FCC to protect wireless mics

[dboomer]

So how does this work?

 

You need to find the two nearest unused by TV station channels closest to channel 37. This may or may not be 36 and 38.

 

In Los Angeles this will likely be channel 30 (566-572 MHz) and channel 40 (626-632 Mhz). These channels will be off limits to TVBDs (white space devices). There may be some space between 500 MHz and 470Mhz where portable TVBDs will be restricted. But fixed base ones and public safety radio can be operating there so maybe yes, maybe no (especially in major metro areas).

 

Would your systems work here? You probably can't tune to both channels so your current system will only work on 1 channel. With expensive radios you might get 12 wireless channels running. With $500 units maybe 8 simultaneously. You will need to hope that no one else will be operating wireless near to you cuz you'll have to share.

 

To see what channels are open in your area go to www.fccinfo.com

[dboomer]

Is there an opportunity for some sort of digital wireless?

:lol: You think?

 

There is no one answer that will fit all. You CAN just get out of the TV bands.

 

There are units that work at 902-928 mHz, 2.4GHz and 5Ghz right now. They have limited channel count and digital will always have some latency but your floor wedge to your ear already has more latency so I guess it's not an insurmountable problem.

 

Digital alone (at this stage) isn't always out of the TV bands, so those units may not help.

[dboomer]

 

Washington is so bad now that it makes me remember the Viet Nam war years fondly, if that tells you what I think of this administration.

 

 

This isn't about Washington, Congress or the FCC. They are simply reacting to customer and market demands. They are not the bad guys. When we switched to cars the guys selling horseshoes went out of business. Do you wanna go back?

 

Apple sells about a million iPads a month (compared to maybe a million or two wireless mics in the US). People want these devices, even though we don't yet know exactly what they are. Get used to it ... you will soon only see the tops of peoples heads.

[agedhorse]

I still buy horse shoes, and plenty of them. I have a better choice in horse shoes manufacturers than I have in wireless mic manufacturers.

 

Horse owners were not prohibited from using their horses by the government when cars came along, and it took about 30 years before cars were "commonly" in use. About 1/2 a generation lifespan. Horse owners are still not prohibited from using their horses...

[Axisplayer]

I am use to it and know these numbers well. I have worked for 25 years in intellectual property protection of IT inventions. I interact at a corporate level with many worldwide IT companies, although i work FOR the federal government. Understanding the market, the current status of IT, and in many cases the future of it, is a daily responsibility.

 

I personally believe the government should mandate that the FCC will NOT be allowed to continue to license spectrum to the highest bidder to the exclusion of others. It belongs to everyone and should not be looked on as a source of revenue.

 

I do blame the government, and think that the FCC IS the bad guy. it is in their control to just say no.

[StratGuy22]

I am use to it and know these numbers well. I have worked for 25 years in intellectual property protection of IT inventions. I interact at a corporate level with many worldwide IT companies, although i work FOR the federal government. Understanding the market, the current status of IT, and in many cases the future of it, is a daily responsibility. I personally believe the government should mandate that the FCC will NOT be allowed to continue to license spectrum to the highest bidder to the exclusion of others. It belongs to everyone and should not be looked on as a source of revenue. I do blame the government, and think that the FCC IS the bad guy. it is in their control to just say no.

 

 

Are the FCC people appointed or elected? Elected officials usually don't know much about tech stuff, other than what lobbyists tell them (I assume) so Joe blow congressman probably thinks protecting 2 channels is enough, without really understanding the implications.

 

The nice thing about the US ststem is that any idiot can be elected into office. It's just unfortunate that this is usually the case.

 

[Tomm Williams]

True that! The FCC is actually legalizing yous guys and GIVING you spectrum, not taking any away. My stuff has always been legal .

 

RR

 

What type of wireless units are you using?

 

TW

[RoadRanger]

 

What type of wireless units are you using?

Many brands can operate on these frequencies:

http://www.benonis.net/wireless-mic-faq/

 

Do I need a license to use a wireless microphone in the US? Additionally, there are eight frequencies, commonly referred to as the

[RoadRanger]

Of further interest from the website I linked to above:

 

White Space Devices In the fall of 2008, the Federal Communications Commission approved the use of low-power, personal communications devices that will operate in the television braodcast bands. These devices, called

[dboomer]

I still buy horse shoes, and plenty of them.

 

Yes ... but I sure the line to buy them is really short.

 

Your wireless mics between ch 14 - 51 will not be prohibited. It will be like trying to ride your horse on a busy city street. Probably not illegal, but not practical.

[dboomer]

RoadRanger-

 

As to the 169-172 mHz reference ... these are the old VHF TV channels. So yes, if you can find a mic that's worth a crap down there it is legal to use. There ARE still some TV stations working down there so it won't work everywhere but the bottom line is there aren't many units available here that are of any quality. Manufacturers could start building them again. Also everythin I know of that works down here are single frequency units taht cannot be tuned.

 

As to 900 Mhz - He's only talk ing about the STL band at 944-956 mHz. These frequencies are legal and will remain free of white space devices. But these are satellite uplink channels used by TV stations and are highly licensed bands. The temporary lifting of license requirements does not apply here.

 

That said there is a license free band at 902-928 MHz. This is an iSM band (Industrial, Scientific, Medical) and it is license free. Our X2 wireless products works here as well as units from Sabine and maybe others (part 15 devices). These will not be affected by the whitespace ruling. You would be prohibited from running a conventional wireless mic (part 74) in these frequencies.

 

You can also run wireless mics (part 15) in other ISM bands. Our new Relay and XD-V units work in the 2.4G band, unaffected by the FCC whitespace rulings. Other manufacturers including Audio Technica, Sabine, Stageclix and maybe more have wireless products that work in ISM bands (there's also 5GHz).

 

The other mention about the 2008 rules no longer applies and the writer's assumption that a whitespace device will not interfere with a mic doesn't define "very close". I imagine it only considers a single unit and not a room filled with hundreds of them. So maybe, your mic doesn't get interference except every time that single guy with the only TVBD in the house comes up on the dance floor and gets near your stage. How many dropouts can you tolerate in a show?

[dboomer]

I personally believe the government should mandate that the FCC will NOT be allowed to continue to license spectrum to the highest bidder to the exclusion of others. It belongs to everyone and should not be looked on as a source of revenue.

 

Surely you are not suggesting they do the same thing with the bands that keep airplanes from falling out of the sky . There has to be some kind of regulations.

 

So that is exactly what they just did. They all but un-regulated the band.

The gave you permission to use a wireless mic by removing the requirement for a license. They also basically gave permission for anybody else with a wireless device to operate there as well.

 

In this case there won't be any change to the government's revenue on the TV bands. The revenue (about $7B annually) will come to the private sector and bring a lot of new jobs. Not to get political, yes lots of them will go to overseas manufacturers, but most (at least in the beginning) will go to good old American R&D and to guys climbing up poles to install new new networks.

 

 

 

WRT to the 700MHz sell off. That wasn't any doings of the FCC. That was a LAW passed by Congress.

[agedhorse]

Yes ... but I sure the line to buy them is really short.

 

The horse industry dwarfs the wireless mic industry by hundreds of times. The horse industry's lobbys serve the industry including owners (indirectly) rather than the wireless mic industry's lobbiests who serve the MANUFACTURERS, IMO at the expense of the OWNERS of the products.

 

http://www.horsecouncil.org/nationaleconomics.php

[RoadRanger]

RoadRanger - As to the 169-172 mHz reference ... these are the old VHF TV channels.

No - those frequencies are in the band between channels 6 (82-88 Mhz) and 7 (174-180 Mhz).

So yes, if you can find a mic that's worth a crap down there it is legal to use.

Shure and Lectrosonics have models that can operate on those frequencies.

Also everythin I know of that works down here are single frequency units that cannot be tuned.

I think the Lectrosonics unit is tunable?

I imagine it only considers a single unit and not a room filled with hundreds of them. So maybe, your mic doesn't get interference except every time that single guy with the only TVBD in the house comes up on the dance floor and gets near your stage. How many dropouts can you tolerate in a show?

As TVBD devices are required to connect to a database before transmitting I can't see how they are going to be able to use whitespace for portable transmitting devices?

[agedhorse]

 

No - those frequencies are in the band between channels 6 (82-88 Mhz) and 7 (174-180 Mhz).Shure and Lectrosonics have models that can operate on those frequencies.I think the Lectrosonics unit is tunable?

 

 

There used to be some good options, such as the Shure SC, Audio Technica 1200 and others but all of the good stuff has been discontinued (don't know about Lectrosonics) because of the benefits of increased channel density in and smaller components the UHF realm.

 

I wish I kept some NOS AT 1200's, those were outstanding (though expensive) VHF options.

[dboomer]

 

 

 

Ok ... but I have never seen a horseshoe for sale in my life. That said ... how many cell phone stores do you see? Now imagine new capabilities for smart phones that 10X or 100X or 10,00X their current capabilities.

 

I imagine the ratio of horseshoe stores to mobile device stores will increase in favor of mobile devices.

 

This is not a referendum on horses, just an analogy comparing a traditional norm to a new paradigm shift.

[dboomer]

No - those frequencies are in the band between channels 6 (82-88 Mhz) and 7 (174-180 Mhz).

 

I'm missing your point here ???

 

Shure and Lectrosonics have models that can operate on those frequencies.I think the Lectrosonics unit is tunable?

 

Which is why i said "there aren't many". Lectrosonics is "tour grade" gear, nice stuff and very expensive and probably out of the reach of many on this forum. AT makes some too, but again most are old holdover stuff designed years ago.

 

As TVBD devices are required to connect to a database before transmitting I can't see how they are going to be able to use whitespace for portable transmitting devices?

 

The database will mostly only contain TV stations and maybe NFL games. It will not like normal wireless mic use in nightclubs, churches and probably even most Broadway shows. So you will have 2 guaranteed TV channels to operate wireless mics in per market ... you and everybody else. If there's a church or club next door you'll have to split them and this is also assuming that the wireless you own will actually tune in those channels. Also while you could look up the status of those channels "today", there is no guarantee that new stations won't come on the air or that current ones won't move or have their antennas moved or their power upped. This is not yet written in stone.

 

Here's how I see it ...

 

I was gonna say it's the beginning of the end for current conventional wireless mics the way we know them ... but the beginning was a while ago and we've moved down the path on the way to the end. The "end" will be at different times at different places. It will come sooner to major metro areas and later to Mark H, out in the sticks

 

Smart users need to go get themselves educated.

 

Smart users will begin to budget for the future (and don't forget to allow more $$ to your cell phone bill too)

 

New technologies will be developed that will provide even better, more reliable and with better sound quality then you are used to ... think HD vs analog TV for a preview. Maybe you haven't actually bought a new HD TV .. but if your business depended on it you most likely would have. Maybe there are some that prefer that old smeary picture ... but not me.

 

Others are free to hold different opinions.

 

Mine should be considered highly biased because I represent a company that already produces an alternative to conventional TV band wireless and the very likely fallout from all these new rule changes. It will not solve every problem for everybody, but it is a low cost remedy that we think could be used by a huge percentage of typical wireless mic users. Please also judge other opinions by their financial relationships to the question just to be fair. I think it would also be fair to ask them if their R&D departments aren't developing new technology to deal with problems they do not acknowledge.

 

Oh yeah ... we haven't even talked about the National Broadband Plan that will most likely take away half of this already troubled band. So be informed ... there are much bigger changes looming on the horizon.

[RoadRanger]

I wish I kept some NOS AT 1200's, those were outstanding (though expensive) VHF options.

One of the bands I worked with had an old AT single channel unit - it really was a nice unit! OTOH I should mention that I rarely work in cities so don't have the interference issues yous guys have - nor am I ever dependent on the wireless working. Perhaps a tunable VHF unit would be OK for mission critical apps - but it looks like they don't make them anymore .

[RoadRanger]

New technologies will be developed that will provide even better, more reliable and with better sound quality then you are used to ... think HD vs analog TV for a preview.

So far the digital stuff available kicks analog arse for sure as far as sound quality and ease of channel selection goes but seem severely limited in channel count? What happens with your all 16 channels used setup when another user sets one up next door? Are you down to 8 each assuming the new guy is willing to co-operate with you? I guess I'm saying that it isn't clear that digital will make things much better for those Broadway shows you mentioned?

[agedhorse]

 

Ok ... but I have never seen a horseshoe for sale in my life. That said ... how many cell phone stores do you see? Now imagine new capabilities for smart phones that 10X or 100X or 10,00X their current capabilities. I imagine the ratio of horseshoe stores to mobile device stores will increase in favor of mobile devices. This is not a referendum on horses, just an analogy comparing a traditional norm to a new paradigm shift.

 

 

I was comparing horse shoes to wireless mics, not cellphones.

 

All I f*cking want is a cell phone that makes and receives calls... so far in spite of 10 years worth of promises and bragging about coverage, they still haven't come even close to making good on this promise. I don't care one bit about all that other crapola. Even at NAMM, I have trouble... sometimes the network is overloaded, sometimes it's a poor connection, but it's certainly way less that 100%.

[FXR]

Small comfort. Too little too late. The FCC just redid TV and wireless stuff creating a situation where 100% of the people in both markets had to buy new equipment. It's a big {censored}ing lie for profit.

 

Welcome to American. Keep bending over.

[agedhorse]

Welcome to American. Keep bending over.

 

And there's that uncomfortable little feeling again

[dboomer]

 

I was comparing horse shoes to wireless mics, not cellphones.

 

 

Then you are missing my point.

 

My point is that wireless mics (horseshoes) will be pushed out by mobile devices (autos)

[agedhorse]

 

Then you are missing my point. My point is that wireless mics (horseshoes) will be pushed out by mobile devices (autos)

 

 

Gottcha, except horses and horse shoes were pushed out by competition from autos, trucks and tractors and wireless mics are being pushed out by the government and that has nothing to do with competition from other devices that may replace them, it's regulation.

 

My gripe is that I invested in something and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the product I invested in. The ONLY reason it's now or is going to be valueless is because of a regulation that smacks of unfair mandated competion where the winner and loser are already predetermined. The winners are the wirlesss mobile device manufacturers and the wireless mic manufacturers. The losers in all this are the (current) wireless mic owners. It's pretty simple actually. Why not make the winners subsidize the losers so that it's a little more even. Still makes my butt twitch.

[dboomer]

 

Gottcha, except horses and horse shoes were pushed out by competition from autos, trucks and tractors and wireless mics are being pushed out by the government and that has nothing to do with competition from other devices that may replace them, it's regulation.

 

 

Mics have not been regulated out by the government. In fact they have recently been made legal so you all are no longer outlaws! They will continue be legal to use but they will work like a horse on the freeway. What is pushing is market and consumer pressure. If nobody buys any TVBDs then there will be no problems to conventional wireless mics. If hundreds of millions of consumers buy them then you are pushed out

 

 

The winners are the wirlesss mobile device manufacturers and the wireless mic manufacturers. The losers in all this are the (current) wireless mic owners. It's pretty simple actually. Why not make the winners subsidize the losers so that it's a little more even. Still makes my butt twitch.

 

 

So only those manufacturers that can help solve the problem will be winners ... unless you keep buying the story about rebates:lol:. So in the UK where something similar is going to happen, wireless mic users will be compensated for having to move over. I'm sure that PAMA (professional audio manufacturer's alliance ... to whom almost everyone that built a wireless mic you are currently using is a member) could have talked Verizon into doing the same over the 700MHz switch. What's a few tens of millions when you are paying $14B for the license. You have to ask them why they didn't make it happen.