Stereo sound in LIVE situations

[RoboPimp]

How do the "pros" do it?

 

There seems to be a lot of guitarists I talk to who are convinced that the "pros" all run stereo sound and that you need to mic up both their amps in stereo and it will make the whole experience so much more amazing.

 

I haven't worked in any real "pro" situations but I really can't recall many "Stereo" PA systems except maybe roger waters when he had his quadraphonic system

 

anywho, any thoughts or input would be greatly appreciated

[soul-x]

A "pro" rig may or may not be stereo (or have even more zones than that), but micing in the way you suggest just means that people on one side of the house would hear one guitar amp, and the other side of the house would hear the other. Very few would be in "the sweet spot" for stereo.

[lsits]

Not a real "Pro", but I run my rig in mono. Once had a keyboard insist on having is keyboard rig run in stereo. No problem, I took two DI's out into two separate channels and ran in mono. He later told me that it was the best his keyboard has ever sounded. I'm guessing because the entire audience could hear the keyboard.

[Axisplayer]

Are they running stereo amps? Stereo effects? A mono source into a stereo PA doesn't sound different unless the PA channels are processed to make the channels sound different (as in delay or chorus.) Soul-X is correct that it wouldn't make much sense generally. Frankly, I think you need to hang out with a better crowd.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

and that you need to mic up both their amps in stereo and it will make the whole experience so much more amazing.

 

I started running in mono cause I had to because that's all my earliest rigs were capable of. Then I graduated to stereo all the time. I went back to running generally in mono cause I finally figured out running in stereo at the least didn't make a lick of difference over-all, or actually was oftentimes less effective.

 

Generally players ability has much more to do with the amazingness of their product rather than stereo or not.

 

There are times when stereo works... but generally that's more involved with panning two different guitarists. Example: The Stones, Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out album: Mick Taylor and Keith Richards guitar work. I suspect, however, that the recordings of the live performances on that album were not entirely representative of the over-all FOH sound at the actual performances (based on the FOH sound I heard at various locations at various Rolling Stones shows I've attended).

[trevcda]

I don't consider myself a "pro". But every one of my systems in stereo. I'd have to reconfigure to run exclusively mono. Most of the time, most inputs are ran dead center, unless I need to balance out a way too loud guitar amp on stage or put a little separation on two guitars playing simular parts. But because I'm running in stereo, I have that option if I need it. Effects are returned in stereo. Very rarely have I been asked for stereo guitar mics. What I have done is mic'd two or more amps for different sounds at different times. I've also mic's a Leslie, top and bottom, in stereo. That can be dizzying. I prefer to mix in stereo even giving those in "the sweet spot" a little something more, but not at the expense of everyone else. A local concert house has a fairly nice powered QSC line array system that is run in stereo and has seating 180 degrees around the stage and on a second level. The problem is many B.E.s go for the hard pan and, as mentioned above, end up providing their artist a very poor mix in two thirds of the room. Franlky I think the room needs side crowd and center fills, but that a different discussion.

[dennis a]

In reference to pros running in stereo, I have never seen a national act's tech rider that didn't request stereo so I guess I would agree with "2) Comply with marching orders they receive from somebody else." I set up the system as requested and the BE makes use of it how ever he or she sees fit.

[W. M. Hellinger]

You know: There was a time when performers performed first... typically for years... and then maybe were offered an opportunity to log some studio time.

 

Now I think it's common that performers graduate from the studio to the live stage after years of "studio" time.

 

If so... I suspect this explains the relatively recent emergence of "amazing stereo musician sound"... as most (virtually all) of the "gotta have stereo" musicians I've worked with over the recent past had a fair amount of studio time (or exclusively studio time) under their belt either before or during their live performance time. And it (stereo operation) rarely comes up with the primarily live performance musicians.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

In reference to pros running in stereo, I have never seen a national act's tech rider that didn't request stereo

 

Tis true... more recently anyway.

 

Also: I've noticed that more recently (maybe it's been this way a long time), the BEs traveling on tour are commonly fairly green at doing live work... many (most) recently graduated from doing primarily (or exclusively) studio work.

 

Also: I've noticed that oftentimes concerning the rider for the act... well... it's doubtful that anyone out on the tour actually wrote or had much of any input on the drafting of the rider. Many (most) riders I've seen recently were basically boiler plate modified slightly to the act.

[TomTFS]

No "pro" engineers run a rig in mono. They may not pan anything but that's different. Most big rigs will have all manner of different feeds; main PA, flown PA, infills, delays, and other zones. Maybe a mono block of subs in the centre, maybe all the subs on a separate feed which could itself be mono or stereo.

Starting off with your whole system off one feed is limiting yourself massively, not just for the purposes of the actual mix, but for any corrections you need to make for the venue you are in.

 

Very rarely do you get a guitarist with an actual stereo rig, quite often we might mic one guitar amp with two mics though. Say a dynamic and condensor, sometimes these will be panned differently, sometimes the same, sometimes dead centre, it all depends on the band and the situation.

For a band with two guitars, I personally like to have a dynamic and condensor on each, then heavily compress the dynamic mics and pan them slightly the opposite way to the guitar positions on stage, then have the condensors hard panned the correct way. Gives a nice thick sound and a good stereo field which works right across the venue.

[trevcda]

 

Now I think it's common that performers graduate from the studio to the live stage after years of "studio" time.

 

 

I think you may be on to something there. With the proliferation of home studios, the desire to "make it sound like the record" out-weighs the desire to capture the magic of the live performance. Add to that the fact that you don't even need to have a band to get started any more. It can be you, a computer and a nominal usb interface.

[agedhorse]

Generally my systems are configured stereo, most inputs are run panned to both sides (effectively mono), but I return effects to stereo, stereo keys to somewhat panned stereo, most playback to stereo (though often I will cheat by keeping seperation to less than 12dB in the event that there is something goofy in the source) and I am WAY more concerned with good, even coverage of the mix across the audience area than I am "stereo" effect.

 

With the guest engineers that come through, when I am dealing with real pros, almost always I see the same approach as I use, even coverage of the mix takes priority. One tip-off that I am dealing with a non-pro hack is the radical panning of things like vocals. I then suggest that he walk the audience to see if his "stereo" approach is ruining the mix for a portion of the audience. If I get the deer in the headlights look, I know the guy is a newbie wanker.

 

Then add front fills, outfills, etc and the goal is seamlessly integrating these zones in order to get the best coverage and most uniform mix for everybody.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

No "pro" engineers run a rig in mono. They may not pan anything but that's different. Most big rigs will have all manner of different feeds; main PA, flown PA, infills, delays, and other zones. Maybe a mono block of subs in the centre, maybe all the subs on a separate feed which could itself be mono or stereo. Starting off with your whole system off one feed is limiting yourself massively, not just for the purposes of the actual mix, but for any corrections you need to make for the venue you are in. Very rarely do you get a guitarist with an actual stereo rig, quite often we might mic one guitar amp with two mics though. Say a dynamic and condensor, sometimes these will be panned differently, sometimes the same, sometimes dead centre, it all depends on the band and the situation. For a band with two guitars, I personally like to have a dynamic and condensor on each, then heavily compress the dynamic mics and pan them slightly the opposite way to the guitar positions on stage, then have the condensors hard panned the correct way. Gives a nice thick sound and a good stereo field which works right across the venue.

 

Yup.

 

Good explanation... possibly way beyond the scope of the intent of the OP's question... or completely not what a

[Coaster]

 

I know the guy is a newbie wanker.

 

 

how do you know he is british?

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

How do the "pros" do it? There seems to be a lot of guitarists I talk to who are convinced that the "pros" all run stereo sound and that you need to mic up both their amps in stereo and it will make the whole experience so much more amazing.

 

 

So... what sort of stereo sound are all these guitarists expecting that will produce much more amazing results? Maybe headphones all-around for the listening audience?

 

I will admit... the times that I've had a guitarist insist on stereo... when I stuck two mics on their combo amp, he/she generally played better.

[dennis a]

 

Also: I've noticed that oftentimes concerning the rider for the act... well... it's doubtful that anyone out on the tour actually wrote or had much of any input on the drafting of the rider. Many (most) riders I've seen recently were basically boiler plate modified slightly to the act.

 

 

A lot of the riders I see appear to be composed by a BE that hasn't been with the band for 3 years (you know, back when the band was 5 piece). The only thing the old BE and the current BE agree on is "the system must be stereo".

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

The "studio" BE has come to depend on the ststem engineer and toes are stepped on less often. A lot of the riders I see appear to be composed by a BE that hasn't been with the band for 3 years (you know, back when the band was 5 piece). The only thing the old BE and the current BE agree on is "the system must be stereo".

 

 

You know: When I first got into this business (a few decades ago), it seemed like the regional system contractors were generally young-bucks and the BEs were generally well seasoned old-hands... had been touring for decades with all sorts of different bands. Years ago I looked forward to the BEs worldliness on sharing tricks of the trade. Now it seems like that has somewhat flip-flopped... and I'm oftentimes educating the BE's on how to operate or even engage the equipment at their disposal what was listed (manditory) on the rider (and roll my eyes alot fielding artistic musings).

[dennis a]

 

how to operate or even engage the equipment at their disposal what was listed (manditory) on the rider.

 

 

It was the BE from 3 years ago that requested that piece of equipment.

[W. M. Hellinger]

It was the BE from 3 years ago that requested that piece of equipment.

Or the studio engineer (or one of the studio engineers) who never tours with the band (from 3 years ago).

[TomTFS]

 

I'm oftentimes educating the BE's on how to operate or even engage the equipment at their disposal what was listed (manditory) on the rider.

 

 

This is the story of my life. Teaching engineers not only how to use our house desks, but sometimes their own desk, and even just ANY desk in general.

 

"Can I get a compressor on this VCA?"

I can't tell you how many times I hear this, and equally ridiculous questions, and have to restrain myself from just straight out telling the "engineer" to {censored} off to the bar until the end of the gig and it will all be handled.

 

Seems to often be the case that American engineers are purely there because they were mates with the band at the start and actually have no clue whatsoever. This doesn't seem to happen so much in the UK, as people tend to get called out on their inadequacy and replaced.

Generally anyway.

[Ryan.]

[Shaster]

How do the "pros" do it? There seems to be a lot of guitarists I talk to who are convinced that the "pros" all run stereo sound and that you need to mic up both their amps in stereo and it will make the whole experience so much more amazing. I haven't worked in any real "pro" situations but I really can't recall many "Stereo" PA systems except maybe roger waters when he had his quadraphonic system anywho, any thoughts or input would be greatly appreciated

 

I've seen and met many 'B" level guitarists (defined by me as bands that play both clubs and 10 to 15K arenas) in my day. Most of them now considered the old guard. Can't recall any stereo rigs.

 

I did run a stereo guitar rig in a Top 40/Original Rock band on "medium small" ($40K to $50K ) systems. It was purely for my own gratification and never really made a difference, unless I was the only guy playing. One exception - once in a while I would autopan the guitar (as in Hendrix...). The signal would careen from side to side like the old stereo records - psychedlic man! But this effect was only good for thirty seconds or so, and usually only once a week; maybe on a Friday or Saturday night.

[ibanez_dude]

I've never really seen guitarists run stereo rigs, although I know it happens sometimes. However, I have a worked a lot of large shows, and I've never seen someone run a big rig in mono for any kind of legitimate gig. I don't really see the point. Even if you're not planning on using stereo, you give yourself the option of panning and stereo micing techniques should you desire them, all by using one more return on your snake. How hard is that, really...

[agedhorse]

Stereo guitar does have some good applications, again things like stereo chorus (anybody but us old farts remember the JC-120?) and stereo time modulated effects, BUT, stereo should not and does not ahve to get in the way of proper coverage of the audience area and the effects algorithems should be writter (and used) in a way that does not get in the way of good solid coverage.

 

IF you have the equipment AND the musical chops, stereo guitar can be a worthy addition and really impact the dimensionality of both keys and guitars BUT coverage ALWAYS comes first. Stereo is but a possible icing on the cake.

[heath_eld]

 

You know: There was a time when performers performed first... typically for years... and then maybe were offered an opportunity to log some studio time. Now I think it's common that performers graduate from the studio to the live stage after years of "studio" time. If so... I suspect this explains the relatively recent emergence of "amazing stereo musician sound"... as most (virtually all) of the "gotta have stereo" musicians I've worked with over the recent past had a fair amount of studio time (or exclusively studio time) under their belt either before or during their live performance time. And it (stereo operation) rarely comes up with the primarily live performance musicians.

 

 

I'm not a real pro, but i often work with some guys who are quality (pro level) musicians, and studio engineers, and this sums up what they do exactly. Because they have a good ear and understanding of music, they are hard to argue with. They hard pan the drums, which are in stage centre, so one tom comes out one speaker and the other one out the other side. You end up with people on one side of the room not hearing one tom at all, on the opposite side, they hear the other.

 

Personally i generally wire in stereo (mainly for CDs) but use it in effective mono - maybe slight panning in a theatre type venue.