I need a PA for a 2 piece extra spicy rock 'n' roll band

[TIMKEYS]

I

[jwlussow]

 

Bass instrument amplificationIn rare cases, sound reinforcement subwoofer enclosures are also used for bass instrument amplification by electric bass players and synth bass players.

 

 

I

[TIMKEYS]

I

[335BoB]

:wave:Oh. I think I'll relax and just read today.

[TIMKEYS]

:wave:Oh. I think I'll relax and just read today.

 

Check your pm's too ......rest up for the NYE gigs lol. We played last night and again tonight ,,,, hopfully us old geezers can stay awake till midnight on the NYE gig.

[agedhorse]

 

Why are there so many keyboard players raving about K10's (and other speakers like that such as SxA360's) on the keyboard forums? Just asking.

 

 

For monitoring where there's no need (or desire) for high level low end. Also, on some stages the sub wash from the PA will be PLENTY of extra bottom and at times could even be too much.

[agedhorse]

Tim... I call bull{censored} on your posts.

 

Subs (or any cabinet that's used to extend the low end of a system) became popular because we couldn't get enough real low end out of the cabinets that were available at the volumes necessary for the larger and larger venues being played. This, plus the addition of 5 and 6 string elect. basses, synths, and organs (being used as lead instruments) placed a larger and larger demand on gear that was not suitable, or was too big to move on a daily basis. This occured simultaneous to the increase in available amplifier power and a decrease in the cost of the power, and the development of higher powered speakers. All of this developed hand in hand with the demands for low frequency reproduction.

 

Since the OP was looking for a small PA that could reproduce drums and keys, one of the obvious options was a smaller top cabinet that is easy to place on a stand and leave the low frequency reproduction to a larger cabinet (could be called a sub or a LF cabinet) that could live on the ground. The reason for the larger "sub" is because the smaller cabinet is not as efficient at reproducing the low end and to make it larger defeats the purpose of a compact top cabinet. IF the OP could live with a large top cabinet then he may be able to get away without a "sub" but the industry is quickly getting away from the old school big heavy cabinets and for good reason.

[TIMKEYS]

 

Tim... I call bull{censored} on your posts. Subs (or any cabinet that's used to extend the low end of a system) became popular because we couldn't get enough real low end out of the cabinets that were available at the volumes necessary for the larger and larger venues being played. This, plus the addition of 5 and 6 string elect. basses, synths, and organs (being used as lead instruments) placed a larger and larger demand on gear that was not suitable, or was too big to move on a daily basis. This occured simultaneous to the increase in available amplifier power and a decrease in the cost of the power, and the development of higher powered speakers. All of this developed hand in hand with the demands for low frequency reproduction. Since the OP was looking for a small PA that could reproduce drums and keys, one of the obvious options was a smaller top cabinet that is easy to place on a stand and leave the low frequency reproduction to a larger cabinet (could be called a sub or a LF cabinet) that could live on the ground. The reason for the larger "sub" is because the smaller cabinet is not as efficient at reproducing the low end and to make it larger defeats the purpose of a compact top cabinet. IF the OP could live with a large top cabinet then he may be able to get away without a "sub" but the industry is quickly getting away from the old school big heavy cabinets and for good reason.

 

 

 

From a pure technical point of view ,,, subs cover a freq range that you wont get with the typical PA speaker. From a practical point of view,, draggin in subs on the typical duo gig is overkill. It defeats the reason why places go with solo and duo acts. They want a small cut down format that fits into not only a budget but stage footprint. Its real easy to lose track of the basic objective when you get gear heads who do sound for a living involved in how small bars operate.

 

duos and solo acts are basically music on the cheap for most bars in this country.... they want them in ,play three hours and out with not much in the way of set up or load out. They dont require the lowest of the lows when it comes to sound. A keyboard and a guitar playing typically duo material doesnt require subs. The pa deal is a bit like fishing... they dont want a guy to show up with a 49k bass boat ,,multiple fishing rods and tackle boxes all zooted up with a matching extended cab 4x4 with the team logos on the side,,, they want a guy with a cane pol that can catch fish. we can agree to disagree on this and that is cool. To be honest,, I think our OP prolly has a good handle on about what he needs to do the duo thing already..... dont confuse the guy by going all technocrat on him lol.

[Visconti]

I

[335BoB]

"Disclaimer: My threads and posts are created to allow forum members to discuss interesting subject matter"

 

NOW I get it!!!!

[jwlussow]

 

From a practical point of view,, draggin in subs on the typical duo gig is overkill. It defeats the reason why places go with solo and duo acts. They want a small cut down format that fits into not only a budget but stage footprint. Its real easy to lose track of the basic objective when you get gear heads who do sound for a living involved in how small bars operate. duos and solo acts are basically music on the cheap for most bars in this country.... they want them in ,play three hours and out with not much in the way of set up or load out.

 

 

The disconnect is your idea of a

[modulusman]

The disconnect is your idea of a

[335BoB]

The disconnect is your idea of a

[jwlussow]

 

I think you may be the one that is disconnected ,,, the first use of subs in the studio was in 1973. So the original artists you are talking about made music just fine without subwoofers.

 

 

C

[335BoB]

C

[jwlussow]

 

Do I need a computer?? I don't know but I DO know I spend WAY too much time on it!!! btw, my pic was actually a Duo in a restaurant. He was cropped out!!!

 

 

I guess we all spend too much time on the computer. Here are a couple older shots of my duo.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]329709[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]329710[/ATTACH]

[wades_keys]

I've seen PLENTY of duos packed into small spaces here in the Ville that don't run subs at all.

 

In fact, I'd say that running subs is the exception, not the rule.

 

YMMV and all that jazz.

[agedhorse]

 

From a pure technical point of view ,,, subs cover a freq range that you wont get with the typical PA speaker. From a practical point of view,, draggin in subs on the typical duo gig is overkill. It defeats the reason why places go with solo and duo acts. They want a small cut down format that fits into not only a budget but stage footprint. Its real easy to lose track of the basic objective when you get gear heads who do sound for a living involved in how small bars operate. duos and solo acts are basically music on the cheap for most bars in this country.... they want them in ,play three hours and out with not much in the way of set up or load out. They dont require the lowest of the lows when it comes to sound. A keyboard and a guitar playing typically duo material doesnt require subs.

 

 

That's not true at all Tim.

 

C'mon, we provide systems fairly regularly that include an 8" or more commonly a 10" top cabinet (very good quality) that's good to 90-100Hz on the bottom end by dseign. We then match with a 15" sub that's ground boundery coupled that covers down to about 45Hz which the top just can't do with any efficiency. There's a pole that goes between the two that get's the top into the best position for good coverage, sightlines and keeps the system within an inconspicous footprint. In order to do this with a single cabinet, we would need to use either a larger (not compact) 12" cabinet or even a 15" cabinet which may work just fine but is more speaker up in the air and visible.

 

I'm doing another show with Tommy Emmanual soon, and even though he's a solo act he's playing in a large (~1000 seat) venue and subs are essential with the line array I will use. The top cabinets are good acousticly down to only 80Hz flat and I high pass then at 100Hz to give me uniformity throughout the crossover region.

 

When I do solo shows with Taj Mahal or Arlo Guthrie, I also need subs. Taj tunes his guitar down on some songs to do a psuedo bass line and without subs the efect is not as he intends. I also need the full volume of my tops to cover his vocal, and then when he plays keys I need the bottom too. He gets very loud, that's part of his style. With Arlo, when he rocks out on the Kertzweil, I really need the bottom end. My tops alone don't cut it.

 

These are just a few of the solo shows I do where subs are mandatory. Part of the rider reqts. as well.

[wades_keys]

 

That's pretty much what I see here on Long Island. I have never seen a sub with a duo act and occasionally see an L1 but would do just as well with a pair on sticks without a sub.

 

Pretty much the same here. Stages are too small - hell, they're not even stages most times: you'll get the corner next to the dart board.

 

There's 2 places in St. Matthews that are so damn small, that even "full" bands can't get subs in there. I'm talking one rack with power amps and the mixer on top, sitting off to the side in front of the stage, and a cut down drum kit kind of small. They get some "big names" for these parts up in there too - Tim Krekel used to play that joint all the time before he passed (he played guitar for Jimmy Buffet back in the day - you can hear his work on "Son of a son of a sailor")

 

Take it easy.

[jwlussow]

 

AFAIK Tim plays in a band where most the members don't get paid. Don't need to worry about sounding good when you can play that cheap.

 

 

That does make a difference. We get between $500 and $1500 a night. Like I said, sometimes my duo makes more then the full band but the places we play are not dive bars.

[jwlussow]

 

A keyboard and a guitar playing typically duo material doesnt require subs.

 

 

How about this, try adding the phrase

[TIMKEYS]

 

AFAIK Tim plays in a band where most the members don't get paid. Don't need to worry about sounding good when you can play that cheap.

 

 

 

Actually its more a band made up of retired guys. some of which were signed to major labels back in the day. The front guy has stuff playing on the radio and has cracked the top 20 on the roots country chart. We are all financially in a position where we dont need to worry about gig splits as much as you do. Its a good band and the new venue is on its way to being a great success. Everyone has different goals when it comes to music. You should start out 2011 by setting a personal goal for yourself of not being such a nasty person. you might then find the financial gods smiling upon you rather then kickin you in the ass.

[jwlussow]

Uh oh, the music stand was supposed to be cropped out of the pic!!!

 

 

 

I didn

[335BoB]

 

That's not true at all Tim. C'mon, we provide systems fairly regularly that include an 8" or more commonly a 10" top cabinet (very good quality) that's good to 90-100Hz on the bottom end by dseign. We then match with a 15" sub that's ground boundery coupled that covers down to about 45Hz which the top just can't do with any efficiency. There's a pole that goes between the two that get's the top into the best position for good coverage, sightlines and keeps the system within an inconspicous footprint. In order to do this with a single cabinet, we would need to use either a larger (not compact) 12" cabinet or even a 15" cabinet which may work just fine but is more speaker up in the air and visible. I'm doing another show with Tommy Emmanual soon, and even though he's a solo act he's playing in a large (~1000 seat) venue and subs are essential with the line array I will use. The top cabinets are good acousticly down to only 80Hz flat and I high pass then at 100Hz to give me uniformity throughout the crossover region. When I do solo shows with Taj Mahal or Arlo Guthrie, I also need subs. Taj tunes his guitar down on some songs to do a psuedo bass line and without subs the efect is not as he intends. I also need the full volume of my tops to cover his vocal, and then when he plays keys I need the bottom too. He gets very loud, that's part of his style. With Arlo, when he rocks out on the Kertzweil, I really need the bottom end. My tops alone don't cut it. These are just a few of the solo shows I do where subs are mandatory. Part of the rider reqts. as well.

 

 

And THAT'S why we are worlds apart in this discussion.

[jwlussow]

 

And THAT'S why we are worlds apart in this discussion.

 

 

I understand your point but that is why those little words