What speakers+power amp would equal a pair of QSC K12 speakers?

[abzurd]

 

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Except that you are playing into personal tastes and can not identify specific problems that may have a solution that is beyond the tools you may have available, and without those tools you can not identify the potentially better soundig and functioning solution.

 

I don't get this. It's all context and personal taste. How is playing a CD differ (which I do as well). I'm just saying being able to put the speakers "on task" is a great thing. Would you rather drive a race car you're looking at around the block of your neighborhood or on a race track?

Case in point. I didn't think the tiny @$$ FBT subs I recently auditioned were going to cut it. I put our actual kick drum through it and knew immediately and without question that it was going to do the job I needed it to. I liked it, ergo it works for me.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by abzurd

I don't get this. It's all context and personal taste. How is playing a CD differ (which I do as well). I'm just saying being able to put the speakers "on task" is a great thing. Would you rather drive a race car you're looking at around the block of your neighborhood or on a race track?

Case in point. I didn't think the tiny @$$ FBT subs I recently auditioned were going to cut it. I put our actual kick drum through it and knew immediately and without question that it was going to do the job I needed it to. I liked it, ergo it works for me.

Because you can not identify and thus correct time domain problems, are operating and making corrections to an open loop situation that bears only mild similarity to when you close the loop (with mice in the equation), etc.

[dboomer]

I can see it a couple of ways. If you are selecting speakers for your band than it would seem that the artists themselves should be the deciders on what sounds good/great based on their own material. If OTOH you are a sound provider and will need to work with many different sources it's a not such a good way to decide. However listening to someone else's band recorded who knows how may or may not tell you much.

You might also reasonable consider whether or not you might need other tools to tweak them or decide that you do will have access to those tools and will just have to do with them as is.

[dboomer]

I can see it a couple of ways. If you are selecting speakers for your band than it would seem that the artists themselves should be the deciders on what sounds good/great based on their own material. If OTOH you are a sound provider and will need to work with many different sources it's a not such a good way to decide. However listening to someone else's band recorded who knows how may or may not tell you much.

You might also reasonable consider whether or not you might need other tools to tweak them or decide that you do will have access to those tools and will just have to do with them as is.

[abzurd]

 

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Because you can not identify and thus correct time domain problems, are operating and making corrections to an open loop situation that bears only mild similarity to when you close the loop (with mice in the equation), etc.

 

I think you've switched gears on the topic. I'm not talking about running a battery of tests on a bench or taking it for a 2 week trial to test in every situation imaginable. I'm simply saying if I have to walk into a (insert music store here) and listen to speakers then I'd prefer to bring in stuff I'm used to / sick of. At least I know how it sounds and have a baseline as to whether it sounds better or worse than what I'm used to. If I'm going to be using it for the exact same thing every single time (to reinforce my band) then if it sounds good doing that, then it's passed the test I needed it to pass. Whether you agree or not, I'll stand firm that it's better than letting the sales guy play "something" through it that they have laying around.

[Bobby1Note]

 

Originally Posted by dboomer

You answered your own question. It depends on what you play through it. I guarantee you that there is some song that will make any one particular system sound great while making another sound not so good. IMHO the least smart thing you can do is to audition any speakers by playing your favorite songs (unless they are the only songs to ever be played through the speakers).

I don't listen for how it sounds "out of the box" I listen for its potential after I get it dialed in. EQ and "harshness" are very low on my list of what to listen for as they are easily adjusted. Articulation is up at the top of my list.

 

 

Originally Posted by dboomer

So did you ever buy a pair of pants that were too long and then had them cuffed?

When you think of it that way it opens up a lot more possibilities.

I'm not defending K series speakers. My company sells a direct competitor, which depending on the job can kick it's ass a lot of times. I'm just trying to demystify the process a bit.

 

I understand your point, and I don't disagree. Maybe these boxes do sound better "live" too, I dunno. I've just not been impressed with any demo's that I've encountered "to date". I know there's a helluva lot of guys over at AGF's acoustic forum, that like the "K"'s, but for most of them, it's the only PA speaker they've ever owned or demo'ed. Many bought them over the internet (no demo), and they're going solely by "gushing/glowing" comments/reviews from other guys, who themselves never tried anything else. "This is the GREATEST speaker EVER" kinda thing.

[agedhorse]

It can sound good on open loop (playback) but be horrible close loop (with a mic) because of issues related to time domain problems. For example, a very narrow 6dB peak that is inaudable listening can cause difficult to resolve feedback issues. This is where a powered, (properly) processed spaker can excel.

Originally Posted by abzurd

I think you've switched gears on the topic. I'm not talking about running a battery of tests on a bench or taking it for a 2 week trial to test in every situation imaginable. I'm simply saying if I have to walk into a (insert music store here) and listen to speakers then I'd prefer to bring in stuff I'm used to / sick of. At least I know how it sounds and have a baseline as to whether it sounds better or worse than what I'm used to. If I'm going to be using it for the exact same thing every single time (to reinforce my band) then if it sounds good doing that, then it's passed the test I needed it to pass. Whether you agree or not, I'll stand firm that it's better than letting the sales guy play "something" through it that they have laying around.

[agedhorse]

The K series is a very good speaker. Bobby, you seem to be the only one who is struggling with this.

[Bobby1Note]

 

Originally Posted by agedhorse

The K series is a very good speaker. Bobby, you seem to be the only one who is struggling with this.

 

Andy, if that were the case, everybody here would be running those. I sure as heck don't see many.

Seriously Andy, and this goes back and relates directly to the OP's question; how would YOU go about marketing a "passive" K-Series, without directly (and negatively) exposing what constitutes the active box? You'd have to come up with an actual power-rating, or your service department would be piled to the ceiling with warranty returns. Are you going to tell Joe-Blow that it's ok to run a 500w amp into the hf driver?

How would anyone "market" a passive K series? I think that this is a conundrum QSC has already faced, and it explains why you don't see "passives"..

[Al Poulin]

Using identical power modules for both woofer and horn in all of the K models and simply applying proper processing to each was possibly more cost effective than designing two seperate amplifiers per K box.

At the same time, it gave the QSC marketing department the chance to boast that there was actually 1000 watts of power in these boxes, although they failed to mention that it would never be possible for the full 1000 watts to be used.

I didn't like the 1000 watt thing from day one as everyone seemed to have an instant erection for the K series - feeling that they would never run out of power or be able to limit these speakers. How wrong were they, especially with the Ks in DEEP mode.

Unfortunately, this led to most major manufacturers to magically boost their watt numbers as well to better compete - on paper with QSC. The Ks were still an important product in the story of powered speakers as their combined versatility, power, good looks and incredible warranty kind of raised the bar for other manufacturers.

Al

[dboomer]

Correct ... generally speaking its cheaper to simply use the same amp twice than reduce the power of one by 60%. This is mainly due to the inclusion of lightweight Switch Mode Power Supplies.

As to magically boosting their numbers ... they are probably closer to a method of rating power amps that actually relates to the sound quality when used for audio. Pretty much everyone is now using it. It jumps way up because music never pushes the amp to deliver "continuous" power. So in this case its actually closer to the truth (isn't that what you really want )

[agedhorse]

 

Originally Posted by Bobby1Note

Andy, if that were the case, everybody here would be running those. I sure as heck don't see many.

 

Perhaps this is because they can not effectively compete with Yorkville in Canada? They are everywhere down here, and they have many happy customers.

[Pater Familias]

Didn't mean to start arguments here with my OP. As I said I'm just trying to learn about new things.

I already have QSC K12s for mains. If I want to add an 18" powered sub down the road what would work with the K12? I've heard QSC's sub is not very good, however, I do like the idea of simply plugging in a cable between the top and bottom and all working hunky dory together.

[ChiroVette]

 

Originally Posted by Pater Familias

Didn't mean to start arguments here with my OP. As I said I'm just trying to learn about new things.

I already have QSC K12s for mains. If I want to add an 18" powered sub down the road what would work with the K12? I've heard QSC's sub is not very good, however, I do like the idea of simply plugging in a cable between the top and bottom and all working hunky dory together.

 

The KSub kind of sucks, but the K12's pair very well with QSC's KW181, which is QSC's direct competitor to JBL's PRX618XLF.

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by Pater Familias

Didn't mean to start arguments here with my OP. As I said I'm just trying to learn about new things.

I already have QSC K12s for mains. If I want to add an 18" powered sub down the road what would work with the K12? I've heard QSC's sub is not very good, however, I do like the idea of simply plugging in a cable between the top and bottom and all working hunky dory together.

How much low end you you need? The K-sub might be just fine for your needs. Don't dismiss just because some folks possibly don't share your needs.

[Pater Familias]

 

Originally Posted by agedhorse

How much low end you you need? The K-sub might be just fine for your needs. Don't dismiss just because some folks possibly don't share your needs.

 

Just one 18" eventually, I've just heard the k-sub was "a one-note" sub or monotone.

[ChiroVette]

 

Originally Posted by agedhorse

How much low end you you need? The K-sub might be just fine for your needs. Don't dismiss just because some folks possibly don't share your needs.

 

And ALWAYS take agedhorse's opinion over mine or pretty much anyone else's! lol He really knows his {censored}.

[agedhorse]

 

Originally Posted by Pater Familias

Just one 18" eventually, I've just heard the k-sub was "a one-note" sub or monotone.

 

It's not the most "musical" but it's certainly workable for many applications where it's a suitable speaker for the job. It wouldn't be my choice for heavy rock, metal or big funk.

[abzurd]

In general I really like QSC. Solid company with great products overall. That said, IMO, the K sub is overpriced for what it has to offer. Just my opinion.

[Pater Familias]

 

Originally Posted by abzurd

In general I really like QSC. Solid company with great products overall. That said, IMO, the K sub is overpriced for what it has to offer. Just my opinion.

 

So what alternative(s) is better in your opinion?

[agedhorse]

 

Originally Posted by abzurd

In general I really like QSC. Solid company with great products overall. That said, IMO, the K sub is overpriced for what it has to offer. Just my opinion.

 

I agree, there are better performers for not much more (and even a little less), but the aspect of plug and play may outweigh these benefits.

[abzurd]

Depends what you're looking for. If you don't mind the larger size, the JBL PRX-616XLF or Yorkville LS801P are is close enough to the same money and arguably the best bang for the buck going. My RCF 705-AS is better. Heck, my Yorkville ES700P is better, IMO. The current models (LS701P) are around $800. That would be a comparable size. Heck, I'd take my new 44 lb FBT subs, which are about 1/2 the size of my RCF's or Yorkvilles and cost a few hundred less than the K sub. I just don't care for the sound or the narrow shape of the K sub. The QSC KW sub is a different animal.

[OneEng]

On the K12's debate,

I don't think they are the best speaker in that price range, but they aren't horrible either to my ears. I don't know how well calibrated my ears are to everyone else's

My ears think Meyer UPA's sound fantastic, SRX 715's are wonderful, and JRX anything sounds like crap. In the MI department, the DSR112's top my list, followed by the PRX612 and KW122 and only then the K12. If using a seperate cross-over and a sub, the RCF312a is also more pleasing to my ears then the K12, but all of the speakers in the MI range I have listed are all very good speakers.

I don't care for the K-Sub at all. As Abzurd stated, Yorkville makes some smaller format subs that are much better sounding at or below the price of the K-Sub. If you want a sub for serious low end punch for a rock band, then there are only 2 really good options: The PRX618S-XLF is a very musical and powerful sub capable of extending to pretty low frequencies and sounding good doing it at pretty high SPL levels. If you simply want the most output for the dollar, the Yorkville LS801P is simply astounding in its output capability (but I do like the sound of the XLF's better).

[OneEng]

On the K12's debate,

I don't think they are the best speaker in that price range, but they aren't horrible either to my ears. I don't know how well calibrated my ears are to everyone else's

My ears think Meyer UPA's sound fantastic, SRX 715's are wonderful, and JRX anything sounds like crap. In the MI department, the DSR112's top my list, followed by the PRX612 and KW122 and only then the K12. If using a seperate cross-over and a sub, the RCF312a is also more pleasing to my ears then the K12, but all of the speakers in the MI range I have listed are all very good speakers.

I don't care for the K-Sub at all. As Abzurd stated, Yorkville makes some smaller format subs that are much better sounding at or below the price of the K-Sub. If you want a sub for serious low end punch for a rock band, then there are only 2 really good options: The PRX618S-XLF is a very musical and powerful sub capable of extending to pretty low frequencies and sounding good doing it at pretty high SPL levels. If you simply want the most output for the dollar, the Yorkville LS801P is simply astounding in its output capability (but I do like the sound of the XLF's better).

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by Bobby1Note

I've got a different view;

They don't sell passive versions, because they wouldn't "sell".

The only reason the actives "sell", is because of the marketing bull-{censored} regarding "1000 watts"rating.

A follow-up note here with regard to QSC and passive speakers...

In the lower line speakers targeted at the MI world, operated most typically by non-professionals who tend to struggle withthe basics and take pretty much everything out of context, they offer exclusively powered speakers and perhaps a more MI oriented marketing (as do many other manufacturers).

It should also be noted that for the more professional users, they do offer unpowered speakers. These are not targeted towards the MI crowd, and do not offer MI oriented marketing. They also do not offer MI oriented pricing. For example, here's a new product:

http://www.qscaudio.com/press/news.php?id=401

http://www.qscaudio.com/products/speakers/csm/

and of course, there's all the WideLine products.