesn't? The answer is that you really can't...the gate "hears" everything that gets into the mic, and doesn't care at all whether the threshold is met by the intended sound or some other noise. Hence why it's best to only use these tools when "normal" means fail.

[tama_drummer_73]

I wouldn't compress a drum kit that sounds good. Many try to "enhance" and only succeed in sucking the life out of the drums. If there's an excessive ringing after a hit, that you can't eliminated with tuning, heads, dampening, etc. only then should you attempt to use the gate. not the comp. Gates have their own set of problems....how do you set the gate so that the loud kick hit opens it, but the equally loud snare sitting 2 feet away doesn't? The answer is that you really can't...the gate "hears" everything that gets into the mic, and doesn't care at all whether the threshold is met by the intended sound or some other noise. Hence why it's best to only use these tools when "normal" means fail.

 

 

Totally grasping the concept now!

 

Thanks!

[jasps]

Honestly if the sound of the kick is great without compression, I am leaving it. No sense in messing with it unless it needs something. Right?

Right; if it isn't broke don't break it! You may want to shave a bit of dynamic range out of a vocal if the vocalist has a tendency to overstate the appropriate dynamic range of the song. That technique should not be used as a replacement for live mixing, however.

The reason compression reduces the "punch" of a kick drum is because you are COMPRESSING the available dynamic range of the drum. What many noobs do with compression, thinking they set it correctly, is get a setting and turn up the makeup gain, which results in a louder sound. And since louder is better, we need a compressor on everything. True story: I have a friend who believes that compression makes everything sound "better."

A Gate, as alluded to, increases dynamic range by reducing the garbage your kick mic may be picking up until it reaches a certain level. You let the impact and initial hit through and get rid of the rest of the junk you don't need. Experiment with your band to see how it works and try it out, bypass the unit if you think you have a good setting to see. Don't experiment on the paying patrons until you know what you're doing, though.

[Craig Vecchione]

Totally grasping the concept now! Thanks!

 

Excellent!

[tama_drummer_73]

and Right; if it isn't broke don't break it! You may want to shave a bit of dynamic range out of a vocal if the vocalist has a tendency to overstate the appropriate dynamic range of the song. That technique should not be used as a replacement for live mixing, however. The reason compression reduces the "punch" of a kick drum is because you are COMPRESSING the available dynamic range of the drum. What many noobs do with compression, thinking they set it correctly, is get a setting and turn up the makeup gain, which results in a louder sound. And since louder is better, we need a compressor on everything. True story: I have a friend who believes that compression makes everything sound "better." A Gate, as alluded to, increases dynamic range by reducing the garbage your kick mic may be picking up until it reaches a certain level. You let the impact and initial hit through and get rid of the rest of the junk you don't need. Experiment with your band to see how it works and try it out, bypass the unit if you think you have a good setting to see. Don't experiment on the paying patrons until you know what you're doing, though.

If I could clone myself during a show to run sound I would, but unfortunately some times we get people to run sound for us that just don't know enough. They are constantly chasing vocalists all night with the faders. Still, I think you are correct, experimentation on paying patrons is a BAD thing. . So what would you do if you have an inexperienced person running sound, I say inexperienced, one that has enough knowledge to understand the board and what it does, but doesn't understand the gear beside him enough to utilize it? That is the question.... UGH....

[Craig Vecchione]

If I could clone myself during a show to run sound I would, but unfortunately some times we get people to run sound for us that just don't know enough. They are constantly chasing vocalists all night with the faders. Still, I think you are correct, experimentation on paying patrons is a BAD thing. . So what would you do if you have an inexperienced person running sound, I say inexperienced, one that has enough knowledge to understand the board and what it does, but doesn't understand the gear beside him enough to utilize it? That is the question.... UGH....

 

Set up before the show...this is sometimes harder than it sounds, but you need to have the rig dialed in for levels, monitors, etc. Keep volume in check so feedback isn't a constant hassle. Then instruct the sound person to please not adjust faders unless there's a problem with feedback. The band has to then take control of its dynamics (which goo pro bands do anyway) and handle solo's etc. on their own. Basically you perform like an acoustic act as far as dynamics are concerned.

 

Running sound for pro acts is cake, and easy money. You earn your pay with noobs and wannabe's.....

[tama_drummer_73]

Yeah, that is pretty much exactly what we do. We try to keep our stage volume to a minimum. Such as keeping the guitar cabs elevated so that they aren't hitting the backs of the guitar players legs. They don't crank their amps to 11. Rarely do they ever get over 2-3 on the amp. I've been trying to convey to them to allow me to mic everything so that the PA will do the work instead of increasing the amp volume and not micing. It's tough sometimes, but they are starting to understand it some. As a band we do a really good job of controlling the dynamic of the mix from the stage, but sometimes its tough, especially when you get into a song. Adrenaline takes over and your brain shuts off LOL! Thanks for the tips!

[tama_drummer_73]

One thing we have been working on to try and do is minimize our setup time. With my drum kit taking probably 45 min to setup, yeah its a big kit, no rack, and it takes a while for me to get to a point of where I can help with the PA. I've been training people on what to hook up and where to hook it to. Yeah, I invested in a GOOD label maker LOL!

 

For the most part everyone works on their own part to get the gear setup. The biggest part being the PA, and drum mics. I like being able to have as much control over the mix as possible. So, some times it gets frustrating for the rest of the group because they don't understand why I am doing it. They are starting to understand the reasoning behind it though.

 

Anyway, the inexperience thing is not a big deal because I can set things prior to sound check. I think it is harder to train someone that has done small shows with minimal gear than someone that has never done it before.

 

Anyone ever been faced with that before?

[Coaster]

Set up before the show...this is sometimes harder than it sounds, but you need to have the rig dialed in for levels, monitors, etc. Keep volume in check so feedback isn't a constant hassle. Then instruct the sound person to please not adjust faders unless there's a problem with feedback. The band has to then take control of its dynamics (which goo pro bands do anyway) and handle solo's etc. on their own. Basically you perform like an acoustic act as far as dynamics are concerned. Running sound for pro acts is cake, and easy money. You earn your pay with noobs and wannabe's.....

 

 

and then we all go home to our model wives who are so sweet and live in gumdrop houses with diamond covered doors and drive cars that produce water, oxygen and a pleasant smell.

 

most of the time though its more like you cannot make any noise until 30 min before the band goes on, set up with flashlights in complete darkness, during soundcheck the band gives you {censored} levels and wants their wedges to smucker up to their ass and blow sugar, the whole time the crowd is louder than an airplane and spilling drinks while bumping into FOH. light guy hasnt shown up yet so you havent seen any lighting at all and the bass player is so loud he is dominating the vocal mics. the owner is screaming at you to shut it off because UFC is on and what the hell are we doing anyway. the band had sent a rider that they were a 3 piece but show up as a four piece and i am short a wedge, so two people are sharing one and they each want a different mix. the drummer is singing for the first time ever and bangs the snare so hard he has a pile of sawdust on the drum head and wants more "me" in the wedge and please turn down that snare. you do what you can with that 7 second decay time at 680HZ due to the steel roof, glass backdrop and tile floor. first song is the real soundcheck and all those levels you left 15db headroom on are now deep in the red and the singers wedge is howling because he decided to look cool and cup the mic.*

 

* i dont think that has all happened at one time to me, but sometimes you roll with it or it rolls over you. makes me long for high $$$ corporate when it does happen

[Craig Vecchione]

Indeed, as of the last time I checked, nobody repealed Murphy's Law.

 

Sounds like "any given night", really. If you haven't had all that and more in one gig, you're really livin'!!

 

How many of us have had to set up these bar gigs based on psychic powers, karma, luck and keen observation? You see a full stack, twin kicks, and two SVT's, if you think it's a good idea to run the cab mics and DI's to +2dB, you've been smoking the oregano. Or should be.

[tama_drummer_73]

How many of us have had to set up these bar gigs based on psychic powers, karma, luck and keen observation? You see a full stack, twin kicks, and two SVT's, if you think it's a good idea to run the cab mics and DI's to +2dB, you've been smoking the oregano. Or should be.

 

 

Its funny, when you see the big rock acts on stage and they have these walls of cabs and for some reason you find out later they were playing through a 1-12 combo behind stage mic'd. It's funny.... Honestly a 2-12 cab mic'd will sound much better than a full stack. Both of our guitar players are very aware of their stage volume. One plays through a 2-12 genz benz cab with Soldano head and the other plays through a 4 -12 cab with Deizel head, which the one playing through the Deizel is going to be switching to a 2-12 cab real soon. It's not about being the loudest on stage.

[agedhorse]

So set the compressor at 1:1, use the gate and the limiter. Any suggestions on what to set the threshold of the gate to? Fairly high?

 

 

1:1 is zero compression.

[agedhorse]

If I could clone myself during a show to run sound I would, but unfortunately some times we get people to run sound for us that just don't know enough. They are constantly chasing vocalists all night with the faders. Still, I think you are correct, experimentation on paying patrons is a BAD thing. . So what would you do if you have an inexperienced person running sound, I say inexperienced, one that has enough knowledge to understand the board and what it does, but doesn't understand the gear beside him enough to utilize it? That is the question.... UGH....

Rule number 1... do not use what can not be comprehended. If they do not have the understanding for compression and gating then just skip it. You haven't identified the real need yet.

[agedhorse]

Not correct here. In general, compression is best suited to inserting on each channel and used in moderation. This is always going to be a tradeoff in monitors but for a few dB of gain reduction it's not generally an issue. I do not generally like to use more than a few dB of gain reduction on vocals, to keep them sounding natural. Compressing the vocal group will result in differeing thresholds for the different sources and each source will affect the overall gain of the remaining sources. Occasionally this can be used to an advantage but only when you fully understand what is going on and why this might work. Generally it's not desireable.

 

[tama_drummer_73]

Not correct here. In general, compression is best suited to inserting on each channel and used in moderation. This is always going to be a tradeoff in monitors but for a few dB of gain reduction it's not generally an issue. I do not generally like to use more than a few dB of gain reduction on vocals, to keep them sounding natural. Compressing the vocal group will result in differeing thresholds for the different sources and each source will affect the overall gain of the remaining sources. Occasionally this can be used to an advantage but only when you fully understand what is going on and why this might work. Generally it's not desireable.

 

 

Gotcha. I'm just trying to go through all of the possibilities that I might encounter, or at least the ones that I have thought of. Granted I know "jack" at this point, but I am getting a smidge better at recognizing whether or not I will even need it.

 

Thanks for your insight agedhorse.

[Shaster]

Wow, I just made it through this thread - hope it was worth it in the end. It did remind me of "The Cheese Shop", dunno why...

Oh yea, back to setting up. I just did a gig on Boxing Day where the manager wanted the band to start "right after the hockey game". Couldn't set up early that day so... Ever sound check a PA during a "big" game? It almost came to blows, and I'm way too old for that crap.

But what, quit showbiz?

[1tribe]

I believe I read one of Dave Rats blogs that he doesnt use compressors and will very lightly use a gate on the kick drum. I myself dont use them, I use a small kick drum 16x20 to give me a nice punchy sound without alot of overringing tones. I dont use any internal muffling either unless the building has alot of reverberant ringing going on. I also use good drum heads on my toms (coated G2's) so I dont have alot of ringing going on there too. My cymbals dont have alot of wash either.