Kick drum mic placement?

[Vermoulian]

With perfect 20/20 hindsight' date=' I'm thinking I should have titled this thread differently: What to do if put in a position of micing up a basically unturned set of drums? As in "make it louder but make it sound good at the same time." What to do? Hit the bar? Go home? Grin and bear it and say "it sounds great"? Re-negotiate the contract on the spot? Start pooling through the local "help wanted ads" while ignoring the cumulating mayham? Pull out your smart phone and act like you're unapproachable? Hit the bar and insist on a triple? Strike a pose behind the board and act like you're twiddling with some knobs or doing something "complex" on your tablet to "fix it in the mix"... and act unapproachable? Call or text message your wife and say you might be home really late or unexpectedly early?[/quote']

 

I realize it was a bit of a joke before, but, triggers are not a bad solution in that situation.

[mikekars]

With perfect 20/20 hindsight' date=' I'm thinking I should have titled this thread differently: What to do if put in a position of micing up a basically unturned set of drums? As in "make it louder but make it sound good at the same time." What to do? Hit the bar? Go home? ...[/quote']

 

Tough spots like this have happened in many different diciplines, not just sound reinforcement. Maybe step back and take the pulse of the crowd. If they are blissfully ingnorant then just keep smiling and march forth with pride and conviction. The joke is on them and the rest of the players are in on it! It's only when you betray some hint of weakness that people start questioning your work. (Oh wait, that sounds a little cynical).

 

[1001gear]

 

I can see right through this.

[Audiopile]

Update: I'm currently "getting serious" about "drum tuning" to better understand what can and can't be "fixed in the mix", and/or what can be done to "fix it in the mix" and what it takes to reach a desired end result. Admittedly, I'm not a drummer, and it's been well over a decade since I last held a drum key in my hand... and the last time I actually did hold a drum key in my hand, I think I maybe sort-of had some concept of "drum tuning" and how drums are suppose to function, and drum micing and "fixing it in the mix" techniques... but that was then, this is now... the old dog is working on learning some new tricks.

 

I've been reading and experimenting and hopefully "learning". I own an "ok" trap kit... middle of the road Pearl kit with "decent" heads (likely representative of "common" in the circles I travel in)... which I'm currently working with on the tuning thing with the hope of "understanding" and developing useful technique... understanding that it's way easier to fix it in the mix if there's actually something to work with. My Pearl kit I've owned for a couple years... I have it as part of my backline gear inventory. I've never tuned it... I bought it slightly used from a local working professional. This morning I dove in and first gave each drum a critical listen and OMG... it's like the who's who of awful but all to common of drum tuning... tuned to feel (which felt great), but the tone was classically "awful"... anemic (nearly non-existent) attack and punch immediately replaced by nasty overtones to no end and 5 - 7 second decay times.

 

So-far, there's "some" that is seemingly coming together for me, but clearly there's "other" that I'm struggling with. My current seeming challenge is "pitch tuning" as in what pitch "should" be the target pitch of each drum? I believe there are target pitches that are well served, being: A, C, D, E, and G. But I haven't yet developed the ear to tell what the natural pitch of the drum is vs. where I'm pitching it. I've been working over one of the two rack toms... leaving the other rack tom as a sample of "what it was"... and I've been successful in getting my experiment tom to sound like something other than a kid clanking on a pot with a wooden spoon next to your bed at 4:30am Sunday morning... which is what the untouched sample basically sounds like. I've worked back and forth with down-tuning vs. up-tuning the resonator head vs. the batter head to work on the decay time... and I dunno. I believe I have been successful (actually the difference is night and day) in getting the attack and fundamental to be the predominate sound and have considerably diminished the overtones and decay time on the experiment tom compared to my untouched "standard" tom

 

Any suggestions, thoughts, amusing stories?

[Craig Vecchione]

Mark, I think you have to just try a few locations and mics, and try to choose what sounds best. In these cases of having garbage to work with, anything better than garbage sound is an improvement. It doesn't even rate a "polished turd" rating in many cases.

[Audiopile]

 

Mark' date=' I think you have to just try a few locations and mics, and try to choose what sounds best. In these cases of having garbage to work with, anything better than garbage sound is an improvement. It doesn't even rate a "polished turd" rating in many cases.[/quote']

 

Yup...

 

However, there are 6 trap kits involving 4 area drummers that I routinely work with, and those 4 drummers have expressed enthusiastic interest in what I'm doing. Three of the 4 drummers have been playing professionally for decades, and when I told them what I'm up to, all explained "they don't really know much if anything about tuning drums... and they get their drums sounding "ok" they "think"... certainly "better" than others they've heard, but they have no doubts that their drum tuning knowledge & skills are seriously lacking... they're all "self taught", and don't really know any of the "science" of what's involved... they just try some stuff (religiously every decade or so)... and they mostly tune to feel (last time they think they might have tuned their drums... but they couldn't really remember when that might have been)... and some hit & miss pot-shots at trying some different heads, pillows, moon gels, etc... and admit it sounds "ok" (sort-of) from their drummer's throne, but sounds horrible on any recordings they've made.

 

And all of us, being the other 4 drummers and myself, are fixin on doing some band recordings right directly to jazz up our promo packs.

 

So... if/when I'm successful to my own satisfaction that I've got a handle on it, and I can demonstrate desired results (which is looking pretty promising at this point), I'm fixin on having a weekend drum tuning session here at my shop involving myself and the 4 drummers and the 6 kits... and set-up a capable SR rig and the recording riggin... mic up drums and do a bunch of A-B comparisons between "tuned and unturned" drums, different mics, different mic placement, etc...

 

Sounds like a lot of work... and it has been so-far... but: The other day ago I received an RSVP invitation to my high school graduating class 40th reunion with a questionnaire to fill-out... including: Name, contact information, occupation (room for 2 or 3 words on the "occupation line" so I just put down "self employed"), spouse's name, spouse's occupation, number of children and their names, number of grandchildren and their names, (plenty of room on the questionnaire for filling in the kids and grandkids info... my "0's" there... well... they are what they are... can't do much of anything different about that now)... and then a big ole space (like 1/3 of a page) for "hobbies"... and... well... I guess technically I do have a couple of hobbies... but what's left of them are packed away in apple boxes and haven't see the light of day for a couple decades (sigh)... so I'm thinking "drum tuning".... by golly... there's a "hobby" that I likely can do and actually has a useful function and ties in with what it is that I do do...

[Craig Vecchione]

Mark, a receptive audience is certainly another can 'o corn. There's a pro drummer who had a quite extensive website/blog/something devoted to drum tuning, and as a non-drummer I tried his methods on the practice kit I had (before my ex wife sold it out from under me) with what I thought was good results...it went from sounding pretty awful to sounding pretty impressive. Now if only I could find the link or remember his name.

 

At any rate, your sampling of drummers have to get into the habit of tuning the kit every time they play. No different than our guitars and basses, as temperature, humidity, handling and playing always change tuning.

 

Once they get the kit sounding as they actually like, it's a much easier chore for you to put mics in a few spots to pick up what you want to reproduce in the sound rig. While there are infinite minor variations on the theme, a mic on the beater to emphasize "click", one inside, just outside, or right at the threshold of the hole (assuming existence of a hole) for the "boom", and take it from there...small changes, listen to what happens, adjust again, and listen. Of course, then there's the issue of your rig, the venue, the genre, and so on.

 

This could take a while.

 

BTW, what ever happened with your Sporty tank sender/petcock conversion issue? Feel free to PM, I'm still curious about that.

[Audiopile]

 

Mark, a receptive audience is certainly another can 'o corn. There's a pro drummer who had a quite extensive website/blog/something devoted to drum tuning, and as a non-drummer I tried his methods on the practice kit I had (before my ex wife sold it out from under me) with what I thought was good results...it went from sounding pretty awful to sounding pretty impressive. Now if only I could find the link or remember his name.

 

I'd definitely be interested in that. As I'm finding, much about tuning drums defies written explanations... it is a hands on science of art... and definitely is not a paint by numbers thing, but is rather a fairly complex matrix of broad understanding mixed with the devil being in the details, and extremely fine adjustments mixed with gross adjustments and everything in-between.

At any rate' date=' your sampling of drummers have to get into the habit of tuning the kit every time they play. No different than our guitars and basses, as temperature, humidity, handling and playing always change tuning.[/quote']

 

As I'm finding, tuning a kit can be fairly involved.... hours and hours (consuming days if you're not up on your chops)... but that might change if the kit is basically in the ballpark and just needs a quick once-over of fine tuning lugs... I dunno at this point... but I have developed an appreciation for how long it can take. Certainly knowing a target pitch for any one drum could seemingly take a lot of the trial and error fussing around out of the exercise.

Once they get the kit sounding as they actually like, it's a much easier chore for you to put mics in a few spots to pick up what you want to reproduce in the sound rig. While there are infinite minor variations on the theme, a mic on the beater to emphasize "click", one inside, just outside, or right at the threshold of the hole (assuming existence of a hole) for the "boom", and take it from there...small changes, listen to what happens, adjust again, and listen. Of course, then there's the issue of your rig, the venue, the genre, and so on.

 

Yup. In my past experiences, there were instances where it seemingly didn't matter how I mic-ed up the kit, it sounded great... but I could get it sounding even better with a little fussing with the mic type, placement, and knob tweeking... but that was the rare exception. In the preponderance of instances, the drums sound is awful, but with a lot of trashing about and going to extremes, I could generally get a sound that was not just terrible only louder (unless the resonator head of the kick drum was in the process of falling off... in that instance, it was "hopeless"... similar to split open and duct-tapped beater heads... that's pretty hopeless too).

 

BTW, what ever happened with your Sporty tank sender/petcock conversion issue? Feel free to PM, I'm still curious about that.

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. The replacement tank is still in a box, and the dented tank is still on the bike. I'll take that "nothing" back... I did look into the subject and figured out the conversion stuff is as-per the fuel pump still being in the tank, which is not the case with my replacement tank... and I haven't gotten up the ambition to... um... "buy" a fuel pump for the replacement tank, just to use the fuel pump for a "conversion fitting" receptacle... because my middle name is "frugal" ("cheap" is another term for that).

[Miko Man]

FWIW, I carry an electronic tuner (Korg) in my drum bag. Special situation, I realize, a marching bass drum in a bagpipe band, but it makes a difference. I have to wait to see what the pipes are tuned to (insert jokes here about tuning bagpipes), and then I tune accordingly. "A" is usually between 475 to 480 on any given day, and I tune the bass fundemental to Bb at the same frequency. Both heads are batter heads, and I play both sides, so chasing tuning is a bit tricky but I can usually do OK. I get compliments on the tone with the band..... Mark C.

[RoadRanger]

http://www.menet.umn.edu/~kgeisler/Tuning.pdf

[Unalaska]

This thread makes a lot more sense now that said the front head was really loose. The two issues I have when mic'ing a kick is the front head is too tight (more common esp with 20x18 kicks) or too loose. I still use the ev 868 for 90% of the kits and prefer the mic right in the resonant hole. If the front head is too loose I'll move the mic inside and center it more, even getting it close to the batter head. Admittedly I prefer a little darker sounding kick with less akg d112 whack to it. I like meat, a good R&B sound with solid low end. But that's me.

[Dogoth]

It's interesting that you keep going back to which pitch. Someone once said drums are the only instrument that can play in any key without re-tuning (I'm sure this means to a specific pitch). There are a few drums that are made specifically to be tuned to a pitch. Single head shelless drums like roto toms and tympani but for a drum kit tom tom, kick or snare you always have multiple pitches (top head, bottom head, shell resonances) AND each of these will have multiple resonant areas. It's not so much about finding a specific pitch (sometimes there is a predominant one but that's not all that important). It's mostly about tuning the top & bottom heads within the range of what the shell wants (the one thing you can't tune) and then making it sound musically pleasing rather than dissonant. There is really no specific "pitch" of a tom tom but rather a (hopefully) pleasing blend of harmonics. Think of it this way. Have you ever heard of a B flat cymbal? Since the answer is probably no (If you have, send me the link because I'd be interested :-). The reason is because they are such a complex combination of harmonics that it's hard to pick out one distinct pitch (the predominant one changes as the sound decays). This is basically true with drums as well (although to a lesser degree). I know I may be throwing a monkey wrench into your reasoning but drums must perform in every key (hopefully without sounding obnoxious :-).

 

I guess watching training videos is a good place to get ideas. You will find differing techniques (which can all be valid - you just end up with different sounding drums). Simply put. If it sounds good, it is good. Over the years I've developed what I think is a decent technique based on input from many different sources. It seems fairly fast (although you are correct that starting from scratch with new heads can sometimes take a while) and has reasonable results. I'm sure it's not the only valid way to do it. It just works for me (and most of the musicians I work with say my drums sound pretty good).

 

It is surely a learning experience. Have fun with it :-).

[twostone]

Since you got one them drum samplers just get a trigger and load you kick sample up in your drum sampler. So you can trigger the kick sample.

[Audiopile]

This thread makes a lot more sense now that said the front head was really loose. The two issues I have when mic'ing a kick is the front head is too tight (more common esp with 20x18 kicks) or too loose. I still use the ev 868 for 90% of the kits and prefer the mic right in the resonant hole. If the front head is too loose I'll move the mic inside and center it more' date=' even getting it close to the batter head. Admittedly I prefer a little darker sounding kick with less akg d112 whack to it. I like meat, a good R&B sound with solid low end. But that's me.[/quote']

Pete, and forumites:

 

Over my decades of enjoyment with my craft, I've had instances of "everything great"... including a great drummer playing great drums tuned to perfection, great gear, great production folks, and I was at the knobs (some dogs have lucky days which in my case was little of my doing other than being there). But the preponderance of experiences over the decades have been... well... "a job"... a pretty good job most of the time, but down the food chain a ways I saw a lot of commonalities that explained to me why it's down the food chain, and it's rarely a problem of "musicianship", but a whole host of other things that seem to be a self inflicted ball and chain of mediocrity that self defines *that* station in life... which seems to be a rut that can't be broken out of... and a rut is just a grave with the ends kicked out.

 

I've enjoyed a few instances of mediocre musicians playing mediocre instruments that came together as "stunning". I've always known the devil is in the details, and truly good rarely (basically never) happens just due to chance.

 

Messing around with this drum tuning thing after being shamed into it as an answer as to how I couldn't fix that which was fundamentally dysfunctional has been very enlightening... truly enlightening. Realization again that the sum is equal to the individual components (and zero times any amount is still zero).

 

I suspect few likely will ever be in my position to have the opportunity to address a seemingly nearly universal problem at it's core, but I'm thankful for my opportunity and endeavor to update with my seeming progress here. I'm extremely thankful for the supportive and capable talent I seem to be surrounded with and their open mindedness to taking cues and doing what it takes for pushing the envelope on improvement collectively and my seemingly position of catalyst for possible change for the better.

 

My current agenda/ thesis of my project is to create the best possible with a reasonable amount of addressing problems at the source with the basic tools for the job that most everybody has or should have if they're serious about putting out a marketable product to the customers and taking it to the next level. I'm happy to say that to my observation, the results seem to be no less than stunning with not all that much effort or expense.

[Unalaska]

It isn't always a gear issue but a people problem. As a sound tech we often don't see the push/pull between band mates as they chug their way thru each gig. All we get is the slice of time they're on our stage and we have to deal with who knows what and why. Decent kick mic, in the hole or way in the hole. Then comp or gate to taste.

[Audiopile]

 

Decent kick mic' date=' in the hole or way in the hole. Then comp or gate to taste.[/quote']

I see there's currently a thread on this forum concerning drum shields. If my fussing around with this drum tuning thing is anything... one thing my messing around suggests to me is if a band is considering augmenting their product with a drum shield, tuning the drums for mic-ing may preclude that need as the tone change delivered by intentional tuning with a sound "out front" goal in-mind may reduce the "aggressiveness" of hanging overtones with the drums sufficient to eliminate the perceived need for the drum shield. I find all of this difficult to put into words... best I can come up with is like changing out some instant freeze dried coffee for good quality coffee beans freshly ground and brewed properly... good coffee doesn't need to be killed with creamer and sugar (or shields, comps or gates), it's great straight-up. Similarly tuning of drums seems to offer the possibility to get rid of the nasty bitter acid leaving great attack and punch without the acidic ice-pick to the ear properties.

 

I dunno... getting deep into this is changing my whole way of looking at things.

[Scodiddly]

My general rule of thumb is that if I can't get it to sound good with about 30 seconds worth of knob-twiddling, I move the mic and try again.

 

Also I've gotten a lot less fussy about the kick sound since I started doing the sound check with things "in context" - get a quick check on each source and then get people playing together as fast as possible. Maybe the kick drum really is supposed to be a distant little thump with this particular band.

[Audiopile]

On to phase 3 with this avocation.

 

Phase one was "mic selection, mic placement and knob twisting"... realizing there are limitations to what can be done when limited to this selection of tools and skill-set.

 

Phase two was "drum tuning", which I've gotten "pretty deep into" over the past few months, and am happy to report that I'm satisfied I now have the ability to tune a set of mediocre (or worse) drums to sound "pretty good (or better than awful) to my ear" miced. I believe I'm approaching (or there) with pushing the envelope with the drum sets I have to work with, and am fixin on moving to phase 3:

 

Phase three: Source a set of good drums... with the ambition of getting a great drum sound miced and through a capable PA.

 

I'm coming here for advice on what make and model of drums offer a good opportunity of sounding great... miced and through a capable PA... and this is seemingly important relative to my aspirations, otherwise I wouldn't have posted this here. I've done some research, and it seems like the DW Collector's series/maple/mahogany is right up there on the top of the heap. I'm looking for what I suspect likely many or most soundfolks would prefer: "Good attack and punch, solid tuned fundamentals, minimal overtones beyond what it takes for rich tone, and fairly quick decay."

 

I'll be purchasing the drums... and I'm not a drummer.

[RoadRanger]

Heads are quite a bit more important than the shells. IME just about any shells can be made to sound just fine. Of course that assumes properly functioning hardware. There's a bunch of damping products available - the rings and moongel's are pretty useful...

[Unalaska]

Yamaha stage custom or better. Generic Evans g2 heads. Sabian or zildjian cymbals, even B8 pro is acceptable.

[dboomer]

I think we need to first ask whether the discussion is about micing the same kick night after night or are you asking about all comers? It also depends on what kind of music the drum is played in.

 

Here's the thing about micing almost any acoustic instrument. It's like asking 10 blind men to describe an elephant by touch. It depends where you put the mic.

 

Tuning the drum? Well in general you tune the drum for the sound you are after by listening ti it at a distance. That way the the size, the heads, the shell all come into play. Now if you stick a mic 2 inches from the drum you basically hear the sound at those 2 inches which probably isn't the same thing at all.

 

My approach (and I'm a drummer) is to capture some kick sound with a mic and then process the hell out of it until I get what I want. Using this method a great drum and a crap drum can end up the same. My preference would be to use the drum as a trigger and trigger a sample and not even screw with a mic. Microphones are the leading cause of bad sound after all.

[wesg]

I'm telling you, a digital mixer with top-notch drum sounds that can be triggered via microphones would be a sweet, sweet bandaid.

[Audiopile]

I think we need to first ask whether the discussion is about micing the same kick night after night or are you asking about all comers? It also depends on what kind of music the drum is played in.

 

As far as considering a new or different kit, it would be "the same kick" night after night... generally mic-ed, but a fair amount of the time the kick might not be mic-ed, or hasn't been in the past. Same goes for the rest of the kit, historically. Mic-ing or not might change in the future, "depending".

 

The kind or type of music has certainly changed since the drummer's existing kit was purchased. The drummer's existing kit is "mid '80's vintage"... and was likely in-vogue/suitable for what he was doing at the time, which was playing in a teenaged garage band doing hair-band and metal music of the era... Def Leppard, Iron Maiden, Whitesnake, Scorps, etc... The music/entertainment product we're doing now is an eclectic mix of dance music.

 

Here's the thing about micing almost any acoustic instrument. It's like asking 10 blind men to describe an elephant by touch. It depends where you put the mic.

Tuning the drum? Well in general you tune the drum for the sound you are after by listening ti it at a distance. That way the the size, the heads, the shell all come into play. Now if you stick a mic 2 inches from the drum you basically hear the sound at those 2 inches which probably isn't the same thing at all.

My approach (and I'm a drummer) is to capture some kick sound with a mic and then process the hell out of it until I get what I want. Using this method a great drum and a crap drum can end up the same. My preference would be to use the drum as a trigger and trigger a sample and not even screw with a mic. Microphones are the leading cause of bad sound after all.

Well understood all of your above.

[jlb]

This video clip is with a well tuned DW collectors 18x20" kick with a Evans Emad head and no internal muffling. Mic placed halfway in port hole.

[Dogoth]

Heads are quite a bit more important than the shells. IME just about any shells can be made to sound just fine. Of course that assumes properly functioning hardware. There's a bunch of damping products available - the rings and moongel's are pretty useful...

 

 

Ouch! I gotta disagree here (Read one of my lengthy earlier posts about the history of drums, shells etc...). Yes heads ARE important but shells, lug mounting, drum mounting devices & hoops all play a significant role in how a drum sounds. I have a 14" tom that sounds great when free floating (I need to get some legs for it) but sounds like Kaka when mounted on a stand (even with an isolated "rims mount" mounting system). Shell wood type, thickness, bearing edges & laminate construction are HUGE in how a drum resonates. A bad one will never sound great and a great one will never sound bad no matter what head you put on it.

 

Mark you're on the right track. DW makes great drums. Really many companies make great stuff if you're willing to buy their top of the line but for medium priced drums, my favorites (my opinion only) in order are - DW, Gretch, Yamaha. I own a Ludwig and a Mapex kit (also a Rogers dynasonic snare drum :-). I don't want to get anyone's panties in a bunch here. I've heard great Tama's, Pearl's, Premier's and a lot of companies that I don't even remember their names. This is purely personal opinion & subjective :-).

 

Maple drums will sound bright resonant with great attack. Birch drums will sound warmer. There are lots of types of wood as well as mixed laminates so really the possibilities are endless. There's also a lot of "boutique" drum makers that make great drums. FWIW a goodly percentage of N. American made drums use Keller shells and bolt on their own hardware. Rule of thumb, he harder the wood the brighter, higher resonances you'll get.

 

Good cymbals can easily cost as much as the rest of the kit Heavier cymbals will be brighter & louder (think LOUD R&R) Thinner cymbals tend to be darker & softer (think Jazz trio). They will also crack and/or wear faster with a hard hitter. Cymbals are like guitars, every one sounds different and it's an art to being able to pick a set without living with them for a while (I've gotten better at it over the years). My advice is to stick with medium to thin and don't cheap out (you might take along a drummer that you trust to help with this). It's really hard to buy cymbals mail order - you just have to hear them. There's a book simply called "The cymbal book" that (although dated back to the 80's) has some great guidelines for what to listen for.

 

Another .20 dollars worth (long post :-).