Whats wrong with our country!

[srp72ee]

You do realise that there were 100 people killed and over *200* seriously injured?? The number doesn't seem that big anymore does it, don't forget 1/3 goes to the lawyers. There were NO city officials (inspectors, fire marshall, that never did there job) that will ever be charged, not to mention they changed the local law making them non-liable.

 

 

It's apparent the "wrong" people were held accountable and that IS unfortunate. Fire marshalls and inspectors should be held to the same standards as engineers. Regardless if 1 or 100 people perished in the blaze, it's still an atrocity. But two wrongs still don't make it right - the bus company - really? I don't think so...

 

With everyone lawsuit happy, I carry supplemental professional liability insurance (in addition to what the employer already carries) on my wife since she is a pharmacist. The cost has skyrocketed over the last 10 years because of lawsuits. That insurance costs more than my home owners, auto, and sound system insurance policies together - and we've never used it! Everyone wants to sue the drug companies when something goes wrong, and yet they wonder why they can't afford their pills? It's not rocket science.

[mshifflett]

Please please please. It's probably completely sound and appropriate.

Okay, well please no one get offended if you are or know a lawyer. My girlfriend told me this one and I am sure that you all have heard it before....

What is the difference between a dead animal on the road and a dead lawyer on the road...? ...the animal has skid marks in front of it

[kevinnem]

How do you compete? You drop a dime on them with the local tax authority. You narc them out regarding their method of "payment". Unless there's a detail I'm missing, there's no reason to sit back silently while your lunch is being eaten by these criminals. Then you offer 20 cents on the dollar for their now unused gear. "If he pulls a knife, you pull a gun. If he puts one of yours in the hospital, put one of his in the morgue. That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone.":D

 

 

you know craig, I have throught about it. I really have, I am honestly kinda wondering how far these guys would go though. I don't think they are above slashing my tires, and burning my house down. Sketchy folks...

 

 

thinking alot about how to "compete" with these guys.

[BillESC]

What do you call a hundred lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

*

*

*

A good start.

[twostone]

It's apparent the "wrong" people were held accountable and that IS unfortunate. Fire marshalls and inspectors should be held to the same standards as engineers. Regardless if 1 or 100 people perished in the blaze, it's still an atrocity. But two wrongs still don't make it right - the bus company - really? I don't think so... With everyone lawsuit happy, I carry supplemental professional liability insurance (in addition to what the employer already carries) on my wife since she is a pharmacist. The cost has skyrocketed over the last 10 years because of lawsuits. That insurance costs more than my home owners, auto, and sound system insurance policies together - and we've never used it! Everyone wants to sue the drug companies when something goes wrong, and yet they wonder why they can't afford their pills? It's not rocket science.

How bout going after the FDA to? which allow the drug company to sell bad drugs in the first place.

[mshifflett]

What do you call a hundred lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? * * * A good start.

[RoadRanger]

The Bronze Rat
===========

A Tourist walked into a curio shop in San Francisco. While looking around at the exotic merchandise, he noticed a very lifelike, life-sized, bronze statue of a rat. It had no price tag, but was so incredibly striking the tourist decided he must have it. He took it to the old shop owner and asked,

[BillESC]

I like that.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

you know craig, I have throught about it. I really have, I am honestly kinda wondering how far these guys would go though. I don't think they are above slashing my tires, and burning my house down. Sketchy folks... thinking alot about how to "compete" with these guys.

 

 

 

Anonymous information to the right authorities. No need to advertise your actions.

[picker13]

I have a good friend who is an attorney. He is a good person. We used to be in a band together back in my college days.

A couple of years ago we were chatting, and I said "What if a person came to you and had a completely worthless and warrantless case they wanted to bring. The issue had absolutely no basis in law and there was no way you could win the case or recoup your legal expenses. What would you tell the person?"

His reply? "How much money do they have?"

[lifeloverwg]

Well Bill most folks knows exactly what wrong with our country Greed and corruption. it's been going on for 3 decades and the snowball effect is getting more noticeable now. Only by numbers can the public make them be held accountable for their actions and so far that ain't happen yet. Only thing that's happen is folks noticed devalue of their American dream life style. Majority of them are adapting to the devaluation of the American dream lifestyle. Instead demanding for accountability to the very official that cause the devaluation. Bill, remember back in the 60's during the Viet Nam area and the youth gather by numbers demanded accountability, Then MLK came along demanded accountablity. Nixon screwed the pooch to all Americans and his butt got impeached. He did manage to Abolish the Gold standard which did away with limitation of borrowing now our government can borrow ungodly amounts because their no gold standard to back up what they borrow. Most of are youth now a days are to busy on twitter and facebook and have been taught entitlement practices which make them lazy. Our only solution is by numbers and demand accountability again until then it's business as usual. just my 2 cents worth

Don't think that I have much of anything positive to say about our current Congress, but greed and corruption have been present in out system for well longer than the last 3 decades.

The Gilded Age is usually considered the most politically corrupt period in American history, with Grant's presidency often leading the lists of most corrupt administrations. Unfortunately, I do agree that all three branches of Government seem to be hell bent on supplanting the Gilded Age's lofty status.

One of the few hopeful signs of the last election was the marked increase in young voter participation, although it's too early to call that any kind of a lasting trend as there have been upticks in the past that failed to stick.

Winston

[RoadRanger]

Anonymous information to the right authorities. No need to advertise your actions.

I'd be ABSOLUTELY SURE they ain't "connected" first. 'round these parts someone getting lots of business (especially from government entities and the good ol' boys network) while being that blatantly non-compliant with the laws wouldn't be someone you'd want to mess with.

[MarkGifford-1]

I'd be ABSOLUTELY SURE they ain't "connected" first. 'round these parts someone getting lots of business (especially from government entities and the good ol' boys network) while being that blatantly non-compliant with the laws wouldn't be someone you'd want to mess with.

[RHA]

It is important to remember though, that it is JURORS, not judges or lawyers that award these ridiculous judgments. It is the fear of what a jury might do that causes cases to settle rather be decided by a jury. Trial lawyers say that only a fool can be tried by a jury of his peers. If jurys did not make these obviously stupid awards, lawyers would not bring meritless cases to court.

 

 

I realize that what I'm about to say will be met with ridicule. But before I say it, and to hopefully help put my opinion into some kind of realistic perspective, I'll start by agreeing with the following points:

 

1. There are some frivolous lawsuits filed (which I define as a meritless case filed just to collect nuisance money from an innocent, usually insured defendant).

 

2. There are some really unscrupulous, dishonest lawyers in this country (just as there are some really unscrupulous, dishonest doctors, car mechanics, salespeople, bar owners, musicians, etc., etc).

 

3. I agree that it is absurd that the transportation companies and JBL were named in this suit.

 

Here, now are some facts:

 

Frivolous lawsuits make up a miniscule percentage of the case filings in this country's courts, and virtually 100% of them are dismissed with the plaintiff receiving nothing. You don't hear about these because when the system works, the press doesn't report it--its not news, nor should it be. Any system that allows its citizens or businesses to sue for wrongdoing, whether based on contract breaches, interference with business, or injuries/death, and which relies on those same citizens to decide the outcome of the case, necessarily carries with it the risk that a small part of the enterprise will occasionally work improperly. Taking this miniscule percentage of total cases filed, it is true that in some of them, insurance companies or big pocket defendants will pay relatively small amounts to avoid the time, expense and hassle of a defense. But the amounts paid out in these types of {censored} cases are not worth the time and cost of bringing suit, which explains why frivolous suits are a tiny percentage of the courts' dockets.

 

In some cases, the potential damages are so large that fear and irrational decision-making play a bigger role in the case than they should. This fire case is a good example, and represents a terrible, large scale tragedy that fortunately doesn't happen all that often. When it does, you have the reality that there are 100 dead people, with angry, grieving families who are upset that due to someone's stupidity or carelessness, their wives, husbands, daughters, etc.who went out for an evening of fun, never came back, with 200 others likely seriously injured for the rest of their lives. Many of you likely already realize that these folks should have the right to be reimbursed for medical expenses, lost wages, future medical and rehab costs--and for the deceased, future lost earnings that would have come to the family. These expenses will get covered one way or another--either through existing health insurance, life insurance, diability insurance, or if nothing is in place, by the government. If none of the survivors or injured filed suit, then each of the insurance companies who paid out benefits would sue any possible wrongdoer for reimbursement. And because the injuries/deaths in a mass tort disaster are so extensive, there needs to be a large pool of funds to take care of these losses. In these relatively rare circumstances, there certainly exists the tendency to reach any possible deep pocket to enlarge the pool of available funds. On this point I agree with everyone who thinks it is wrong for companies like JBL and the transportation company to be dragged into the suit.

 

The amounts should also be put into perspective. "More than 70 million" is a lot of cash under most circumstances. But if that's being spread out among 300 victims, that's about 230k each for either death or serious lifetime injuries. Let's see--forgetting all about past or future medical expenses, case expenses, and the typically frowned-upon awards for pain and suffering, that amounts to about 6 years of income for someone making 50k a year. If its a relatively young person, earning a decent income to support their family, who would have had another 25 years or so of work expectancy, its not that much money.

 

I'm not saying that JBL (or its insurer, as the case may be) should have forked over a large sum of money here, or that you all shouldn't be upset that it occurred. I am suggesting, however, that taking this one case, and the other examples cited, as "proof" that the entire court systemis broken or that "all lawsuits are lotteries" is damn poor forensics on your part.

 

I could go on and on, and I realize that it likely won't change anyone's thinking on this issue. So let me leave you with this thought. I read this forum because, as a weekend musician who knows little about the intricacies of sound reinforcment, I'm eager to learn about the subject from folks who do this work on a daily basis. I can't imagine any situation in which I'd ever feel comfortable telling any of the experienced forumites here what's wrong with their opinions on SR issues. I simply don't know enough about the subject compared to those of you who work at this every day. It therefore continues to surprise me that otherwise very smart people would make a lot of absolutist, conclusory statements about a system that they are not substantially involved with and which has its own intricacies, about which they know quite little. Its the kind of trap that leads to popgadget's claim that juries routinely award ridiculous amounts. If you really stopped to examine this statement, you'd ask what it is that would cause 12 ordinary people, just by placing them on a jury, to suddenly become raving, irrational lunatic decision-makers? The reality is that in almost all cases, they make the right decision, and award appropriate amounts on par with the harm done. But again, you guys only read and hear about those few cases where the jury got it wrong. I can assure you they usually get it right, and the system usually works.

 

To those of you who have been subject to either bad legal advice, short-sighted and irrational insurance company decision-making or the dishonest, "in it just for the greed" lawyers on the other side, you have my empathy, and I agree that you got caught in a {censored}ty situation. But taking these examples and turning it into "the whole system's broken" argument ignores reality.

 

But I do think some of those lawyer jokes are funny.

[Craig Vecchione]

I'd be ABSOLUTELY SURE they ain't "connected" first. 'round these parts someone getting lots of business (especially from government entities and the good ol' boys network) while being that blatantly non-compliant with the laws wouldn't be someone you'd want to mess with.

 

In Alberta Canada?

 

How 'bout I pay you a visit, eh?

[hibbasc1]

Bill - I agree with you. Unfounded lawsuits, outsourcing of jobs with American employment between 10% - 16% (depending on how you calculate it) translates into America on a downward slippery slide.

While this lawsuit may be well founded, bringing JBL into it because of speaker foam? Come on. If that's the case everything that's remotely flammable in that room was included in the lawsuit? (rhetorical).

[Vinny D]

While this lawsuit may be well founded, bringing JBL into it because of speaker foam? Come on. If that's the case everything that's remotely flammable in that room was included in the lawsuit? (rhetorical).

 

 

EVERYTHING and anything that was associated with the venue was involved in the lawsuit.

[BillESC]

In the suit with Curtis Mayfield, his lawyer used the shotgun approach.

The lighting contractor was named along with:

Me, Entertainment Systems Corporation.
The New York Parks Department
Coca Cola (sponsor)
Lays Potato Chips (sponsor)
Two local councilmen
The mayor of NY
Genie Industries
Bash Theatrical (sold the lighting contractor the second pair of Genie lifts)
The truss manufacturer.
The promotor
and at least a dozen other sponsors and hardly involved entities.

I was ultimately released from the suit but I do know Genie Industries ended up settling out of court for an undisclosed amount. This brought about the electrical interlock of the outriggers in Genie products that about doubled the base cost of their products.

What happened to the lighting contractor? I read every page of the depositions taken with regard to the suit (over 150 pounds of paper) and it turns out Stage Lights Inc. was not incorporated at all but simply a guy when asked why he called his company Stage Lights Inc., stated, "because it sounded better."

I rest my case.

[Dogoth]

Well Bill most folks knows exactly what wrong with our country Greed and corruption. it's been going on for 3 decades and the snowball effect is getting more noticeable now. Only by numbers can the public make them be held accountable for their actions and so far that ain't happen yet. Only thing that's happen is folks noticed devalue of their American dream life style. Majority of them are adapting to the devaluation of the American dream lifestyle. Instead demanding for accountability to the very official that cause the devaluation. Bill, remember back in the 60's during the Viet Nam area and the youth gather by numbers demanded accountability, Then MLK came along demanded accountablity. Nixon screwed the pooch to all Americans and his butt got impeached. He did manage to Abolish the Gold standard which did away with limitation of borrowing now our government can borrow ungodly amounts because their no gold standard to back up what they borrow. Most of are youth now a days are to busy on twitter and facebook and have been taught entitlement practices which make them lazy. Our only solution is by numbers and demand accountability again until then it's business as usual. just my 2 cents worth

That was $2k worth

You are absolutly correct that we are not holding the corrupt accountable. As a matter of fact we are giving them our tax money.

If you had a business with a manager, and that manager almost ran your business into the ground. You might borrow some money and try to bail your business back out (as long as it still seemed viable) but the manager would be history. We have for all intents and purposes left the same greedy folks in power, barely made any changes to the rule book and set them loose with a fresh batch of money so thay can dig that middle class hole just a little bit deeper.

Sorry. I'll stop now. This probably belongs in the political forum.

[agedhorse]

RHA - you make some good points. I think one of the issues with frivolous suits is that the cost to defend is significant just to get to the point of a pre-trail dismissal.

I was sued as the electrical engineer of record on a project about 12 years after completion. This was a municipal project and it was determined by the paperwork that I kept (the owner, a city vlaimed it never existed) that everything I designed and the way the project was completed was above and beyond what would be considered reasonable. The reason for the injury was the disabling and removal of 2 seperate safety systems as well as additional operator error and facility oversight. We were immediately dismissed, but it cost my insurance company thousands of dollars to defend me to that point. My insurance rates skyrocketed, therefore it cost me directly.

[RHA]

Aged Horse--I'm not denying that situations like yours exist, in which you did everything right yet still found yourself sued. I may be guilty of being a bit more cavalier than most folks about the hassle and expense of getting sued, as I used to be involved in litigation as a major part of my job, and my mediation practice at this point revolves largely around lawsuits and related disputes. Having said that, I am aware of the problem confronted by folks in your position, and I know that it really sucks to be dragged into a suit for absolutely no valid reason. I was just making the point that its a relatively miniscule aspect of the entire system, and many are advocating throwing the entire babe out with the bathwater.

Your situation raises an interesting issue: for you the court system actually worked, as you say you were immediately dismissed out of this frivolous claim against you. The problem wasn't with the court system but with the liability insurance industry. In fairness, insurance rates should be based on risk and experience of the insured--if you've done nothing wrong, your rates shouldn't be affected simply because someone has wrongfully sued you. Unfortunately, insurance companies have been routinely zapping folks' rates for the past 20 years or so simply by vitue of having a claim file opened, regardless of fault. You see this in auto, homeowners, professional liability--just about all lines of insurance. Insurance people will tell you that this is necessary due to the huge increase in lawsuits filed and the huge increase in verdicts, but these claims simply aren't true when simple things like inflation are factored in. It is likely true that the average civil verdict has gone up 50% since, say, the 1950's, but how is that any different than the cost of gas, automobiles, food, or live sound equipment? (come to think of it, the only prices that haven't gone up are gigging rates for musicians!).

As bad as some of you think the court system is, you should really take a look at the insurance industry, which I would argue was the real culprit in your case. Take a look at the profit margins on the claims side of the insurance business and you'll see that this industry is booming. Years ago, your rates wouldn't have gone up if you weren't at fault, and you would have probably felt that the system worked fine--you were dismissed early out of the case and you would have had no large financial impact. The real travesty in the current climate is that the system still works pretty well in terms of ferreting out those frivolous claims, but due to the practices of the insurance industry, people get zapped financially through insurance rates just to get out of a bad case. I'd argue that's an insurance industry abuse, not a problem with the system.

And by the way, next time anybody gets dragged into a stupid lawsuit that really has no merit, ask your attorney about the possibility of a so-called "Rule 11" sanctions request against the other attorney. That rule, which applies in all federal courts and most state courts, says that attorneys must act in good faith and have a factual basis for the allegations they file in court. This is one way the system can deal with bad lawyers and frivolous suits, but unfortunately the rule is underused, most often because your attorney doesn't want to risk pissing off the other guy or having a counterclaim hurled against him/her by the other attorney. But if clients pressed for such things more often, the requests would get some attention. People should really push their lawyers to file these types of motions in truly frivolous cases, as the available sanctions include reimbursement of costs and attorney fees.

Anyway, thanks for emphasizing a very valid point. Hopefully my rant is over, though one should never trust any lawyer who tells you he's done talking...

[BillESC]

Andy,

I know how it is to feel like a victim every month. In the first year we were in our new building a couple teen age kids decided to rob us. The stole a pick up truck and drove it through one of the roll up doors of our warehouse. They took about a grand of car audio gear but caused over 20K in damage (they actually entered the building at such a speed that they hit a 48' long row of industrial shelving causing it to topple. This resulted in a large amount of broken inventory.) You can even see where the end of the shelving original was by the skid marks.

My insurance covered all of the losses and immediately raised my rates.

[stix 518]

Sure, let's all blame the insurance industry...

How about "personal responsibility"? Whatever happened to that? Everybody wants to be compensated for their loss despite the fact that perhaps their actions actually caused the loss.

Example: Order a hot coffee, hot coffee spills while driving, lawsuit against company that sold you what you wanted - hot coffee - multimillion dollar settlement AND the words "caution, contents may be hot!" printed on a cup designed and sold for HOT COFFEE!

Station Nightclub Fire notwithstanding (I had friends who attended and others who died there). As a non-professional (legal-wise) I see certain individuals with specific liability in that case. The band for using pyro in such a confined space (including the crew that set it up); the fire marshall for not doing his job; the club owners for not having adequate supervision AND limiting ingress and egress. End of story. Perhaps one or two other parties but this spray and pray method of naming everyone and his brother in a lawsuit is totally ridiculous. What the h did JBL have to do with that fire? NOTHING. The bus company? NOTHING yet they pay. Do you think the club owners paid that kind of money? Uh uh. Don't think so. This country needs a complete overhaul of the Tort system. It's getting totally crazy. Someone here said something about The Lottery. It's that way with everything... car insurance, Worker's Compensation... you name it. Ever heard of Dr. Summeroff and Dr. Winteroff?

Aaaaaah, it's disgusting. **end rant**

Stix

[Craig Vecchione]

No matter how you look at it, it always comes back to the lawyers.

[picker13]

I think the vast majority of people would acknowledge there is a problem. Definitely any business owner would. Unfortunately, the mechanism to fix the problem is our legislative branch of government, and it is comprised of at least 90% attorneys. This and plaintiff attorney lobbyists/PAC's that are willing to grease the wheels with millions, means we'll never see real, meaningful reform. And this is truly sad because our national and individual economic welfare depends on the success of business, primarily small business.