Members Just Mike Posted May 7, 2012 Members Share Posted May 7, 2012 As is to book a band in a room that the band is inappropriate for knowing that ahead of time.Without being there/seeing it in action, none of us can really tell the exact situation, but in my experience, outside of having something like a light jazz trio or acoustic duo, it's more often the case that the room is the thing that's wrong for the music/drums, not the other way around. Welcome to reality. When you're in that situation, the only option is to not play loud. It's not like the room is going to or even can change. The only thing that can change is the band volume. And to be a band, everybody has to be on the same page. Anything else is childish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Flogger59 Posted May 7, 2012 Members Share Posted May 7, 2012 Hmmm, page 2 and no one thought of....... smaller drums. I have a Manu Katche kit downstairs in the studio, my drummers Maple Custom kit was blowing us out of the room. Put the right cymbals with it and he can bash away with no ear bleed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted May 7, 2012 Members Share Posted May 7, 2012 Welcome to reality. When you're in that situation, the only option is to not play loud. It's not like the room is going to or even can change. The only thing that can change is the band volume. And to be a band, everybody has to be on the same page. Anything else is childish. . Well no, that's not the only option. One OTHER option is to send the drummer home with his cut of pay because he shouldn't have been there in the first place. Reality should also include declining gigs that are inappropriate for the band in the first place. And reality should also includes knowing that there is a point where one simply can't play effectively anymore because they are spending all their effort trying to reign themselves in physically. Finally, reality should also include understanding that there is a point where drums, for example, simply by nature are going to be too loud for some spaces, and instead of channeling all one's efforts into making things be what they aren't (and often what they can't be), there are smarter uses of time/energy. There's a whole lot of focus on the solution to this 'problem' being the drummer playing quieter. Without being there, then, I'm saying that's very assumptive, and not necessarily the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted May 7, 2012 Members Share Posted May 7, 2012 Hmmm, page 2 and no one thought of....... smaller drums. I have a Manu Katche kit downstairs in the studio, my drummers Maple Custom kit was blowing us out of the room. Put the right cymbals with it and he can bash away with no ear bleed. Smaller drums, in and of themselves, do not guarantee less volume. Depending on shell material, head choice, and tuning, they can actually seem louder because they will tend to project in a more focused manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Just Mike Posted May 8, 2012 Members Share Posted May 8, 2012 Well no, that's not the only option. One OTHER option is to send the drummer home with his cut of pay because he shouldn't have been there in the first place.Reality should also include declining gigs that are inappropriate for the band in the first place. And reality should also includes knowing that there is a point where one simply can't play effectively anymore because they are spending all their effort trying to reign themselves in physically.Finally, reality should also include understanding that there is a point where drums, for example, simply by nature are going to be too loud for some spaces, and instead of channeling all one's efforts into making things be what they aren't (and often what they can't be), there are smarter uses of time/energy.There's a whole lot of focus on the solution to this 'problem' being the drummer playing quieter.Without being there, then, I'm saying that's very assumptive, and not necessarily the solution. You can argue all you want, but realityis that a lot of bands take any gig they can get and have to adapt to the situation. I'm a guitar player and to get "my" sound, I need to play thru a 50w Marshall Plexi (pre JCM) into a 4x12 slant cab loaded with Pre Rola G12-65's. But I've had to make some compromises to play the small clubs we now do. So I play thru a single 12" Line 6 amp that kids buy from Guitar Center. I've gotten used to it and nobody will ever complain about our stage volume anymore. But here's a suggestion for the OP; Give your drummer his drums back in his monitor or (preferably) in ears. It'll make him think he's louder than he is and he'll back off. It works for my drummer and he's a cave man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ptkbass Posted May 8, 2012 Members Share Posted May 8, 2012 "hot rods" Winner. I go so far as to bring a pair along with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ptkbass Posted May 8, 2012 Members Share Posted May 8, 2012 low volume drummers are such a pleasure to work with.) Yes, sir. Yes they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jlb Posted May 8, 2012 Members Share Posted May 8, 2012 Good drummers only play loud when the music calls for it. Drums are actually an instrument that have tonal qualities that change with the amount of force being applied to the skins. Drummers that hit too hard choke the life out of the drums. Would you want to play with a guitar or bass player that hammers the {censored} out of the strings on every note of every song? When I rent my drums out as back line, sometimes they come back with dimples in the heads. This is usually an indication of a drummer with bad stick technique. Next time you hire a drummer, look at the heads of his drums. This may give you an idea of what you are in for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted May 8, 2012 Members Share Posted May 8, 2012 Am I the only person here who has played rock and roll music at levels that we could hear the audience talking while we were playing? Bing didn't have any problems playing at that volume. (Not the famous Crosby.) And we did sound good, never chased anyone away with excessive volume and people tended to stay until we finished at 2 AM. Place always ended up packed. (No matter how slowly they came in.) And yes, they danced. Rock doesn't have to be loud to be good. I love intense music, but I don't confuse intensity with volume. You shouldn't either. (My current band thinks that Soul Sacrifice can only be played loudly. They're wrong but are unlikely to change. We have a stage volume of 107 dbc. Bit loud for my taste but lower than most of the other bands out here. I don't currently have a drummer suitable to work at lower volumes. He does try sometimes.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheDoctorMo Posted May 8, 2012 Members Share Posted May 8, 2012 Am I the only person here who has played rock and roll music at levels that we could hear the audience talking while we were playing? No, you are not the only one. We have had many positive comments by patrons who enjoy being able to talk over the band while we are playing. Recently, however, we got a new drummer who beats the hell out of the drums and cymbals. Now, it is starting to affect our IEM mix because we have to turn down the vocal mics in our IEM feeds just to keep some of the cymbal wash from piercing our brains. Unfortunately, this means I can't hear the vocals as well as I should. This, in turn, affects my performance. This will be a point of discussion at our weekly practice. He is a really great guy and has the potential to be an excellent drummer, but we won't let anyone tarnish our reputation for our sound quality while playing. Also, I won't let another drummer affect my hearing more than it already is. I recently had a baseline hearing test and I'm pretty good in all frequencies except 4k where it drops to the borderline of normal to bad hearing. I currently have a hissing in my ears from past asshat drummers, one who played loud out of spite. Some of the ringing I get is also from my blood pressure meds, but I can live with that. I just can't live with the fact that someone else is hurting my hearing. It's not worth it. BTW, we have no amps or monitors on-stage. I might try the trick of running his drums into his IEMs to see if that quiets him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted May 8, 2012 Members Share Posted May 8, 2012 When I rent my drums out as back line, sometimes they come back with dimples in the heads. This is usually an indication of a drummer with bad stick technique. Next time you hire a drummer, look at the heads of his drums. This may give you an idea of what you are in for. Actually, for any sort of rock drumming, it's often an indication that the drum heads are tuned relatively loose, IME. A lot of drummers like 'big tom' sounds that come from loose tunings, and when heads are loose like that, they are more prone to suck stick mark 'dimples', far more than when hitting a tighter head with much more force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted May 8, 2012 Members Share Posted May 8, 2012 Am I the only person here who has played rock and roll music at levels that we could hear the audience talking while we were playing? Bing didn't have any problems playing at that volume. (Not the famous Crosby.) And we did sound good, never chased anyone away with excessive volume and people tended to stay until we finished at 2 AM. Place always ended up packed. (No matter how slowly they came in.) And yes, they danced. Rock doesn't have to be loud to be good. I love intense music, but I don't confuse intensity with volume. You shouldn't either. (My current band thinks that Soul Sacrifice can only be played loudly. They're wrong but are unlikely to change. We have a stage volume of 107 dbc. Bit loud for my taste but lower than most of the other bands out here. I don't currently have a drummer suitable to work at lower volumes. He does try sometimes.) This is true. Our drummer is pretty good. A bit of a heavy hitter (his nickname is BamBam) but still pretty good. There's a couple venues where it's easy to be too loud but we are able to reign it in. We always think about the group first, and how we sound as a whole, more than everyone trying to have the "Me" show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jlb Posted May 8, 2012 Members Share Posted May 8, 2012 My heads are indeed tuned fairly loose. I play mostly rock music when playing drums and never dimple my heads. I sometimes use larger diameter sticks(5B) too. Applying good technique, a drummer can get the full volume of the drum without damaging the heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soulvillemusic Posted May 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 Hey guys, OP here. Sorry to post something and not check in for a couple of days but I got tied up with some things. For those that asked, the music is "party rock" which consists of a lot of stuff like, Chili Peppers, Weezer, Tom Petty, Prince, Kings of Leon, Sublime, Killers, ....you get the picture. It's all over the place but it's mostly rock based top 40 type stuff. Nothing really heavy. The drummer is 27 and his other original band is heavy. The next closest guy in age in our band is 36 and I'm 42. It's interesting that so many people are quick to say he's probably not a good drummer because he plays loud. He's actually the best technical drummer I've ever played with. That doesn't mean he's my favorite drummer I've played with, he's just the best technically. He has an issue here or there but he can pull off the stuff 95% of the drummers in this world cannot. His kit also sounds better than most kits I have heard and he knows how to tune it. He also has a degree in music. I'm not stating any of this because I am defensive about the comments, nor I am trying to prove he is a good drummer because I can't do that in a forum post. I am just trying to get the point across that he's not some half assed inexperienced non-talented drummer. That doesn't mean he doesn't have room for improvement. He's young and if he's been playing in heavy bands for a while than it may be more habit than anything. I did not talk to him in any length about the issues I was having that night. Maybe he can tone down the volume. It's just not an issue I've ever had to deal with before. That's why I first wanted to know if there were products that could help with the issue like pads or sticks before flat out asking him to play softer. I will talk with him about it. I do agree everyone's volume should be appropriate for the venue but I guess I have more sympathy for a drummer since it's a bit different than just turning down your amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lsits Posted May 9, 2012 Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 Well, the first thing to do would be to have a talk with him. If he's got a degree in music he should know about dynamics. Not everything should be played at fff. If you're avoiding the conversation because you don't want the confrontation, you're just going to make it that much harder when the inevitable occurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jlb Posted May 9, 2012 Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 Well, the first thing to do would be to have a talk with him. If he's got a degree in music he should know about dynamics. Not everything should be played at fff. If you're avoiding the conversation because you don't want the confrontation, you're just going to make it that much harder when the inevitable occurs. +1. I also have a degree in music and have studied with some amazing drummers. I am too in my early 40's and have been playing drums for over 30 years. Dynamics were always the most important part of any lesson. I also became a much better drummer after diving into the world of setting up systems and mixing live shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DBR Posted May 9, 2012 Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 One of two things you can do. Place a plexiglass shield around his ass or turn your volumes down so much that you can barely hear your amps on stage, let the monitors do their work and tell him if he can't hear you, he's too {censored}ing loud! or Get another drummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Voltan Posted May 9, 2012 Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 from what you are saying, he sounds like he is a good drummer but a lousy musician... my primary instrument has been drums since 1971, you do the math... i am a very heavy hitter yet i also like to consider myself versatile enough to play styles which require a softer touch... someone posted that it isnt as simple as a guitarist turning down and they are correct, but if this guy is really good, if he truly is an excellent technical drummer, than playing at speed with control at lower volume levels should not be a problem... if it is then i suggest you find a musician that plays drums and understands dynamics, one that knows how to blend with whatever band they are playing suitable to the venue or drop the smaller venues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members frankthomson Posted May 9, 2012 Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 ^^^soooooooooooo that^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Consume Posted May 9, 2012 Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 Smaller drums, in and of themselves, do not guarantee less volume.Depending on shell material, head choice, and tuning, they can actually seem louder because they will tend to project in a more focused manner. Exactly - I could make that kit sound just as loud as a regular sized kit with very little effort - a smaller snare doesn't mean it has less volume - the same for the kick and toms.My brother's drummer plays a 4-piece kit (12" & 14" toms, an 18" kick and a 3"x13" brass snare), uses 5A sticks, and he is every bit as loud as anybody else with standard sized drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted May 9, 2012 CMS Author Share Posted May 9, 2012 Hey guys, OP here. Sorry to post something and not check in for a couple of days but I got tied up with some things. For those that asked, the music is "party rock" which consists of a lot of stuff like, Chili Peppers, Weezer, Tom Petty, Prince, Kings of Leon, Sublime, Killers, ....you get the picture. It's all over the place but it's mostly rock based top 40 type stuff. Nothing really heavy. The drummer is 27 and his other original band is heavy. The next closest guy in age in our band is 36 and I'm 42. It's interesting that so many people are quick to say he's probably not a good drummer because he plays loud. He's actually the best technical drummer I've ever played with. That doesn't mean he's my favorite drummer I've played with, he's just the best technically. He has an issue here or there but he can pull off the stuff 95% of the drummers in this world cannot. His kit also sounds better than most kits I have heard and he knows how to tune it. He also has a degree in music. I'm not stating any of this because I am defensive about the comments, nor I am trying to prove he is a good drummer because I can't do that in a forum post. I am just trying to get the point across that he's not some half assed inexperienced non-talented drummer. That doesn't mean he doesn't have room for improvement. He's young and if he's been playing in heavy bands for a while than it may be more habit than anything.I did not talk to him in any length about the issues I was having that night. Maybe he can tone down the volume. It's just not an issue I've ever had to deal with before. That's why I first wanted to know if there were products that could help with the issue like pads or sticks before flat out asking him to play softer. I will talk with him about it. I do agree everyone's volume should be appropriate for the venue but I guess I have more sympathy for a drummer since it's a bit different than just turning down your amp. To be clear, my statement earlier was that you can't call a drummer good if he can't manage his dynamics. It's part of the package. It's as important as any other technical or emotional aspect of playing. And it really shouldn't have to be discussed with a pro....he should be as aware of his surroundings as you are. He should hear the rest of the band, he should notice the small room and be mindful of how loud everyone is playing. This should not be a foreign concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Speedhead Posted May 9, 2012 Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 My heads are indeed tuned fairly loose. I play mostly rock music when playing drums and never dimple my heads. I sometimes use larger diameter sticks(5B) too. Applying good technique, a drummer can get the full volume of the drum without damaging the heads. I keep mine tuned fairly loose as well, and in general do not get dimples in the drumheads. BUT, In the past i always used sticks with nylon tips. On numerous ocasions I have had the nylon tip fly off of the stick(I recall seeing it happen a couple times, flying across the room like a nylon bullet! ) or break off and before I noticed the missing tip, I have marked up my drum heads. And this does not take long with a tipless drum stick. I no longer use nylon tips, so this is no longer an issue for me but could be why you see some rough looking drums some of the time......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted May 9, 2012 Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 I haven't read all the suggestions... there wasn't enough pictures to sustain my interest... and maybe somebody else has already suggested this idea... anyhoo: I suggest to hire an interim drummer, any drummer, who can keep their dynamics appropriate for the smaller venues... to replace your regular drummer on the first upcoming small venue show. It doesn't matter otherwise how good the interim drummer is *so-long as he/she is not so horrible that the rest of the band can still function*. Just a tick or two above *that* will suffice... all you gotta do is get through the gig with the interim drummer. It's almost assured your regular drummer will attend the performance... and if you get a lousy enough interim drummer, it's almost assured your regular drummer will point it out, to you, what a total LOOSER your interim drummer is... whereupon you reply: "Yea, I know, but *he can play quietly enough to allow us to book the gig*, and *that's* the primary criterion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soulvillemusic Posted May 9, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 All good advice guys. I will work on the issue with him. I don't really think I paid much attention to what loud drums did to the FOH until I was the one running sound! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LewnWorx Posted May 9, 2012 Members Share Posted May 9, 2012 I suggest to hire an interim drummer, any drummer, who can keep their dynamics appropriate for the smaller venues... to replace your regular drummer on the first upcoming small venue show. It doesn't matter otherwise how good the interim drummer is *so-long as he/she is not so horrible that the rest of the band can still function*. Just a tick or two above *that* will suffice... all you gotta do is get through the gig with the interim drummer. It's almost assured your regular drummer will attend the performance... and if you get a lousy enough interim drummer, it's almost assured your regular drummer will point it out, to you, what a total LOOSER your interim drummer is... whereupon you reply: "Yea, I know, but *he can play quietly enough to allow us to book the gig*, and *that's* the primary criterion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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