Members wesg Posted July 30, 2015 Members Share Posted July 30, 2015 I have been known to put my subs in a corner if the corner isn't too far from the stage. You get the acoustic benefits of coupling, you get the benefit of them being against the wall, and you can't really tell by listening that they're off center. The frequencies are too low for our heads to figure that out. It can make the stage pretty bassy, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 30, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 You were perhaps being facetious about KW181's, but it might be worthwhile to consider using just a pair of great performing speakers (tops and subs as well) over a bunch of lesser but lighter. I've seen few weddings that require multiple tops per side, and those would command a price that would make rental a preferable choice for you. The issue comes down to the weight maximum you find acceptable. Ramps and wheels of course. Another pair of hands. One trip through the kitchen versus three. Everything matters, you just have to sort out the order they fall into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted July 30, 2015 Members Share Posted July 30, 2015 Beat me to it, coupling shows benefits regardless if it's center or on the side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted July 30, 2015 Members Share Posted July 30, 2015 Something else here I wonder about. One of your intended directions is weddings. Having been to more than a few myself, a loud band would not be well received primarily due to the broad range of ages in attendance. People like to talk and mingle without having to yell. Are you certain your current rig is lacking or perhaps weddings in your area are different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted July 30, 2015 Members Share Posted July 30, 2015 If it were me I would buy one more zxa1 sub (maybe two) and couple all of them and keep it all the same. I have one and think it sounds great and its even better for my back. I wouldn't buy behringer speakers. 3 or 4 zxa1 subs would still look good center loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jesseweiss Posted July 30, 2015 Members Share Posted July 30, 2015 So Al, do you think it isn't worth it to get a sub until I can afford 2? I haven't used the 550's for a gig yet (and won't until Sept) so I haven't been able to open them up. I know they are pretty high SPL speakers and get some good low end (having heard them when shopping around) for their size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 30, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 30, 2015 Something else here I wonder about. One of your intended directions is weddings. Having been to more than a few myself' date=' a loud band would not be well received primarily due to the broad range of ages in attendance. People like to talk and mingle without having to yell. Are you certain your current rig is lacking or perhaps weddings in your area are different.[/quote'] It's not a question of volume so much as coverage. I'd say coupling 2 of these little 12 subs on each side would probably do the trick in most rooms. Like I said, I used the QSC K181's and they kick total arse and I'll probably end up getting a pair of those down the line but right now it's a matter of weight, packing room and the fact that none of us wants big, heavy gear. We're designing this entire band and it's gear to be a smaller footprint yet powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted July 30, 2015 Members Share Posted July 30, 2015 If you've determined that the footprint of your current gear simply doesn't cut it then part of your decusion is already made. As far as coverage, low frequencies are predominantly omni directional so that shouldn't be as much of an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 30, 2015 Author Members Share Posted July 30, 2015 Right...I'm starting to question if the little EV's will go down low enough for us to be satisfied...We have an electronic kit, all bass, GTRs and everything else is direct, all on ears etc..So maybe it makes sense to have a fuller sounding system. I'm digging the specs on the EV EKX-18SP. Thinking about getting 2 of them and calling it a day. Using my little ZXA1's for my acoustic trio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted July 30, 2015 Members Share Posted July 30, 2015 Remember that clustered (touching) subs will generally have better coverage than subs on either side of the stage. These articles aren't directly on point for your situation, but the foundational principles are there. http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/in_search_of_the_power_alley/http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/the_end_fire_cardioid_subwoofer_array_made_visible/ You have to remember that speakers separated by a small multiple of their active wavelengths interact in interesting ways. The best way to avoid these interactions is to use a point source. A point source in a corner eliminates reflections from those walls. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 30, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 The packing room issue doesn't favor more small boxes, but rather one larger one. A single 18" box, if small, will do the job and take less space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 30, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 It's not a question of volume so much as coverage. Coverage isn't an issue with subs. The frequencies are almost totally non-directional, so as long as it sounds good and gets as loud as you need, the room will be filled. Now if you wind up doing many outdoor gigs, you'll need all the sub support you can get, as outdoors swallows up LF. That's when you need the big high-performance boxes, and lots of 'em. I think your idea of a pair of the 18's and the current pair you own is good, that'll give you the flexibility to handle tiny rooms and larger gigs, without making a huge investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philw44 Posted July 30, 2015 Members Share Posted July 30, 2015 If I was you, I'd use all four of those tops if you can fit them in your car/van. Run two for the band only and two for vocals only. It will clean up your mix like a dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted July 31, 2015 Members Share Posted July 31, 2015 I would question if the additional effort would provide tangible results at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted July 31, 2015 Members Share Posted July 31, 2015 No questions that a quality 18 inch sub will make a difference. You did say in your first post your not getting any younger and humping 90 pound subs up a set of stairs is a lot different than 45 pound subs. Weddings typically don't want chest pounding volumes. Maybe you should rent or borrow a pair and see how you feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 31, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 If I was you' date=' I'd use all four of those tops if you can fit them in your car/van. Run two for the band only and two for vocals only. It will clean up your mix like a dream...[/quote'] How do you suggest he accomplish this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted July 31, 2015 Members Share Posted July 31, 2015 The EVs you currently have are very small and will not look bad center coupled like two 18s. Just coupling them should give you at least 3db plus improvement and adding a third will bring it up to about 5db my guess. You can get another EV for around 500 and have everything match and coupled properly. Like others have said you can put them on the side or corner if that works better for you. Sound wise for wedding I think it would sound good (5db improvement at least) but if your going for that look maybe you should look at just selling them and getting maybe a more powerful 15 or 18 for that thump. I was at a country show and they had two big 18s in a room that would hold about 150 people my guess. Me and my friends found that the bass was uncomfortable to be near and impossible to talk at all even some distance from the stage. Something to think about with a wedding band IMO. (yes I know they have volume controls) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted July 31, 2015 Members Share Posted July 31, 2015 Interesting idea, I have never heard of anyone doing that before. It would certainly remove intermodulation distortion if that is a problem with that equipment. It could be accomplished by running vocals out a post-fader aux or a subgroup out. In both cases you would need to disable routing of the vocal channels to the main outs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted July 31, 2015 Members Share Posted July 31, 2015 I believe this approach significantly overcomplicates the OPs set-up. While a "highs only" dual system has its followers, I can see no viable reason to do it at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 31, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 Interesting idea, I have never heard of anyone doing that before. It would certainly remove intermodulation distortion if that is a problem with that equipment. It could be accomplished by running vocals out a post-fader aux or a subgroup out. In both cases you would need to disable routing of the vocal channels to the main outs. I'm certain the physical drivers introduce far more distortion than IMD in the electronics will ever contribute. And that's distortion added by the drivers to even a pure sine signal. This one's way to far right of the decimal point to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted August 1, 2015 Members Share Posted August 1, 2015 yea true. However if I have 3 per side it will be plenty loud enough. I'm doing weddings and private events NOT Bars...The EV is 126 DB but has GREAT sound. SIZE is what's of paramount importance here so the Yamaha at 72lbs compared to 46lbs of the Yamaha is a big difference. I'd hope it sounds bigger. I'd likely still need at least 2 of those per side I should think for a band. At that point I'm at $1400 a side and there are MANY killer sub options I could go with. How about the KSub? Does anyone have experience with it? Will 2 of those be enough for my purposes? In my last wedding band we used two QSC KW181's and it seemed to be great. Don't buy the Behringer subs. You will regret it. They are not in the same league as your current little EV's. The KSub is NOTHING like the KW181. The KW181 is a very good sounding sub with plenty of output. The KSub is a one-note-wonder with no where near the room filling punch of the KW. What kind of music do you play? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanteSound_Don Posted August 1, 2015 Members Share Posted August 1, 2015 Hey guys, I used to manage a Guitar Center a few years ago. We had all the subs mentioned so far out for demo. Why not just go to your local GC and listen for yourself? Take a few tracks that you love that have good LF output and torture a few subs. Use the KW181 as the standard and compare everything against it. From personal experience, the Behringer subs sound good on paper, but the solution to your needs. They are shy on output and don't go very low in real world situations. From what I've heard recently, one of the best value for the dollar spent subs is the Mackie SRM 1850. It is pretty small, fairly lightweight (74#) and can hit 40Hz with authority. One of these will outrun both your EV subs combined. You can get one for around $900, less if you wait for a sale. GC runs 20% off sales 3-4 times a year so if you can wait (and save your $$) you might get them as cheap as $720! For that price nothing even come close to their performance. Get a folding hand truck at Home Depot and that will help you carry them into your gigs. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted August 1, 2015 Members Share Posted August 1, 2015 The older Mackie active 18s were VERY problematic and often in for repairs according to MANY complaints I've read about them. Are the new ones more reliable? and how is Mackie's Customer service these days? These are important factors to consider IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted August 1, 2015 Members Share Posted August 1, 2015 For many years now I've used a pair of EV Sb120a subs, until the power amps in both died and weren't really worth repairing. Now I have disconnected the amps and converted them to passives. They have always and still serve well for small 50-125 person venues. I originally used them with EV Sx200 cabs, then later with Alto TS112a cabs. Lately I've been using one with a pair of Behringer B210s cabs. They are still working fine, and the weight and footprint are great. One caveat; I do use a Driverack PX as a system controller. I haven't tried the Sb122 passives, but I don't think they would be much different from the actives. I also have extensively used the older Yorkville Ps210p subs. They are a little boomy without proper eq and crossover settings, but are quite small, light, put out a reasonable amount of sound for 100-200 person venues, and sound quite good when properly controlled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanteSound_Don Posted August 1, 2015 Members Share Posted August 1, 2015 Yes, they seemed to have learned from their past mistakes. I own a set of SRM1850's. I rent them out with a set of SRM550's, a Mackie 1642VLZ mixer and all the trimmings (mics, stands, etc) to bands for small to medium bar gigs. I have not had any issues in the year I've owned them. In fact, this set up has paid for itself 3X over! Best system ROI of any rig I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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