Members Bugzie Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Prerecorded music (especially todays) doesn't have the dynamics necessary to judge a speaker. Compression robs dynamics and its the wave of the future as far as music goes. Add in the synthesized bass and it's a crap shoot. There is a pianist around here that does a lot of dinner music gigs that could change your mind. K10's over K subs. I'm not a fan of the Ksub by any means, but that combo makes his keys shine. Mind you the fella is all of 70 and a retired music teacher. He can play. Really play! It just amazes me that when he starts a song that people are familiar with, the place goes totally quiet. Are they the greatest thing since sliced bread...nah. But are they a decent performer at their price point. Oh yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bugzie Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Prerecorded music (especially todays) doesn't have the dynamics necessary to judge a speaker. Compression robs dynamics and its the wave of the future as far as music goes. Add in the synthesized bass and it's a crap shoot. There is a pianist around here that does a lot of dinner music gigs that could change your mind. K10's over K subs. I'm not a fan of the Ksub by any means, but that combo makes his keys shine. Mind you the fella is all of 70 and a retired music teacher. He can play. Really play! It just amazes me that when he starts a song that people are familiar with, the place goes totally quiet. Are they the greatest thing since sliced bread...nah. But are they a decent performer at their price point. Oh yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 My experience with the QSC K12 speakers has been quite good. If I needed a supply of rental cabs, these would be my go-to box for many applications. As for sound quality, in my book they are 'good.' Not great or amazing, but good. There are other cabs in this price range which arguably sound better, but the K12's light weight and feature set are hard to pass up. A note of advice with powered speakers - ignore all the wattage mumbo jumbo. Since all the amplification and processing is in the box, just ignore all that and focus on the measured specs and how it sounds to you. I guarandamntee that my ELX112Ps do not really ever get close to 1kw sent to the drivers. But, they do get loud enough and sound good enough for my work. On the OP's original question, just about any solid mid-level two way cab would hang with a properly processed and amplified K12. The K12 and its counterparts do it all in one box for less $, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dedmeet Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 My experience with the QSC K12 speakers has been quite good. If I needed a supply of rental cabs, these would be my go-to box for many applications. As for sound quality, in my book they are 'good.' Not great or amazing, but good. There are other cabs in this price range which arguably sound better, but the K12's light weight and feature set are hard to pass up. A note of advice with powered speakers - ignore all the wattage mumbo jumbo. Since all the amplification and processing is in the box, just ignore all that and focus on the measured specs and how it sounds to you. I guarandamntee that my ELX112Ps do not really ever get close to 1kw sent to the drivers. But, they do get loud enough and sound good enough for my work. On the OP's original question, just about any solid mid-level two way cab would hang with a properly processed and amplified K12. The K12 and its counterparts do it all in one box for less $, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by dedmeet My experience with the QSC K12 speakers has been quite good. If I needed a supply of rental cabs, these would be my go-to box for many applications.As for sound quality, in my book they are 'good.' Not great or amazing, but good. There are other cabs in this price range which arguably sound better, but the K12's light weight and feature set are hard to pass up.A note of advice with powered speakers - ignore all the wattage mumbo jumbo. Since all the amplification and processing is in the box, just ignore all that and focus on the measured specs and how it sounds to you. I guarandamntee that my ELX112Ps do not really ever get close to 1kw sent to the drivers. But, they do get loud enough and sound good enough for my work. On the OP's original question, just about any solid mid-level two way cab would hang with a properly processed and amplified K12. The K12 and its counterparts do it all in one box for less $, though. What alternatives are there for the same price as the QSC? I am really interested to know what other active speakers are better than QSC for the same price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stunningbabe Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by dedmeet My experience with the QSC K12 speakers has been quite good. If I needed a supply of rental cabs, these would be my go-to box for many applications.As for sound quality, in my book they are 'good.' Not great or amazing, but good. There are other cabs in this price range which arguably sound better, but the K12's light weight and feature set are hard to pass up.A note of advice with powered speakers - ignore all the wattage mumbo jumbo. Since all the amplification and processing is in the box, just ignore all that and focus on the measured specs and how it sounds to you. I guarandamntee that my ELX112Ps do not really ever get close to 1kw sent to the drivers. But, they do get loud enough and sound good enough for my work. On the OP's original question, just about any solid mid-level two way cab would hang with a properly processed and amplified K12. The K12 and its counterparts do it all in one box for less $, though. What alternatives are there for the same price as the QSC? I am really interested to know what other active speakers are better than QSC for the same price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by stunningbabe What alternatives are there for the same price as the QSC? I am really interested to know what other active speakers are better than QSC for the same price. Yamaha's DXR series of active speakers are similar in every way to the K series but sound better at high volume and are a little less $$$. I love 'em!Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Flogger59 Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by stunningbabe so...this means that an active speaker is cheaper costing to produce vs a passive set up with separate speaker, DSP and amp? Well, it's all in the same packaging (don't need boxes for the DSP and power amp), and it all runs off one power supply. So, yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by stunningbabe What alternatives are there for the same price as the QSC? I am really interested to know what other active speakers are better than QSC for the same price. I think the PRX line is a better sounding speaker, overall, than the K speakers. I have noticed a lot of "harshness" in the highs when the K speakers are loud, but I have also heard that this can pretty easily be EQ'd out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by ChiroVette I think the PRX line is a better sounding speaker, overall, than the K speakers. I have noticed a lot of "harshness" in the highs when the K speakers are loud, but I have also heard that this can pretty easily be EQ'd out. I agree 110%,,, it's not even close. The PRX's sound much more transparent and musical, and project much better too.Frankly, I think the only guys who like the K-boxes, are the guys who make money renting them out, or selling them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by Bobby1Note Frankly, I think the only guys who like the K-boxes, are the guys who make money renting them out, or selling them. Is the conspiracy theory still alive up north? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by stunningbabe What alternatives are there for the same price as the QSC? I am really interested to know what other active speakers are better than QSC for the same price. For roughly 2/3 the the price, in the USA anyway, the RCF 310A or 312A shines and remains the best bang for the buck in a powered cabinet, IMO. This is especially true if used with subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by Bobby1Note Good Lord, I don't know what you guys are hearing with the K-Series, but I have yet to hear ONE that sounds good. Now, in fairness, let it be said that I've never heard the K-series "Live",,,, only with pre-recorded music. You answered your own question. It depends on what you play through it. I guarantee you that there is some song that will make any one particular system sound great while making another sound not so good. IMHO the least smart thing you can do is to audition any speakers by playing your favorite songs (unless they are the only songs to ever be played through the speakers). I don't listen for how it sounds "out of the box" I listen for its potential after I get it dialed in. EQ and "harshness" are very low on my list of what to listen for as they are easily adjusted. Articulation is up at the top of my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by abzurd For roughly 2/3 the the price, in the USA anyway, the RCF 310A or 312A shines and remains the best bang for the buck in a powered cabinet, IMO. This is especially true if used with subs. The only downside to the RCF's is that they don't have full grills. They used to make a full grill version of the 310A but it was unavailable when I bought my 310A's . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by Bobby1Note I agree 110%,,, it's not even close. The PRX's sound much more transparent and musical, and project much better too.Frankly, I think the only guys who like the K-boxes, are the guys who make money renting them out, or selling them. Well what's your definition of success? For most of us this is a business and making money with our tools is out objective.Stuck on a desert island I could do a successful show with any number of speakers. Would you be willing to bet your life that you could pick out speaker A or speaker B once they were professionally setup? I wouldn't. I think people here too many logos and not enough tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by dboomer Would you be willing to bet your life that you could pick out speaker A or speaker B once they were professionally setup? I wouldn't. I think this may be a problematic position to take. Because, to be quite honest, if a sound engineer knows how to tune a system to its best sonic advantage, he or she would probably NOT be using an active system anyway because the passive equivalent, in the hands of someone highly skilled, will sound better than the active system in the same hands.So I have to take some issue with your position on the grounds that the majority of people who are buying active cabs are like me, not skilled, and not able to muster the experience to "dial in" the system that may sound weaker out of the box. In short, if a guy like agedhorse, for instance, decided to use this class of speakers for a series of small gigs, then I have absolutely no doubt that whether he was using K's, KW's, PRX's, or DSR's, that the system will sound as good as it could sound and that, in his hands, they would probably be roughly equivalent or indistinguishable to any listener.But since we are NOT talking about guys with his experience or even guys with your experience, people here should be sensitive to the real question, which I believe to be the single most important question on this class of speakers. That question is, "What speaker sounds best out of the box and in the hands of the less than experienced user?"Because to be quite honest, I couldn't personally care less if a guy with your skills, which I assume to be considerable, can tune the systems to sound identical. See my point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 There are plenty of the most highly skilled engineers using powered speakers... Meyer, EAW, JBL vertec, rcf Tt and hla for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by agedhorse There are plenty of the most highly skilled engineers using powered speakers... Meyer, EAW, JBL vertec, rcf Tt and hla for example. Okay, good to know. I always assumed that, given the choice, the more experienced pro would choose the passive cabs over the active equivalents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 The RCF TT cabs simply sound fantastic. Articulate and as crisp of a top end as I have heard. Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by dboomer You answered your own question. It depends on what you play through it. I guarantee you that there is some song that will make any one particular system sound great while making another sound not so good. IMHO the least smart thing you can do is to audition any speakers by playing your favorite songs (unless they are the only songs to ever be played through the speakers). I don't listen for how it sounds "out of the box" I listen for its potential after I get it dialed in. EQ and "harshness" are very low on my list of what to listen for as they are easily adjusted. Articulation is up at the top of my list. This is where having a digital board with recording is handy. You can literally audition your own band through the system. I did that a few years ago at a store where they allowed me to bring in my board and my current subwoofer. Then last weekend I did the same with the FBT's I was auditioning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by ChiroVette I couldn't personally care less if a guy with your skills, which I assume to be considerable, can tune the systems to sound identical. See my point? It's kinda like everything else in life. Once you understand it it's just not that difficult. But until you understand it it's black magic.I do understand your point and to that point I have been developing live sound products with as much AI as we can squeeze into it. We've still got a long way to go before the "spellchecker" for live sound is ready to go. It will be a great day when computers can handle all the mundane and allow the artists or engineers to have to deal with only artistic concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by dboomer You answered your own question. It depends on what you play through it. I guarantee you that there is some song that will make any one particular system sound great while making another sound not so good. IMHO the least smart thing you can do is to audition any speakers by playing your favorite songs (unless they are the only songs to ever be played through the speakers). I don't listen for how it sounds "out of the box" I listen for its potential after I get it dialed in. EQ and "harshness" are very low on my list of what to listen for as they are easily adjusted. Articulation is up at the top of my list. Don,I've never once gone out specifically to audition a K-series box. The first time I saw one, was the K-8. The compact size attracted me, and the store clerk offered a demo, with HIS music. We could not get a transparent sound from that box, no matter what he tried.I'm not listening for what these boxes do at their "extremes" when I'm listening by standing 6 feet away from them, in a tiny store,,,, I'm listening for vocal clarity above all else. I virtually always ask for "live" jazz recordings,,,, Diana Krall,,, Nora Jones, etc., and not "rock". At that point, I'm not asking the clerk to "crank it to 11" because it's pointless in that scenario. If I were listening in a very large showroom, where I could put some distance between myself and those boxes, that might be a different story. Originally Posted by dboomer Well what's your definition of success? For most of us this is a business and making money with our tools is out objective.Stuck on a desert island I could do a successful show with any number of speakers. Would you be willing to bet your life that you could pick out speaker A or speaker B once they were professionally setup? I wouldn't. I think people here too many logos and not enough tools. Don, The original question had nothing to do with "success",,, nor the profitability of selling and renting speakers. It was about "why doesn't the K-series offer a passive box?" Personally, I don't think the actives sound good to start with, and selling "passives" would force QSC to disclose the true parameters of the components in those boxes. That would "kill" their 1000w marketing "schtik". Someone here, a while back, posted that the HF driver was actually a 25 watt unit. That begs the question; why a 500w amp-module, on a 25w driver, if not solely for marketing????? They're not "selling" these boxes to electrical engineers,,, they're "selling" them to John Q. Public.Now, I've also seen here at HC and other sites, several people commenting on how the K-12's didn't throw very well. They said they sounded OK when standing directly in front of them, but as they "walked" the room, they didn't sound good from any appreciable distance.My personal impression, is that these boxes were designed specifically to "sell" in the average small music-store showroom. That 1000 watt "sticker" was merely the "hook and bait".The bottom line for me is, I've never heard a pair sound good, no matter who ran the demo. Admittedly, my pro-sound and light dealer did a fairly decent demo for one of his clients, and I got to listen from 40 feet away, but it was a "disco" demo, over subs. The same client listened to some PRX's, which sounded more transparent and open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 So did you ever buy a pair of pants that were too long and then had them cuffed? When you think of it that way it opens up a lot more possibilities. I'm not defending K series speakers. My company sells a direct competitor, which depending on the job can kick it's ass a lot of times. I'm just trying to demystify the process a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by abzurd This is where having a digital board with recording is handy. You can literally audition your own band through the system. I did that a few years ago at a store where they allowed me to bring in my board and my current subwoofer. Then last weekend I did the same with the FBT's I was auditioning. Except that you are playing into personal tastes and can not identify specific problems that may have a solution that is beyond the tools you may have available, and without those tools you can not identify the potentially better soundig and functioning solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by dboomer We've still got a long way to go before the "spellchecker" for live sound is ready to go. It will be a great day when computers can handle all the mundane and allow the artists or engineers to have to deal with only artistic concerns. Spell checking in the hands of folks that do not understand the language ends up insertinbg a lot of wrong words that "spell" correctly but make the meaning less than worthless. It does make some users feel better about themselves of course. How about a context checker, something that checks the context of a proposed solution? (I know, that's MUCH harder ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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