Looper question.

[1001gear]

I got a cheap Cino looper. Very cool tool. Exports to Windows so it'll serve as a sketch toy and recording interface.

And the question:

It records in 48k 24bit mono so why does playback through the guitar amp lose high end? Is it compression? The live, through sound is fine.

[daddymack]

hard to say without hearing it, more likely some filter setting, but...you said the magic word: 'cheap'.

[1001gear]

Then my toy budget would have to be 50k not the couple hundrums it am.

[Mr.Grumpy]

On 12/29/2020 at 8:38 AM, 1001gear said:

so why does playback through the guitar amp lose high end?

Are you playing back drum loops via the pedal through your guitar amp? Guitar amps aren't full-range music reproduction systems. By design, their frequency response is very limited compared to a system made to playback recorded music.  Guitar amps also don't have "flat" response - they are typically mid-scooped because magnetic pickups are midrange heavy. 

[1001gear]

3 hours ago, Mr.Grumpy said:

Are you playing back drum loops via the pedal through your guitar amp? Guitar amps aren't full-range music reproduction systems. By design, their frequency response is very limited compared to a system made to playback recorded music.  Guitar amps also don't have "flat" response - they are typically mid-scooped because magnetic pickups are midrange heavy. 

No just the initial guitar track and whatever guitar dubs.

[Ancient Mariner]

On 12/29/2020 at 2:38 PM, 1001gear said:

I got a cheap Cino looper. Very cool tool. Exports to Windows so it'll serve as a sketch toy and recording interface.

And the question:

It records in 48k 24bit mono so why does playback through the guitar amp lose high end? Is it compression? The live, through sound is fine.

Just to check I understand correctly: When you play to create the loop it sounds different to when you start the loop playing back?

Since you can access the 'internals' through windows, as suggested I would check there isn't some kind of high-end attenuation box ticked by default.

[1001gear]

23 minutes ago, Ancient Mariner said:

Just to check I understand correctly: When you play to create the loop it sounds different to when you start the loop playing back?

Since you can access the 'internals' through windows, as suggested I would check there isn't some kind of high-end attenuation box ticked by default.

The live signal goes straight through to the amp so that's the default tone. The loop playback will do line level at supposedly 48k 24bit but through the guitar amp, has reduced treble. I'm thinking it's some kind of limiter and or impedance mismatch.

[Ancient Mariner]

7 minutes ago, 1001gear said:

The live signal goes straight through to the amp so that's the default tone. The loop playback will do line level at supposedly 48k 24bit but through the guitar amp, has reduced treble. I'm thinking it's some kind of limiter and or impedance mismatch.

Weird. Every looper I ever heard sounded the same as original. Is the looper running to amp input or in effects loop? If the looper is going to input do you have any other pedals in there too, particularly either a fuzz (they can do odd things sometimes) and is the looper first or last in the chain (should be last)? Do you have any buffered pedals (i.e. boss) in the chain too (that will help with impedance issues)

[1001gear]

3 hours ago, Ancient Mariner said:

Weird. Every looper I ever heard sounded the same as original. Is the looper running to amp input or in effects loop? If the looper is going to input do you have any other pedals in there too, particularly either a fuzz (they can do odd things sometimes) and is the looper first or last in the chain (should be last)? Do you have any buffered pedals (i.e. boss) in the chain too (that will help with impedance issues)

I just got it so most of the stuff is clean/slightly driven and some have saturated lead parts. All the drives are true bypass and the tone works to my satisfaction as is It _is_ odd because only the recorded playback is darkened.

[daddymack]

On 12/30/2020 at 3:10 AM, 1001gear said:

Then my toy budget would have to be 50k not the couple hundrums it am.

I understand your budget limitations, but if you are going to buy cheap gear, don't come in here whining about it not working like pro level gear!

I suggest you start paying more than $29.99 for pedals. Really. Save a little longer, buy a little smarter.

My loopers [I have a couple ]don't do that. Plunk down a little more money and get a decent looper, like a  Ditto. You can find these used for ~70, and I have had ZERO issues with my Ditto in the several years I have been using it.

I tried the 'Chinese knockoff' pedal route with mixed results. Some did exactly what I wanted them to do [like the weirdly named Yellow Fall delay and Tutti Love chorus by Donner, or the Mooer 'Black Secret' distortion which replaced a different Mooer OD pedal], but most were just disappointing. One by one they were replaced in my [side gig] pedal board with better quality pedals that cost, okay, two, three and sometimes four times as much, but ultimately, they were worth it...and frankly not all that expensive  in reality. I have all sorts of pedals that I rarely use [especially now...] and many are very 'high end', but some, like the Donner and Mooer stuff, are relatively 'cheap', and my expectations for them are low.

I tried the Ammoon KOKKO Compressor...just...weak and useless,~$20, replaced with a Malekko Comp, used ~$65, happy camper!

A 'noname' buffer, ~$25...barely worked, but demonstrated the need for a buffer in the line, replaced with a TC 'Bona Fide' Buffer...world of difference, ~$60 used

A Donner 'Boost Killer'..~$28...replaced with a TC Spark, used, ~69, again, no comparison

If you are interested in buying any of my 'rejects', PM me...I will give you 'such a deal!' I don't even want to put them up on Reverb... to spare myself the embarrassment.

[1001gear]

Wasn't whining. You hate China? 🤪 Just curious about the playback. The files themselves play alright on VLC and for my purposes, paste into DAW as is. The theory there is punch to the looper, paste into DAW, zero latency issues.

[daddymack]

No, I do not hate China. I did business with Chinese companies for over a decade, and I learned a lot about their approach to 'replication' of existing products. They do what they do and some is fine, some is junque. All I am suggesting is that there are limits to the quality of many of these low-end knock-off pedals, and I quickly learned if they do not perform as desired, replace them with something better. If they do not function properly, request replacement.

What exactly is the looper you purchased? Have you looked at user reviews to see if anyone else has this issue? Frankly, if it is not reproducing the 'image' identically, it is not working properly and should be reported to the manufacturer [or seller], and a replacement requested. The manufacturer may have a 'fix' for this, possibly, so it may be worth asking.

[1001gear]

It's branded Lekato - legato? the cat? Got it for around 40 bucks. They've since tacked on another 20. Has tuner, led loop lights, AND usb export. Last part was the whole idea. As far as I know, none of the premium brands have any such thing. I believe the treble issue is an impedance mismatch - line level hi res audio going into a high impedance guitar amp and speakers. IDK. The only klunky part is the unlimited undo means you can nuke and redo the overdubbed track repeatedly lol.

That and getting the loop to sit in time but that's just a chops thing. I have some success clicking on a pickup although my timing still needs work.

I think guitar track fidelity might be why boss and TC don't export files. Again IDK.

[daddymack]

looking over Amazon Reviews: 'Clean tones seemed fine on this but dirty or distorted tones seemed to lose separation when played back.'

'Sound while not perfect it is very usable'

But not your complaint.

I think you may have a lemon. These are designed primarily to be used with an amp, so it should not be limiting/filtering the treble. I would send it back and ask for a replacement.

There are, btw, two different versions of the Lekato Looper.

[1001gear]

Says it's suitable for backing tracks and it is the distortion that gets muffled. Must be the internal playback amp. The only format is 48k 24bit which is a little hot for guitar amp.