Stereo sound in LIVE situations

[Coaster]

 

This is the story of my life. Teaching engineers not only how to use our house desks, but sometimes their own desk, and even just ANY desk in general. "Can I get a compressor on this VCA?" I can't tell you how many times I hear this, and equally ridiculous questions, and have to restrain myself from just straight out telling the "engineer" to {censored} off to the bar until the end of the gig and it will all be handled. Seems to often be the case that American engineers are purely there because they were mates with the band at the start and actually have no clue whatsoever. This doesn't seem to happen so much in the UK, as people tend to get called out on their inadequacy and replaced. Generally anyway.

 

 

ever see the twilight zone story where at a certain age you were given a test - and if you managed to pass the test they (the new world government) executed you? this is america now. we cannot speak out against incompetence lest we be labled "terrorist" or "unamerican".

 

no, it is accepted that the nude folks talking about how wonderful their clothes are be kept clueless, corrupt, and all powerful. yay new herd!

[DBR]

I keep everything panned to the middle. No matter what venue I may be at. Panned material just sounds real funny live. Unbalanced. I went to a Beatles tribute band gig and the mic was panned like you'd hear it in their early Stereo days. Was quite an odd experience being forced to listen to one side of the mains. No vocals or no instruments. When I walked up to the board mix, it was still funny sounding. The mix was unusually unblanced and didn't cover the grounds very well at all. An unnecessary step when it comes to live sound IMHO. The effects would be cool in Stereo. But that's about it.

 

On the other hand, I caught Yes in their surround sound tour. That was truly amazing. Of course, they only played 8 tunes in 2 hours but it was still an amazing expeirinece to hear surround sound in a live situation. There were 5 surround speakers strown about the back of the venue where the concrete met the grass. Ahh to have been in the perfect center for that one. I got stuck just below one of the surround speakers. Oh well. Still it was a amazing event. The venue was quite setup for it. I understand Pink Floyd was one of the first bands to actually come up with a Quad live sound environment. Balanced or unbalanced nonetheless. Still a pretty cool concept.

[Special J]

All of my systems are wired for stereo. The riders I fulfill require it, and I find it useful for certain outside-of-the-box situations.

[GigMan]

Stereo guitar does have some good applications, again things like stereo chorus (anybody but us old farts remember the JC-120?) and stereo time modulated effects, BUT, stereo should not and does not ahve to get in the way of proper coverage of the audience area and the effects algorithems should be writter (and used) in a way that does not get in the way of good solid coverage. IF you have the equipment AND the musical chops, stereo guitar can be a worthy addition and really impact the dimensionality of both keys and guitars BUT coverage ALWAYS comes first. Stereo is but a possible icing on the cake.

 

How about for keyboards (which is the only reason I care about running PA in stereo):

If I am running the mains in stereo & I have my kybd. rig set up right nxt. to the FOH mixer, should I run my keys into a stereo channel (channel that has L/R 1/4" inputs) or should I run Left out of my kybd. to one mixer channel and pan that mixer channel it hard Left (are not-so-hard Left?) and run Right channel out of kybd. and pan mixer channel hard Right (are not-so-hard Right?)

[soulvillemusic]

I have started running my guitar player in stereo for the last fix or six gigs. I'm just double mic'ing his 2x12 cabinet with two different mics to give some sonic difference on each channel and am using different distances from the speakers to achieve a slight channel delay....then I hard pan the two channels.

 

I do feel it helps a bit by creating a slightly thicker guitar sound. I also feel it makes the vocals sit in the mix a little bit better but that could easily be the placebo effect. Unlike hard panning different drums the coverage is still even so I don't feel like I'm screwing any listeners sitting out to the sides of the speakers. A single guitar player is the only thing I would consider hard panning in a live situation.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Have we yet definded what "running in stereo" is?

 

To me, running in stereo is:

 

A stereo source fully hard panned through a stereo system.

[agedhorse]

How about for keyboards (which is the only reason I care about running PA in stereo): If I am running the mains in stereo & I have my kybd. rig set up right nxt. to the FOH mixer, should I run my keys into a stereo channel (channel that has L/R 1/4" inputs) or should I run Left out of my kybd. to one mixer channel and pan that mixer channel it hard Left (are not-so-hard Left?) and run Right channel out of kybd. and pan mixer channel hard Right (are not-so-hard Right?)

Depends entirely on the key's algorithems. There are some particular patches I have heard that sound terrible in stereo (way too much going on) and much better in mono, and some that sound great in stereo butt hese usually sound good in mono too. Sometimes, on really wide patches, a mild amount of panning works much better.

[bigjd]

Not a pro here, but I run my guitar stereo. I don't use an amp it's all modeler so it's easy to do.

When pluging into some of the bigger PA's around town they seem to really like having it that way.

My own FOH is in stereo when I use my system. I like the ambience I can get with time delay effects.

[ibanez_dude]

 

Depends entirely on the key's algorithems. There are some particular patches I have heard that sound terrible in stereo (way too much going on) and much better in mono, and some that sound great in stereo butt hese usually sound good in mono too. Sometimes, on really wide patches, a mild amount of panning works much better.

 

Yeh, it's all about experimenting. It really can (and often does) sound much better in stereo, but depends on the patch.

[6Imzadi]

I like to have my lead vocalist centered. The bass is centered. Kick is centered. Then, I have top and bottom snare slightly to each side. Toms slightly outboard of that. Guitar has 2 mics just outside of those toms. Keys on the far outside. To my ears, this creates a sonic pyramid coming out of the speakers at you with the vocalist on the top. In any given location in the room you will hear even coverage and still be able to hear the effect.

 

I think if I were to set it up in mono, I would have the same type of pyramid effect, only I think it would be very narrow at the bottom. I have not yet found where stereo didn't sound good in even the smallest venues.

 

I know that I am in the minority by using stereo exclusively. But, it works for me.

[Phil Clark]

+1 for the Rig is stereo but I mix in mono (nearly everything panned dead center). The only stereo panning we do is break music, Effects, Keys (Jerry occasionally uses a Hammond B3 patch that really needs stereo to sound it's best), and on occasion a slight stereo pan of the rack toms on the drums. But I never pan further than 9 o'clock and 3 o'clock. Usually I try to stay between 10 and 2. And subs are always in Mono.

 

I have had a few "oops" moments where I walk the crowd and realize "Oh crap, [random input] is panned stereo". So I try to use sub groups and make sure that they are panned Center, and I assign only items I want in stereo to the stereo buss only.

[fishmanrod]

Not a pro here. However....when I first started doing sound in really small bars, I would run the rig in stereo and pan some things slightly. Ie, toms, so when the drummer went through his toms it sounded like the PA was following him in space. In a small bar with 20' between the foh stacks it worked.

Once I started doing slightly bigger gigs I ran hard into the fact that panning some things left half the audience not hearing those things. Now I run in mono in most situations.

I think the compromise is NOT to hard pan. For a stereo guitar or key amp/rig/modeler, run two mics, and pan the mics SLIGHTLY. This gives you a some stereo effect, for those that can hear it, but still allows the crowd to hear all the info. Agedhorse is 100% correct on this, in my humble opinion. Coverage is #1. After that, if you can get some stereo effects going that 30% of the audience might notice, good for you.

As to putting up stereo mics or DI's so the talent is happy, absolutely. My job is to make them sound good. Their job is to play well. They play better if they think I am listening, and helping them with their request. However, they seem to think their job is also to tell me how to do my job, even though they are BEHIND the FOH. Ya, right.

After years of mixing on stage myself I know they have a very limited idea what it sounds like in the audience, and after a few years doing sound I also know in nearly every case there is no point arguing with the talent. Set up the mics for stereo, tell them you will do your best (which is not the same as doing what they want) and do what you think gives the situation the best sound.

Cheers!

[Scodiddly]

Just do the math on it - how many people in the audience will be covered equally (say within 6dB) by both sides of a stereo system? Usually the number ends up being 10% or less.

 

Then if you look at the effects of having two speaker systems covering the same audience. Since only a small number of people will be an equal distance from both systems, all the rest will hear them with differing arrival times. In a living room you're looking at a few milliseconds at worst. In a live venue the different arrival times will put the delay into "audible echo" territory.

[Phil Clark]

Not sure how you arrive at "10% or less" in your equation. Don't get me wrong, I agree that hard panned stereo is not a good idea when mixing live, just questioning your reasoning. There are too many variables to say that 10% is an accurate figure. What is the dispersion angle of the speakers, are you using 45

[Scodiddly]

Not sure how you arrive at "10% or less" in your equation. Don't get me wrong, I agree that hard panned stereo is not a good idea when mixing live, just questioning your reasoning. There are too many variables to say that 10% is an accurate figure. What is the dispersion angle of the speakers, are you using 45

[RoadRanger]

Another use for stereo is if you have a singer that wanders in front of the mains - you can pan them away from the main they are getting too close to . Also when playing at volumes low enough that you are just reinforcing the sound a guitar amp may be plenty loud enough to cover the side of the stage it's on but you want to put some in the opposite side main to balance things out - or at least put more into that side than the "near" side. As I do mostly private events I run into these situations often. Most of yous guys have the "luxury" of swamping out the stage sound with massive SPL's .

[Ryan.]

stereo is different from force panning stuff hard left hard right, correct?

 

i mean if you're looking for stereo its because you want your sound to move from lets say 100% left to 100% right 1% at a time... Not just i play out one side or the other...

[Scodiddly]

Ah, I found the article I was looking for about the problem with live stereo:

http://bobmccarthy.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/the-emperors-new-stereo/

[Bugzie]

There are 2 reasons that I run a "stereo" rig. The first is that I get paid extra to play music between sets, and secondly for the effects that are used on instruments. Other than todays keyboards how many instruments are actually "stereo?' Panning the drum mic's can add some interesting effects, but other than that the benefits just aren't there.The old "Ping Pong" effect when done at a pretty good volume level can be intersting. How does a guitar get stereo from a mono source other than from effects?