Tendency for feedback

[Ryan.]

 

A 12' by 12' room? Feedback? Just turn down You're too loud, oh wait you probably can't hear over the music, JUST TURN DOWN! Don't send the singer's FX unit to anywhere but the mains. I think those pedals work best for people that really know what they're doing and don't really need them - use them as a tool, not a crutch. Even crummy moniotrs should get loud enough for rehearsal - maybe a new approach to rehearsing is in order. It's not a gig, it's a time to work things out. Okay, I'll stop before this turns into a rant - oops too late:)

 

 

1) You're right. We do practice way too loud.

 

2) Its really difficult to get the energy level without practicing loud.

 

3) Our drummer plays too loud (I've threatened him with brushes)

 

4) No really, the energy suffers when we're playing quiet.

[Shaster]

 

1) You're right. We do practice way too loud. 2) Its really difficult to get the energy level without practicing loud. 3) Our drummer plays too loud (I've threatened him with brushes) 4) No really, the energy suffers when we're playing quiet.

 

 

Until you learn how, then you'll be able to play quiet at about the same evergy level, it takes practice - pun intended.

 

I remember years ago going to a recording studio here in town to pick up somebody's gear for an upcoming gig.

 

At the time the guitar player from Loverboy was recording for one of their upcoming albums. He was using some tiny little amp, but had it sounding like a wall of Marshalls. Control, it's all about control - and still being able to hear when you're fifty.

 

Watch your ears, they're your money makers.

[jwlussow]

 

I am going to explain Road Ranger's idea a little more clearly. He suggested that you use a Y cable to take a second signal from the mic BEFORE the FX pedal. This leaves you with a dry signal and your regular vocal signal. This way you can put the dry signal into its own channel for monitor use only. This allows you to control how much of the FX signal is in the monitors because you can blend the wet and the dry signals. This is the most realistic solution to your problem. Your singer might have to live with a little less FX in the monitors, but it's a good compromise. let me know if this makes sense, best of luck

 

 

Why is that easier then using the channel out and feeding two other channels with the wet signal?

[dboomer]

 

A huge problem I have is the singer uses a TC Helicon pedal. (Create not correct) When it is on and plugged in its feedback central. ?

 

 

It's adding gain to the channel and you are simply louder and more likely to feedback with it.

[MarkGifford-1]

 

I remember years ago going to a recording studio here in town to pick up somebody's gear for an upcoming gig. At the time the guitar player from Loverboy was recording for one of their upcoming albums. He was using some tiny little amp, but had it sounding like a wall of Marshalls. Control, it's all about control - and still being able to hear when you're fifty.

 

 

There's a difference between a small amp cranked up and sounding big, and a drummer needing to actually hit the drums, to get the proper sound/feel.

 

I've yet to run into a rock drummer, in the studio or live, that didn't play pretty darn loud. The best ones have a lot of finesse, but quiet, they aren't.

 

 

 

To expect to get the same effect w/rods or brushes, at a "talk over" level is not really possible, IMHO.

 

You can use smaller sticks or quieter drums, etc. to minimize the volume, but if you expect to really rock it and get good tone out of them, you've got to smack those things.

 

If you're talking jazz, or traditional contry, I'll agree - you can get a good groove going w/o really hitting hard.

[Ryan.]

Siiiick video. Those look like some expensive headphones... Nice to see they use the Costco moving blanket to dampen though... there is hope!

[phsycobass]

 

Why is that easier then using the channel out and feeding two other channels with the wet signal?

 

 

Valid point. Your method seems to assume that the vocalist is in close proximity to the mixer. In practice this might work fine, but at a gig it requires a lot more cable. If the vocalist wants to operate the pedal from the stage and the mixer is at FOH, then you would have to use up a return as well as three channels. Other than that, your idea is just as workable as mine.

[YH78]

Using higher quality monitors and microphones does help some.

The biggest mistake I see with people having feedback issues is improper gain structure. The second would be microphone placement and selection.

I also here some people say "I am not worried about it, the feedback destroyer will catch it."

IMO, those things are a waste of money. Proper gain structure, proper microphone/monitor/loudspeaker placement, and knowledge are the best way to combat dreaded feedback. As a matter of fact, I would go as far to say that if you do those things the correct way, you will not have feedback unless you try to.

[jwlussow]

 

Valid point. Your method seems to assume that the vocalist is in close proximity to the mixer. In practice this might work fine, but at a gig it requires a lot more cable. If the vocalist wants to operate the pedal from the stage and the mixer is at FOH, then you would have to use up a return as well as three channels. Other than that, your idea is just as workable as mine.

 

 

If sound is at FOH, you would still need a dry send and two stereo sends to FOH. Your way adds a Y and saves a return. I'd rather have the return then a Y in my rig but I do see that both ways would work.

[phsycobass]

If sound is at FOH, you would still need a dry send and two stereo sends to FOH. Your way adds a Y and saves a return. I'd rather have the return then a Y in my rig but I do see that both ways would work.

 

Agreed, both ways make sense.

[tlbonehead]

. Last night at band practice I got so sick of ringing out the feedback in them that I shut them all off. I cranked our mains (the 153s) and NO feedback. Does a higher quality speaker have less of a tendency to FB? I'm pissed about the Ringer purchase, it was dumb and kneejerk cause I needed something without having the cash to make a better purchase. I'm on the fence about buying the k10s right now cause I know they aren't specifically designed for monitors. Can anyone give me a nice powered WEDGE, designed to be a stage monitor, for about $500 each?

is there a reason we should all know that?

[modulusman]

is there a reason we should all know that?

 

Look at all the threads that the OP has started. Not saying that is a bad thing because he is posting here to learn and has been asking some good questions.

[twostone]

 

is there a reason we should all know that?

 

 

Well Tom he's learning the limation on some of his gear.

[guitarjrh]

1) Get rid of the dang effects in the monitors

2) Be sure the channel gains are set properly

3) Control your stage/practice room volume so you don't need 130dB monitors

 

Seriously. I play in a rock cover band and we NEVER have feedback issues with monitors (or mains for that matter). Set 'em pretty much flat on the EQ. Nobody gets too loud on stage. Let the mains do the work. PFL the mikes to 0 dB. Everybody's happy. Trying to wring every last dB of gain out of the monitor system is what exacerbates feedback problems. It may be necessary with the pros, but certainly not with an average bar/wedding band IMO.

[jwlussow]

Look at all the threads that the OP has started. Not saying that is a bad thing because he is posting here to learn and has been asking some good questions.

 

Give tlbonehead a break. His Twins are in a serious funk. I don't think he should worry too much. I don't think the Sox can keep up this winning pace and Detroit will fade in August. Twins have a good solid team.

 

The OP is asking some great questions and seems willing to listen. That's nice for a change.

[boomerweps]

I tend to be honest and BLUNT!

 

WTF is with all those speakers in that room!

 

Part of the reason when you turn off the monitors and only run the mains is, yes, a bit better speakers. BUT it's also because you have LESS physical, acoustic paths interfering into the mics from all the straight and reflected paths. LESS speakers allows you to better position the speakers and the mics to better avoid feedback. Throw in the vocal FX into the mix and even more noise gets rerouted from the monitors to the mics through the monitors and again through the mics, the very process of feedback.

 

Many people use those powered Behringer wedges effectively, the B212 model in particular.

 

So start by treating the problem from a physical placement and acoustical direct/reflected path problem.

 

edit: That practice room would be optimal for a headphone distribution amp (Cheap behringer works fine) and everyone on muff type earphones. Feedback problem NUKED!!

 

Boomerweps

[tlbonehead]

Well Tom he's learning the limation on some of his gear.

I know. I just dodn't get the idea that we should all know upfront what monitors he is using. That's all.

[Telecruiser]

A 12 x 12 room?? What is the name of your band, "The Sardines"?? A loud band in a room that size is almost a mission impossible. Remember, energy is not in the how loud you play it is in the players dynamics.

[Shaster]

 

There's a difference between a small amp cranked up and sounding big, and a drummer needing to actually hit the drums, to get the proper sound/feel. I've yet to run into a rock drummer, in the studio or live, that didn't play pretty darn loud. The best ones have a lot of finesse, but quiet, they aren't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7nE-TdoW5Y To expect to get the same effect w/rods or brushes, at a "talk over" level is not really possible, IMHO. You can use smaller sticks or quieter drums, etc. to minimize the volume, but if you expect to really rock it and get good tone out of them, you've got to smack those things. If you're talking jazz, or traditional contry, I'll agree - you can get a good groove going w/o really hitting hard.

 

 

Two of the loudest drummers I've ever worked with can both tame their sounds for rehearsal, and that's what I'm really talking about. There's no need to show everybody what you've got, unless you're praticing for a big concert or tour, and then you're in a real rehearsal space.

 

But even having said that, I'll often see "B" level acts rehearsing in some of the same rehearsal rooms I use (like the "Rockspace" here in Van), and they don't practice at stadium volumes.

 

The fact that it's a 12' by 12' room already means there are serious compromises in effect. My vote is to compromise on the volume as well - YMMV.

[twostone]

 

There's a difference between a small amp cranked up and sounding big, and a drummer needing to actually hit the drums, to get the proper sound/feel. I've yet to run into a rock drummer, in the studio or live, that didn't play pretty darn loud. The best ones have a lot of finesse, but quiet, they aren't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7nE-TdoW5Y To expect to get the same effect w/rods or brushes, at a "talk over" level is not really possible, IMHO. You can use smaller sticks or quieter drums, etc. to minimize the volume, but if you expect to really rock it and get good tone out of them, you've got to smack those things. If you're talking jazz, or traditional contry, I'll agree - you can get a good groove going w/o really hitting hard.

 

 

That video reminds of a time where we use to jam at a drummer house that had us practicing in this tiny metal storage building and the PA gear we had at the time was all junk.

Kustom monitors, off brand vocal mics, plus the metal storage building had no kind of treatment. How ever it did have a fridge of ice cold beer. Anyway we ended giving up on trying to ring the wedges out because with our excessive loudness. We had 2 Marshall halfstacks, my ampeg bass stack and his power drumming style of playing. So there was no way in hell we could bring up the vocals loud enough without FB the 31 band EQ was useless mic and speaker placement was useless.

 

So I mention getting a headphone amp and cans for everybody and micing every body out and just monitor thru the headphone amp and cans,

because I remembered going to a studio and that's how we tracked cause everybody had cans on and a glass wall separating the drums from guitar and I was in the engineer booth DI-ed straight in and this is why I mentioned it. That pretty much ended our dilemma of FB plus saved our hearing and got us thru.

Just tossing you some bones if you can't control the volume and FB in the 12x12. You can always run a RCA cable off from the mixer tape out into a recorder to and record your practice that way you learn to balance your mix out better.

[Ryan.]

 

That video reminds of a time where we use to jam at a drummer house that had us practicing in this tiny metal storage building and the PA gear we had at the time was all junk. Kustom monitors, off brand vocal mics, plus the metal storage building had no kind of treatment. How ever it did have a fridge of ice cold beer. Anyway we ended giving up on trying to ring the wedges out because with our excessive loudness. We had 2 Marshall halfstacks, my ampeg bass stack and his power drumming style of playing. So there was no way in hell we could bring up the vocals loud enough without FB the 31 band EQ was useless mic and speaker placement was useless. So I mention getting a headphone amp and cans for everybody and micing every body out and just monitor thru the headphone amp and cans, because I remembered going to a studio and that's how we tracked cause everybody had cans on and a glass wall separating the drums from guitar and I was in the engineer booth DI-ed straight in and this is why I mentioned it. That pretty much ended our dilemma of FB plus saved our hearing and got us thru. Just tossing you some bones if you can't control the volume and FB in the 12x12. You can always run a RCA cable off from the mixer tape out into a recorder to and record your practice that way you learn to balance your mix out better.

 

 

I actually do have a 4 way headphone amp, and I DO like using it, BUT I can't talk the other bandmates into spending money on decent headphones, so they all complain when they can't hear anything. Drives me nuts.

 

 

OH, and the only reason I said everyone knows... is cause I've been posting a lot about my set up and so the regulars around here have been aware of my gear for a while.

 

Obviously EVERYONE was a bit overboard.

[Ryan.]

A 12 x 12 room?? What is the name of your band, "The Sardines"?? A loud band in a room that size is almost a mission impossible. Remember, energy is not in the how loud you play it is in the players dynamics.

 

Yeah dude, the size of the room sucks. The next step up is 20x12 which would be soooo much nicer. But we make it work... sorta.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

1) You're right. We do practice way too loud. 2) Its really difficult to get the energy level without practicing loud. 3) Our drummer plays too loud (I've threatened him with brushes) 4) No really, the energy suffers when we're playing quiet.

 

 

1. Turn down. You WILL suffer hearing damage. Tinnitis REALLY sucks.

 

2. energy? it's rehearsal. You need to concentrate on starting at the same time, having the right tempo, playing in the pocket, how you'll segue to the next song, etc. THAT's rehearsal. Energy is for the show, and for a show dress rehearsal, and besides all that, your energy shouldn't be tied to volume.

 

3. Threaten him with dismissal. Mean it.

 

4. No, really, tinnitis sucks. Nobody cares about your energy during rehearsal, because no paying customers are there. Get your arrangements worked out, and play tight, not loud, during rehearsal. Shows are when you can and should be a rock star. Rehearsal is work, and should feel like work.

[Ryan.]

1. Turn down. You WILL suffer hearing damage. Tinnitis REALLY sucks. 2. energy? it's rehearsal. You need to concentrate on starting at the same time, having the right tempo, playing in the pocket, how you'll segue to the next song, etc. THAT's rehearsal. Energy is for the show, and for a show dress rehearsal, and besides all that, your energy shouldn't be tied to volume. 3. Threaten him with dismissal. Mean it. 4. No, really, tinnitis sucks. Nobody cares about your energy during rehearsal, because no paying customers are there. Get your arrangements worked out, and play tight, not loud, during rehearsal. Shows are when you can and should be a rock star. Rehearsal is work, and should feel like work.

 

I know...