Comparison of Tonewoods

[Freeman Keller]

 

 

Too many variables that way Knotty. It would have to be a live situation with me playing it. I know that with over the 70 guitars I've owned there is definitely a consistency in sound with the type of wood they are made of. Most of my experience is with Mahogany, Alder, Ash, Basswood, Poplar and Alder. Can I differentiate between these woods? Yes. Will people doubt me? Of course but that's their problem.

 

That's another interesting statement - I was hoping that when W posted his clips you and Helloween could educate me on what I'm hearing (assuming I could tell any difference). I really want to hear some fat tone.

[onelife]

Mmm. a mahogany hardtail Strat. Sounds interesting. Carvin could probably build one to spec. Now you've gone and given me GAS. Shame on you.

 

Check out Warmoth for a mahogany strat body.

 

[DeepEnd]

^ Haven't checked out Warmoth yet but a mahogany bodied hardtail "Strat" from Carvin would run a bit over $900 with a hard case. Not too bad for a custom US made guitar but out of my budget. A partscaster built around a Warmoth body might be doable but I probably couldn't justify it given my skills.

[Chordite]

Here is a $100 guitar up against a Fender. I would imagine the wood in the cheapo is nowhere near the strat,

But there is not a lot in it. (obviously the guy is a bit smoother on his old guitar that just years of familiarity )

 

[video=youtube_share;qs2JeHkWmPw]

 

Here's one of those SX's being played more consistently. I'm increasingly impressed

[video=youtube_share;LxTluYWRS2U]

Z

[Freeman Keller]

 

Mmm. a mahogany hardtail Strat. Sounds interesting. Carvin could probably build one to spec. Now you've gone and given me GAS. Shame on you.

 

I've been holding on to this for a LP Jr but it could sure be made into a Strat. Don't know how porous it is, might not me fat enough for you.

 

 

[DeepEnd]

I've been holding on to this for a LP Jr but it could sure be made into a Strat. Don't know how porous it is, might not me fat enough for you. . . .

I'm at work so I can't see images but I know you have excellent taste in wood. Thanks anyway though. I rarely play the electric I already have but I'm sure a Freeman Keller special would be superb. and, BTW, I have no idea what "fat" means either.

[Freeman Keller]

I'm at work so I can't see images but I know you have excellent taste in wood. Thanks anyway though. I rarely play the electric I already have but I'm sure a Freeman Keller special would be superb. and, BTW, I have no idea what "fat" means either.

 

Its just an ordinary hunk of Honduras mahogany and a kind of pretty piece of Spanish cedar for a cap. It's been laying about in my wine cellar for the past year waiting for an excuse to become a guitar - I thought a Jr would be fun but had not really made up my mind yet. Stay tuned...

[WRGKMC]

 

This is a significant and interesting statement. That why I would hope that you post the clips "blind" - don't tell us what they are. I remember a posting on UMGF of three clips of two guitars (a D18 and a D28, most people think they know the difference) - 60 percent could identify which of the two were the same guitar (duh). I also did a similar thing a long time ago on the acoustic forum with different string on the same guitar - many people thought that strings that they hated sounded the best, others could hear no difference. And when we did the sound port comparison the player was blindfolded and asked if the hole was open or closed, and to comment on the sound.

 

I think it is interesting to have people comment on the clips, then compare time and frequency waveforms. If you simply play an high E string on each and compare the time domain response it will give you the magnitude (loudness) and sustain (duration), the shape of the envelope should tell something about attack and delay but I'm not smart enough to understand what I'm seeing. Transform to the frequency domain (so called FFT) and you get to see the magnitude of the primary frequency and all the partials ("overtones") - that really shows the difference between what people frequently call "complex" or "warm" tone.

 

Anyway, I too have farted around with this stuff trying to understand my acoustics, I'm new to electric guitars so I would appreciate links to similar studies. By the way, a convenient way to standardize your pick attack is to use a piece of very fine magnet wire - say 42 or 44 gauge - pull the string with a piece until the wire breaks - it will be very consistent.

 

I been too beat up during the week on my day job to get into the studio. I have next week off so I will definitely make a post again. It was a fun challenge and learning experience for many on this forum. I should have saved the original, because this site seems to change over visitors about once a year. I posted it twice then deleted the files from my drop box so I have to recreate them all. Takes about an hour to complete but I promise I will post it again and let you all decide. I already have my own opinions so it makes no sense to convince others. I just lay the files out and let them decide.

[WRGKMC]

 

I think of is as happening the other way around. The wood is made to vibrate by absorbing some of the energy from the vibrating stings. What is left in the strings is what gets picked up by the electronics.

 

There will be some resonances which will actually amplify some of the vibrations at certain frequencies, as you stated in your post, but the energy for this will come at the cost of attenuating certain other frequencies - all this resulting in some complex harmonics being left over for the pickups.

 

Different pieces of wood will absorb different harmonics and the resulting amplified sound will indeed reflect some of these differences.

 

 

Well, of course the string moves first, but sound travels through solids faster then it does through the air. If you put your ear to the body you can clearly hear the string resonance.

 

If the sound can pass down through the bridge and nut into the wood, It can just as easily pass back up from the body into the string. How well its heard depends on the loudness of the amp and wood type. Does anyone really believe there's anything stopping it from passing back up into the strings?

Ever tap on a guitars body when its plugged in and hear the strings start to vibrate?

 

You can even set up a resonant loop. Place the body in front of a loud amp speaker. The sound from the speakers hits the body, the body causes the bridge and strings to vibrate and then you have a resonant feedback loop caused from the body and neck vibration. An acoustic with a piezo pickup will do the same thing except it takes allot less speaker energy to get the body moving.

 

The bridge (or nut) is "not" a one way gate for string vibration. It passes vibrations bidirectional at the same time. Vibration passes into the body like a wave in a lake then makes its way back up through the bridge, loosing some energy and frequency response giving the tone coloration by the time iy gets back in a string.

 

The only thing you will hear uncolored is the initial string attack. Sound travels through wood at 13000 feet per second. Within a microsecond that sound is already passing back up through the nut and bridge again and adding overtones and coloration to string. The body surely isn't a battery that stores those vibrations.

 

In most ways, Strings act exactly like reverb springs and the resonance of the wood will send the sound back up into the strings with coloration from the neck and body, nut bridge etc.

 

A simple analogy would be a tin can telephone. Did you ever make one of those as a kid? you talk in one can, the vibrations are carried through the string to the other can. If you ever used a wire instead of a string, you would still hear the voice with the added metallic sound just like a reverb spring. You can equate that to the tonal differences of gut strings and steel strings on a guitar. The neck/nut and frets also adds about 50% to the overall tone. You would expect that because its attached to one end of the string.

 

I think allot of people put too much emphasis on what pickups actually do to produce sound. Maybe its because they lack a complete understanding in basic science and electronics. Other then the fact the are just low fidelity transducers that color the sound, there's really not much difference between them and early telephone gear. If you were to take a thin round steel disk and suspend it over the pickup poles and speak into it, the pickups would easily pick up the voice.

 

Another example, is if you have a semi hollow pickup guitar with regular pickups. Turn the volume up and speak into the F hole with the strings open. The body will make the strings vibrate and you will be able to hear the voice through the guitar.

 

In essence solid body electric is exactly the same as an acoustic minus the air chamber that excites, compresses and projects the sound like a horn. I cant understand why people thinks the sound ends at the bridge and nut.

 

If you want to go looking for it, there is computerized version that depicts how sound moves a guitar body. It's been posted here on this site at least a half dozen times over the years. It helps you visualize what actually happens and dispels many myths based on incomplete understandings of what occurs. Vibrations through solids is nearly identical to liquids and gasses. Just because a solid body isn't hear through the air well doesn't mean it isn't producing a whole lot of sound through its solid body. The conversion of vibrations from solid to gas are just poor and a speaker substitutes for the acoustic guitars air chamber. Beyond that there is very little difference between them or any other stringed instrument.

 

 

Here are just a few sites that animate how sound travels. some are very good at depicting what occurs within a guitar. Be sure to click on the sub topic. Each cover a chapter in acoustic science.

 

http://resource.isvr.soton.ac.uk/spc...ics-nature.htm

 

Lasers can be used to map and photograph the instruments vibration. I'd love to see a video of this instead of a still. http://io9.com/5806579/lasers-reveal...s-create-music

 

This one deals with how different notes cause the body to vibrate in a guitar This applies to an electric as well as acoustic but the plane of wood is of course thicker on an electric and wont project the sound like an acoustic does. http://hajos-kontrapunkte.blogspot.c...velopment.html

 

Here's the electric only

 

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/guitars/electric.html

 

This one shows the acoustic with the same movements. It also shows the air projection and guitar back moving which is cool.

 

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/guit...mmingbird.html

 

 

 

Others.

 

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/demos.html

 

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/demo...avemotion.html

 

https://sites.google.com/site/rmackr...10-11/3rd-form

http://www.acs.psu.edu/users/sparrow/animations.html

http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demo...ledPiston.html

http://www.learnerstv.com/animation/...88&cat=Physics

[Jarl Sigurd]

I love everything about Korina.

BTW, what are y'alls comments on the infamous Taylor pallet guitar, the allegedly hi-end acoustic guitar Taylor makes from a randomly selected shipping pallet?

[Quarter]

... BTW' date=' what are y'alls comments on the infamous Taylor pallet guitar, the allegedly hi-end acoustic guitar Taylor makes from a randomly selected shipping pallet? [/quote']

I think it just goes to show that there are lots of non traditional woods and species that can work great in instrument building.

 

[WRGKMC]

Shipping pallets are normally made from pine with 2X4's made of popular.

[knotty]

In respect of solid body electrics I don't think there is much dispute that the wood makes a difference. If the wood vibrates it has an influence on tone, it must.

 

I think the point is, How much influence?

 

Solid body guitars exist primarily to negate any vibration from the body, via feedback, affecting the tone at all. So in effect the influence of the wood is actually engineered out as much as possible. Although in some circumstances the characteristic of the wood is beneficial. EG Basswood bodies in guitars fitted with Floyd Rose to keep the inherent highs from that bridge in check.

 

In any real world situation I can think of the effect wood has on tone is negligible. It is dwarfed in its influence by the amp, speakers, pots, capacitors, effects, room acoustics etc etc etc.

 

So in my opinion technically, Yes.

In practical applications, No.

 

I am happy to be convinced otherwise.

[WRGKMC]

I did the comparison tonight with pics and recorded files as Freeman requested. I started it as a new thread so it would be seen by everyone. Give it a view and a listen and see if your ears are as good as you think they are. All files were links to my drop box file. Hopefully everyone van view and see them. If not let me know.

 

The link is here. http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-41/31228275-tone-wood-followup