Members Marko Posted January 19, 2012 Members Share Posted January 19, 2012 Please consider the following scenario: Covers band, classic rock, country, oldies, blues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mutha Goose Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Regardless of any number on a meter, if the patrons and club management are claiming its too loud... its too loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sharnrock Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2864639-The-Speaker-system-for-bandThis thread kinda goes into that discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sharnrock Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Most people believe when their ears hurt it's too loud. If you have too much in the 4khz it's going to hurt peoples ears even at quiet volumes. Yet when you're at a concert with a 100kw system and it's 120db no one is running from the speakers. Then there's also the point where you have to start shouting over the music and this can be a problem too. If 70db is regular conversation, shouting is around 90db, and 120db is around a rock concert you can kinda guestimate where you want to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Eliminate all amps on stage and get a electronic drum kit, go in ears as well! Quiet stage is the best solution I have ever come across to controlled foh volumes. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marko Posted January 20, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Eliminate all amps on stage and get a electronic drum kit, go in ears as well! Quiet stage is the best solution I have ever come across to controlled foh volumes.Rod A wonderful idea, but not gonna happen any time soon. Actually, I proved that we could get a good, clean, loud, yet unpainful sound, I just don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Start with the drummer. If the drummer cant play at varying levels and bashing with heavy sticks is the norm, you're kind of screwed in most any smaller venue. Then guitar. Tilt back amp stands are your friends. First off they make the amp point at the guitar players ears instead of his knees which usually makes them turn down some. Second, all the ear piercing, ice pick in the forehead 4k - 6k treble that was blowing past their ears and straight into the crowds now hits their ears and they adjust their tone to where it should be. Third, since the guitar player still probably wants it louder than the people in the close tables do, it at least has to bounce off the ceiling first before smacking them in the face. If the drummer can't or won't learn how to play at different levels and the guitar players can't or won't get their tone with their amp pointing at their head, you might as well give up and start a new band. Finally, the kick drum is not the lead instrument, you want a strong driving bottom end but for a mixed crowd many small club bands are way to hung up on a chest thumping kick drum sound. Good luck. PS, I like to keep SPL around 95-98 dB in small venues with a mixed crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marko Posted January 20, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 ... PS, I like to keep SPL around 95-98 dB in small venues with a mixed crowd. Drummer is great. Guitarist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Drummer is great. Guitarist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marko Posted January 20, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Shaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Regardless of any number on a meter, if the patrons and club management are claiming its too loud... its too loud. Yep they'll trump any meter on the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Do you use monitors or is the room volume your way of monitoring? maybe try increasing the monitor level to make the band happy and turn down the FOH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Shaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Look, there's been a ton of solutions offered here, between this thread and the last one, among them (1) have everyone turn down; (2) go direct; (3) shields. You've rejected all suggestions. Your band is too loud. It sounds like it's mostly caused by the guitar play. He's unwilling to change. Do music patrons like music played at lower volumes? YES. Will there be sometimes, like due to a large venue, that you'll need to play louder? YES. But that shouldn't affect your stage volume, your PA should handle that. If the dancefloor is packed with DJ music during your breaks, and not while you're playing, there's a huge red flag being waved in front of your face. You have a decision to make. Would you like to be in a succesful band more than you hate to deal with the uncomfortableness of dealing with this issue head on? If you want to be in a more successful band, quit your current one and find people with like minds. There's not going to be a magic remedy at the PA console that's going to solve your problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 ^^ What he said ^^ At this level you are either playing for the crowd or playing for yourself. If your guitarist's "sound" is more important then the band's then your guitarist should go off and play with himself. This is a no brainer. Either you do what the club is asking (doesn't seem unreasonable) or you don't. If the guitarist can't handle lower stage volume and it costs your band money then his decision is already made. He can care less about the band. Why sweat him? This is one of the reasons we went emulated and with IEMs. FOH can be church quiet but our IEMs are as loud as we need. We can turn FOH down so far that you can have a conversation while standing in front of the speaker and turn it all up when the evening requires it. We get more gigs and accolades from the bars because we can do that. To us there is absolutely no difference between the quiet FOH and the cranked FOH. Our IEMs sound exactly the same. We have adapted to our environment and because we put the clubs desires over ours we make quite a lot of money. Our performance is the band not three individuals. Your problem is easily fixed, you just have to want to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Look, there's been a ton of solutions offered here, between this thread and the last one, among them (1) have everyone turn down; (2) go direct; (3) shields. You've rejected all suggestions. Your band is too loud. It sounds like it's mostly caused by the guitar play. He's unwilling to change. Do music patrons like music played at lower volumes? YES. Will there be sometimes, like due to a large venue, that you'll need to play louder? YES. But that shouldn't affect your stage volume, your PA should handle that. If the dancefloor is packed with DJ music during your breaks, and not while you're playing, there's a huge red flag being waved in front of your face. You have a decision to make. Would you like to be in a succesful band more than you hate to deal with the uncomfortableness of dealing with this issue head on? If you want to be in a more successful band, quit your current one and find people with like minds. There's not going to be a magic remedy at the PA console that's going to solve your problems. This... I threw a band out of my club that was so loud on stage that the poor sound guy had no longer any control over the FOH volume! He had only voice going through the PA since the band wouldn't turn down on stage, no matter what they were asked to do so I shut them down.There is no control possible in FOH in a small, cramped venue, full of people, if the stage level is too loud. There simply isn't a way to control levels if everyone on stage is louder than hell! In a huge venue, no one hears it, but in a small venue, it's what it's all about. You don't need a sound/volume recommendation, you need more professional musicians that understand what it takes to deliver a good mix. JMO Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marko Posted January 20, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 The whole thing might be moot at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Good to go then. The person paying you is priority #1. They want it lower, you turn it down. The next on the is the crowd, you want them to be happy with the mix. Third is the band, and how well your tone & playing fits into the mix as a whole. Then comes yourself, and doing the best you can, fitting into all the other categories. Would I love to dime my 100W JCM800? You bet. But I'd soon be in an empty room, or having my ass kicked. I LOVE chorus & use it all the time when I practice. But in a band situation, it makes my guitar disappear in the mix, so I gig without it. We always bring our full rig, (4600W) & mic everything, but that doesn't mean it's going to destroy the room with volume. You have to be appropriate for the room. You have to be. Good fir you, letting that guy go, you'll be better off in the long run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marko Posted January 20, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Well, Gil called the other member, and apparently they communicated, and guitarist is taking it back out. He feels it's wrong to let the bars and people down, so if I get the email, I'll honor this week's commitments and get through it somehow. Damn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted January 20, 2012 Members Share Posted January 20, 2012 Well good for you, you won one battle!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now for the big one----------TURN THE F*** DOWN. Good luck with that one. I've worked with a few bands that were absolutely convinced that high stage volume was an essential part of the show. I stopped working with them. I still have sound work, I don't see them gigging anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted January 21, 2012 Members Share Posted January 21, 2012 It might suck now but things might end up so much better that the bull{censored} is worth it. Congrats on holding your ground. I firmly believe you are completely in the right on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 21, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 I'm constantly amazed that ego trumps sense when it comes to many musicians. You're being paid to do a job. Listen to your boss. As a rule of thumb, if your band isn't the ONLY reason people are in the room, then you need to play much lower than you think. People want to chat, and if they can't do that in your venue, they will go elsewhere. And NEVER wait for complaints to turn down. A lot of people will not complain. They simply won't return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted January 22, 2012 Members Share Posted January 22, 2012 Most people believe when their ears hurt it's too loud. If you have too much in the 4khz it's going to hurt peoples ears even at quiet volumes. Yet when you're at a concert with a 100kw system and it's 120db no one is running from the speakers. Then there's also the point where you have to start shouting over the music and this can be a problem too. If 70db is regular conversation, shouting is around 90db, and 120db is around a rock concert you can kinda guestimate where you want to be. At 120 dbc I'm ready to ask for my money back. Shouting may be at 90 db, but so is a loud symphony. That's ideal in my mind. And a lot of people, who have never tried to do rock at this level, will tell you it can't be done. I'm living proof that it can be done very well at volumes where you can hear the audience above your playing. The drummer for that is critical. Bob Blanchard in Texas was my drummer at one of the times. (Harry) Bing Crosby was at another time. (If anyone knows Bing, tell him I'd like to get in touch with him. Haven't talked to him in about 30 years.) It's hard to find a drummer who can play at very low volumes and sound good. (And they are worth their own weight in gold.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marko Posted January 22, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2012 Sorry Craigv if this isn't appropriate for this room, but since the drama did come out and the thread is still on the first page, I thought I'd share the outcome. Friday's gig was great (short of one complaint from the owner that it was too loud), and sounded great, which put further butt-hurt on the guitarist and his side-kick pretend soundguy. After the gig everyone seemed civil, so since Saturday's gig (new place) was close to an hour away, we agreed to ride out together in the guitarist's four-door pickup pulling the trailer. Sound guy meets us at the gig. After loading in, I saw the sonic maximizer was back in my rack, and I could hardly believe it, but apparently it must have been something I could imagine since I went to take a look before setting up. Fader guy saw my face and said "Yep, it's there and that's where it's gonna stay. I didn't know what to do, but I couldn't endure this. I gave them a screwdriver and said we'd play when it's out. Guitarist and side-kick teamed up on me, and said if I didn't play, they'd leave me there stranded, which I guess they felt was their ace in the hole. I just repeated that we'd play when it's out of the rack. Then they said they'd set up and play without a bassist. I reminded them (in order to keep Gil out of it) that the drums were also mine, took the cymbal bag to my bar stool and told them to let me know when it was out of the rack. So, they took it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted January 22, 2012 Members Share Posted January 22, 2012 Eliminate all amps on stage and get a electronic drum kit, go in ears as well! Quiet stage is the best solution I have ever come across to controlled foh volumes. Rod I play in a wedding band that did that very thing: eliminate all amps & monitors... we use the Hearback system from Hear Technologies, everything goes direct, works great. Drummer uses Roland V Drums, bass plyr. has a DI, gtr. uses a Line 6 Floor POD thingie (I'm kybd. plyr.). Two little QSC K12's on sticks w/two small JBL EON subwoofers, NO monitors or amps on stage - NO stage volume whatsoever. I have a hard time seeing this scenario for a small club/bar band though - even though it totally controls your volume, it does put you at a bit of a "disconnect" from the audience , esp. me (on keys) & the gtr. & drums, all in the backline, all back there like dorks, wearing over-ear closed headphones. I suppose w/in-ear "buds" it'd be less of a disconnect but the stereo field sounds so sweet when I monitor it on stage that way, w/a pair of SONY MDR-7506 phones. The lead singers do use wireless mics., so sometimes they walk out into the crowd & can actually hear it coming from the mains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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