Members Ryan. Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 Okay so everyone knows I have Ringer monitors. Last night at band practice I got so sick of ringing out the feedback in them that I shut them all off. I cranked our mains (the 153s) and NO feedback. Does a higher quality speaker have less of a tendency to FB? I'm pissed about the Ringer purchase, it was dumb and kneejerk cause I needed something without having the cash to make a better purchase. I'm on the fence about buying the k10s right now cause I know they aren't specifically designed for monitors. Can anyone give me a nice powered WEDGE, designed to be a stage monitor, for about $500 each? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MarkGifford-1 Posted June 25, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2010 One thing I've learned about crappy/cheap gear: It will sound bad for a while, then it will break. I don't have any options for you, but it seems to me that it'd be easier setup-wise, to use passive monitors, so you don't need to run 2 cables to each separate box. I guess it depends on how many discrete mixes you need. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 Generally better quality speakers might have better feedback rejection. Remember feedback is a pretty simple concept. It is a loop between input and output, ie the mic is picking up the speaker. Proper EQ and placement of the mic and speaker goes a long way to solving feedback problems. Better quality mics also have a huge effect on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 There's no good reason you can't tame the 'ringers. And yes, generally higher quality speaker = less FB. K10's make fine monitors - buy them if you can . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philw44 Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 What is your process for ringing out the monitors? How many cuts are you making? What mic are you using? What position is the monitor in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted June 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 What is your process for ringing out the monitors? How many cuts are you making? What mic are you using? What position is the monitor in? Okay, first we're in a 12x12 practice room that is padded on all the walls and the floor with carpet padding. (Our singer is in flooring) The monitors are on the floor face each singer from behind his mic except the drummer who has his monitor on a stand facing him. We're using e935s for mics. I run the aux outs of the MixWiz into 3 GEQs. On the EQs I have the low cut switch engaged and the switch that doubles the depth of the cut. Then the mix goes from EQs to the mons, which have gain/high/low all set at midnight. One at a time I start turning up a monitor and as feed back comes in I cut the offending freq. I do that until I'm up passed the volume I need, and I bring the gain back down. A huge problem I have is the singer uses a TC Helicon pedal. (Create not correct) When it is on and plugged in its feedback central. When I get frustrated and make him take it out, everything is fine. ANd of course there is no way to put the pedal into the mix without it being sent to the monitors as well. Does this process sound right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 A huge problem I have is the singer uses a TC Helicon pedal. (Create not correct) When it is on and plugged in its feedback central. When I get frustrated and make him take it out, everything is fine.Monitors should have little to (preferably) no FX in them. Yous guys are gettin' what you deserve I'm afraid. If you MUST use that pedal use a "Y" adapter on the mic into it and send the dry signal to another channel on the mixer just for the monitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 How are you inputting the Helicon? Through an insert? You can use one of the channels as the FX channel and control the pedal separately in the auxes and FOH. You can also insert it into aux 5 or 6 and do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted June 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 Well the Helicon has stereo outs. So I use one XLR into channel 6 and one XLR into channel 7. Then I pan the channels left and right. Is one of these outs clean? I don't know much about his pedal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted June 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 Here is a drawing of our set up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 Well the Helicon has stereo outs. So I use one XLR into channel 6 and one XLR into channel 7. Then I pan the channels left and right. Is one of these outs clean? I don't know much about his pedal.I'm pretty sure neither are clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted June 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 I'm pretty sure neither are clean. Yeah I don't think so either. Was my process for ringing out the monitors correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MarkGifford-1 Posted June 25, 2010 Moderators Share Posted June 25, 2010 Here is a drawing of our set up: Why on earth do you have the mains set up in a room that size? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted June 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 Why on earth do you have the mains set up in a room that size? Lol, We have to store them there so they are there whether we are using them or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted June 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 Can anyone tell me if my process for rining out the monitors was right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fishmanrod Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 I think your process is right, it's how I do it. To get best effect I have the musician stand in front of the mic, mouth open, fingers in their ears (and I laugh at them at this point) and bring up the gain, cut what is feeding back, then go again till I can pretty much rip their head off without feedback, THEN reduce the gain to acceptable level. I worked with heavy effects on the vocals 2 bands ago, and what I always did was ring out the feedback WITH the effect peddle on. There are two issues, how the effect colors the frequency range, and how much gain it adds. I know vocalists like the effects in the monitors and if you must have that, then you will need to take the time to ring them out WITH the effect on. Same gig as I spoke about above, the vocalist was a bit nutty, would point his mic at the monitor, at the crowd, fall down in front of the monitor as part of the act. I usually took upwards of 15 minutes ringing out his monitor, with him doing all these nutty things, so we would NOT have feedback during the performance. It was a lot of work, and every room was different, but after him screaming at me about feedback, I told him so shut up and stand there and I will fix it, but it would take a while, fingers in ears, mouth open, be part of the solution, NOT part of the problem, a-hole. And it worked. So maybe just try that, making sure you ring out WITH the effect on. Oh, and maybe reduce the effect a bit, it always sounds more intense in the mains, less is more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted June 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 Thanks... I'll definitely add the fingers in ears part. They're always mad at me when the speakers howl at them like its my fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 25, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted June 25, 2010 Thanks... I'll definitely add the fingers in ears part. They're always mad at me when the speakers howl at them like its my fault. It IS your fault. Develop a light touch on the faders, and listen for the "ringing" sound (hence the term "ringing out") as the system goes unstable right before feedback. Work a little more slowly, and you'll hear this, and with a tiny bit of practice you can get it to "sit" right on the edge of feedback. Pick out the frequency, and EQ it down a bit. To answer your post #1 question: yes, better speakers usually have much better gain before feedback, because they are flatter overall, and have few or no frequency spikes. Spikes make it difficult to get good gain, and more and worse ones make it a frustrating excercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 If you are running the monitors through an Aux, you are able to have wet FOH and dry mons. The fact that you don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phsycobass Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 Well the Helicon has stereo outs. So I use one XLR into channel 6 and one XLR into channel 7. Then I pan the channels left and right. Is one of these outs clean? I don't know much about his pedal. I am going to explain Road Ranger's idea a little more clearly. He suggested that you use a Y cable to take a second signal from the mic BEFORE the FX pedal. This leaves you with a dry signal and your regular vocal signal. This way you can put the dry signal into its own channel for monitor use only. This allows you to control how much of the FX signal is in the monitors because you can blend the wet and the dry signals. This is the most realistic solution to your problem. Your singer might have to live with a little less FX in the monitors, but it's a good compromise. let me know if this makes sense, best of luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted June 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 If you are running the monitors through an Aux, you are able to have wet FOH and dry mons. The fact that you don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 The ideal monitor for me is one that has an identical freq response over it's coverage area, and with very good pattern control. It must also be loud, low profile, low distortion, smooth response at the crossover point, have a heavy gauge grill, be light weight, cuddle me at night and make me coffee in the morning. Yes, higher end monitors are more stable over the coverage area and less prone to feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted June 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 I am going to explain Road Ranger's idea a little more clearly. He suggested that you use a Y cable to take a second signal from the mic BEFORE the FX pedal. This leaves you with a dry signal and your regular vocal signal. This way you can put the dry signal into its own channel for monitor use only. This allows you to control how much of the FX signal is in the monitors because you can blend the wet and the dry signals. This is the most realistic solution to your problem. Your singer might have to live with a little less FX in the monitors, but it's a good compromise.let me know if this makes sense,best of luck Thanks! I didn't even think about this, its a perfect option. I know he doesn't need the fx in his monitors so its great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phsycobass Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 Thanks! I didn't even think about this, its a perfect option. I know he doesn't need the fx in his monitors so its great! Glad I was able to help! (thanks RR too) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted June 25, 2010 Members Share Posted June 25, 2010 A 12' by 12' room? Feedback? Just turn down, you're too loud. Oh wait you probably can't hear over the music, JUST TURN DOWN! Don't send the singer's FX unit to anywhere but the mains. I think those pedals work best for people that really know what they're doing and don't really need them - use them as a tool, not a crutch. And even average monitors should get loud enough for rehearsal - maybe a new approach to rehearsing is in order. It's not a gig, it's a time to work things out. Okay, I'll stop before this turns into a rant - oops too late:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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