Sweatshop guitars

[gardo]

We've talked about his before but I really like the chart showing different view points.

Sure, they say clothes on the chart so substitute" guitars / gear"

 

[soundcreation]

Poster no doubt written by comfortable not socially active/aware western fence sitter who's trying to be "unbiased". Reason?

 

The "poor child". Even in a poster as simple as that the bias is showing that the "poor child/child's parent" WANTS those jobs and isn't really complaining. Of course people in 3rd world countries will take a job in a sweat shop rather than starve to death. That doesn't mean they enjoy the exploitation. Doesn't mean the don't want better working conditions and fair pay.

 

In order to see why sweatshop products are something that any person with a conscious would want to avoid as much as possible...it's necessary to look at the entire issue and how it's a system starting from "trade agreements" by bully western countries, that soften up third world countries by destroying their agriculture market, forcing mass amounts of labor into looking for work like that.

 

Of course...I'm sure at some point someone in this thread will post (they always do) the photo or video of the "nice clean Asian factory" that looks "as good" as a western factory as "proof" there is no exploitation going on....lol....

[gardo]

I like the idea that more then one view is presented indicating that the issue is not so clear.

Some say that in a global economy this is a temporary situation that will even it's self out over time.

The standard of living in the poor country will increase and the workers will earn more causing the costs in the rich country to increase lowering their standard and eventually there will be more of a balance.

[Elias Graves]

Hmm. I guess I have a sweatshop guitar. I made it, was paid nothing for my labor and my shop had no air conditioning.

[knotty]

Poster no doubt written by comfortable not socially active/aware western fence sitter who's trying to be "unbiased". Reason?

 

The "poor child". Even in a poster as simple as that the bias is showing that the "poor child/child's parent" WANTS those jobs and isn't really complaining. Of course people in 3rd world countries will take a job in a sweat shop rather than starve to death. That doesn't mean they enjoy the exploitation. Doesn't mean the don't want better working conditions and fair pay.

 

In order to see why sweatshop products are something that any person with a conscious would want to avoid as much as possible...it's necessary to look at the entire issue and how it's a system starting from "trade agreements" by bully western countries, that soften up third world countries by destroying their agriculture market, forcing mass amounts of labor into looking for work like that.

 

Of course...I'm sure at some point someone in this thread will post (they always do) the photo or video of the "nice clean Asian factory" that looks "as good" as a western factory as "proof" there is no exploitation going on....lol....

Exploitation, I agree. But its undeniable that that expoiltation is a lifeline to some of the workers though. So we need to modify it rather than just stop it.

In any global society there will always be people at the bottom who are exploited to some extent or another.

I would love to see a world wide minimum wage. Some sort of sticker scheme to show that manufacturers comply.

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

Poster no doubt written by comfortable not socially active/aware western fence sitter who's trying to be "unbiased". Reason?

 

The "poor child". Even in a poster as simple as that the bias is showing that the "poor child/child's parent" WANTS those jobs and isn't really complaining. Of course people in 3rd world countries will take a job in a sweat shop rather than starve to death. That doesn't mean they enjoy the exploitation. Doesn't mean the don't want better working conditions and fair pay

 

Good post, I've been in a few sweat shops in India, the people aren't held prisoner, for some they see it as their only way, and when all our Western goods were made in US factories, Uk factories German factories with the associated costs, lower paid western workers couldn't afford them, so thet bought HK, China, Korea, Malayasia, Idonesia etc.

 

Oh and check with the Gibson factory workers in the 50s, I'm sure you'll find some workers were barely paid to work 12-16 hours a day, ditto Britain and Europe

[soundcreation]

I like the idea that more then one view is presented indicating that the issue is not so clear.

Some say that in a global economy this is a temporary situation that will even it's self out over time.

The standard of living in the poor country will increase and the workers will earn more causing the costs in the rich country to increase lowering their standard and eventually there will be more of a balance.

 

Yeah but that's just what greedy corporations want. I mean...OK...if you're on the "side" of the share holder then yeah...you want working standards to fall in western countries so you can manufacture cheaper at home and thus maximize your returns. And that IS the effect of free trade agreements. But I'm gonna guess NONE of us on these boards are apart of that class of people. Even the wealthiest of us posting on HC are at best making a few extra dollars in the "market" and maybe letting that cloud their judgement about what's best for their long term future...in terms of generating income.

 

Companies hold a "gun" to the heads of western workers to erode all the gains our grandparents spilled blood in the streets for back in the 30's and 40's against virtually fascist police and company thugs. Nobody remembers that though.

 

"Don't want us to move our production to Mexico? Central America? Asia?...then you better shut the f.....k up and accept the conditions WE say"

 

What choice do we have then? It's no coincidence that the decline in working standards, safety, wages etc...in America (and other western countries for sure...but America most noticeably because of it's lack of a social safety net) occurred at the same time these trade agreements were put into place.

 

That's not the kind of "balance" I want to see. Where everyone is miserable and struggling just to make ends meet, because we've allowed the corporations to dictate to us the terms of our employment.

 

The idea that these corporations are "nobly" going into poor countries and "lifting them out of poverty with the wonder of the free market" is nothing but nonsense propaganda. They are there for cheap labor and maximum profits. Further, there is not a SINGLE example of that occurring anywhere in the world. Never. No where. It's a myth. If you look at the labor history of ANY country that has successfully created a "middle class"...it has come from people fighting corporations FOR those rights. From all the western countries right up to the most recent examples like Korea. Korea is often trumpeted as an example of that propaganda but Korea in the 80's was a place of MASSIVE worker rebellion. Tons and tons of labor violence that gained them a western standard of living.

 

And what did those "noble" western companies like Nike do when that happened? They pulled out and went to countries who had their populations under the boot heels...China..Indo, Vietnam, Central America.....you know....places where if you try to organize your buddies at work...you end up with your head chopped off in a ditch somewhere by company goons.

 

Knotty makes an excellent suggestion/point. That is what I'm in favor of as well...perhaps a little farther... That workers...wherever they live....be paid a LIVING wage, along with safe conditions, for their work in the place they live. A wage that allows them to support their family with a little left over for saving. In short what most normal people want.

 

Unless you're a saint...there is no avoiding sweatshop stuff...we all buy it ..but I personally try to minimize it as much as I possibly can. Cause minimizing it does make a difference over not paying attention to it at all and just buying whatever you want. Searching for those kinds of products can be work in and of itself....but I don't mind doing it.

 

 

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Its funny. When something is hand crafted here in the US its considered to be the finest work made, but when its hand made

in another country its considered to be slave labor.

 

What may be a sweat shop in one country is a full time job to others who would have no means to support themselves at all.

The US had sweat shops during their industrial period when people moved from the farms to the cities. The farming technology grew and made the horse and plow obsolete and those who couldn't modernize sold out or went bankrupt. Their families moved to cities and took factory jobs. Over time they too saw a better life and bought homes in suburbia.

 

I believe everyone wishes their life can be a utopia on earth and will sacrifice themselves so their family can have a small piece of it.

Our ancestors cared about their children enough to make our standard of living better. Will we do the same for our children?

Its took many generations of families seeking the same goals risking it all as an immigrant or working jobs they hated to get us where we are.

Some succeed and some didn't. Don't shame them by saying their efforts were evil. Instead celebrate the fact they made a good life for us.

At the moment, Other countries are attempting to match our success. Many are going through their industrial revolutions. The strong will succeed

and the weak will fail. That's always been the law of nature. Only their generations will know how far they came from being an agriculture society where

each family produced everything that family needs to a modern one where people specialize their work and get currency for the things they need.

Many tried methods that failed and had to start over. Others adopted the methods they could while preserving their traditions and had slow but steady growth.

Others societies could care less about work and only do what they have to in order to survive. Others had governments who intentionally kept their people ignorant and poor so they wouldn't be a threat to their power. All these things go on daily around the world.

 

I give the guy whose working in the factory a thumbs up for making something of himself, even if its no where's near ideal. He's the man who sets an example for

his children and wants them to do better than he did. Instead of a laborer, his child may become a designer or a factory owner by standing on his fathers shoulders.

That's how western societies were built, from the family up. Other countries are attempting to build their empires through other methods. None have achieved the same success for their children yet and only time will tell if they will be successful. Rome and Egypt were countries that had their sweat shops and people spent generation after generation with no hopes of elevating their status through hard work. Yes those empires fell just as easily as any empire today can fail. The difference is the countries today are economically connected on a world scale whether like it or not. Trade gives hope for people in poorer countries to move up through the class structures through hard work. The question is will their leaders let them grow or are they destined to a life of slave labor with a mission disguised as a method of building a new utopia.

 

[eflatminor]

 

Yeah but that's just what greedy corporations want. I mean...OK...if you're on the "side" of the share holder then yeah...you want working standards to fall in western countries so you can manufacture cheaper at home and thus maximize your returns.

 

It's really not "working standards" that bring about the economic reality making it more efficient to manufacture overseas and incur the costs of shipping those products right back to consumers here. No, it's things like the highest corporate tax rate in the world, the imposition of healthcare requirements on business, onerous environmental regulations that have nothing to do with preventing pollution, minimum wage laws that prevent the most vulnerable from working at all, perhaps most importantly, the relentless imposition of inflation from the Federal reserve that makes the cost of production and labor ridiculously and unnecessarily high in this country. I argue it's not the corporations that are greedy, but the central planners in government that force businesses, who are bound by fiscal responsibility to maximize shareholder wealth, to find alternative production outside our shores.

 

And that IS the effect of free trade agreements.

 

No, that is the effect of government meddling in US businesses. Further, we're far from the country that most embraces free trade. We're the only country that attempts to tax profits made overseas, which is why trillions of dollars sit in foreign bank accounts. In any case, I cannot advocate isolationism. If a man wants to trade with a foreign entity, he ought to have the right to do that. Besides, when people of differing countries trade, they tend not to war. A good thing.

 

Companies hold a "gun" to the heads of western workers to erode all the gains our grandparents spilled blood in the streets for back in the 30's and 40's against virtually fascist police and company thugs. Nobody remembers that though.

 

Can you cite a specific example of that "gun" companies hold?

 

What choice do we have then? It's no coincidence that the decline in working standards, safety, wages etc...in America (and other western countries for sure...but America most noticeably because of it's lack of a social safety net) occurred at the same time these trade agreements were put into place.

 

You'll have to back that up with specificity. Show us where "working standards" are declining in America. Prove that "safety" is worsening in American workplaces. In fact, there is overwhelming evidence that in the US, workplaces are getting safer. Further, wages are up over time, but have not kept pace with inflation, which, as I stated previously, is something imposed by government, not business.

 

Stated differently, I suggest you're directing your ire towards the wrong boogie man when it comes to the plight of the average worker in the US.

 

That's not the kind of "balance" I want to see. Where everyone is miserable and struggling just to make ends meet, because we've allowed the corporations to dictate to us the terms of our employment.

 

You have employment at will. If you don't like the terms offered by company A, take your labor elsewhere.

 

And let me say this: If you think American workers are all miserable and struggling, I'm gonna suggest you've never been to other countries where REAL poverty exists. I've lived in Africa, the Middle East, and I've seen it firsthand. Even the poorest Americans are considered rich by world standards.

 

The idea that these corporations are "nobly" going into poor countries and "lifting them out of poverty with the wonder of the free market" is nothing but nonsense propaganda.

 

And nobody is saying that. Corporations are seeking to maximize shareholder return, which they are required by law to do. Further, you fail to understand that US companies in foreign countries generally offer the highest wages and the best working conditions compared to their locally-owned competition for labor. There's a reason foreign workers line up to work for US manufacturing facilities based overseas. You cannot compare a wage earned in another country to a dollar her in the US. They have an entirely different marketplace for goods and services.

 

They are there for cheap labor and maximum profits. Further, there is not a SINGLE example of that occurring anywhere in the world. Never. No where. It's a myth. If you look at the labor history of ANY country that has successfully created a "middle class"...it has come from people fighting corporations FOR those rights. From all the western countries right up to the most recent examples like Korea. Korea is often trumpeted as an example of that propaganda but Korea in the 80's was a place of MASSIVE worker rebellion. Tons and tons of labor violence that gained them a western standard of living.

 

America had a thriving middle class BEFORE all this central planner intervention. Just sayin'. But sure, people should be free to fight for the best wages they can, the best working conditions. They should be free to organize. They should be free to work where they want for whom they want. No doubt. However, when central planners intervene and cause far more harm than good by forcing businesses overseas or to embrace technology that replaces workers, well that's not so good for the middle class, is it?

 

And what did those "noble" western companies like Nike do when that happened? They pulled out and went to countries who had their populations under the boot heels...China..Indo, Vietnam, Central America.....you know....places where if you try to organize your buddies at work...you end up with your head chopped off in a ditch somewhere by company goons.

 

Nike isn't an American company. We have no right to tell them where they can manufacture their goods.

 

Knotty makes an excellent suggestion/point. That is what I'm in favor of as well...perhaps a little farther... That workers...wherever they live....be paid a LIVING wage, along with safe conditions, for their work in the place they live. A wage that allows them to support their family with a little left over for saving. In short what most normal people want.

 

A world government, eh? Yea, pass. Let's stick to our country.

 

Your 'living wage' requirement ensures that our youngest citizens and those without the skills to warrant this minimum wage will not work at all. I find that incredibly cruel. Not everyone looking for a job is supporting a family. Some are young people looking to get experience and a few extra bucks while living with a parent. Some are elderly hoping to engage outside the home. Some are simply uneducated or unintelligent people whose skills do not warrant your wage. You're forcing them on the dole, which is cruel.

 

The point is, as you impose higher and higher minimum wages, you're only further incentivising businesses to look overseas for manufacturing or to invest in technology that will replace workers altogether. It also impedes economic growth. Once again, the best of intentions causing more harm than good.

 

Unless you're a saint...there is no avoiding sweatshop stuff...we all buy it ..but I personally try to minimize it as much as I possibly can. Cause minimizing it does make a difference over not paying attention to it at all and just buying whatever you want. Searching for those kinds of products can be work in and of itself....but I don't mind doing it

 

I too try to avoid products made overseas. Not because I think they're made in a "sweatshop" but because in my experience, these products are less reliable than their US made counterparts.

 

Bottom line, I suggest your outrage should not be directed towards businesses but to those that make it impossible to produce and create jobs right here in the US. If you're looking out for the middle class, attacking corporations with more and more regulations and restrictions is not going to help.

 

[soundcreation]

 

It's really not "working standards" that bring about the economic reality making it more efficient to manufacture overseas and incur the costs of shipping those products right back to consumers here. No, it's things like the highest corporate tax rate in the world, the imposition of healthcare requirements on business, onerous environmental regulations that have nothing to do with preventing pollution, minimum wage laws that prevent the most vulnerable from working at all, perhaps most importantly, the relentless imposition of inflation from the Federal reserve that makes the cost of production and labor ridiculously and unnecessarily high in this country. I argue it's not the corporations that are greedy, but the central planners in government that force businesses, who are bound by fiscal responsibility to maximize shareholder wealth, to find alternative production outside our shores.

 

 

 

No, that is the effect of government meddling in US businesses. Further, we're far from the country that most embraces free trade. We're the only country that attempts to tax profits made overseas, which is why trillions of dollars sit in foreign bank accounts. In any case, I cannot advocate isolationism. If a man wants to trade with a foreign entity, he ought to have the right to do that. Besides, when people of differing countries trade, they tend not to war. A good thing.

 

 

 

Can you cite a specific example of that "gun" companies hold?

 

 

 

You'll have to back that up with specificity. Show us where "working standards" are declining in America. Prove that "safety" is worsening in American workplaces. In fact, there is overwhelming evidence that in the US, workplaces are getting safer. Further, wages are up over time, but have not kept pace with inflation, which, as I stated previously, is something imposed by government, not business.

 

Stated differently, I suggest you're directing your ire towards the wrong boogie man when it comes to the plight of the average worker in the US.

 

 

 

You have employment at will. If you don't like the terms offered by company A, take your labor elsewhere.

 

And let me say this: If you think American workers are all miserable and struggling, I'm gonna suggest you've never been to other countries where REAL poverty exists. I've lived in Africa, the Middle East, and I've seen it firsthand. Even the poorest Americans are considered rich by world standards.

 

 

 

And nobody is saying that. Corporations are seeking to maximize shareholder return, which they are required by law to do. Further, you fail to understand that US companies in foreign countries generally offer the highest wages and the best working conditions compared to their locally-owned competition for labor. There's a reason foreign workers line up to work for US manufacturing facilities based overseas. You cannot compare a wage earned in another country to a dollar her in the US. They have an entirely different marketplace for goods and services.

 

 

 

America had a thriving middle class BEFORE all this central planner intervention. Just sayin'. But sure, people should be free to fight for the best wages they can, the best working conditions. They should be free to organize. They should be free to work where they want for whom they want. No doubt. However, when central planners intervene and cause far more harm than good by forcing businesses overseas or to embrace technology that replaces workers, well that's not so good for the middle class, is it?

 

 

 

Nike isn't an American company. We have no right to tell them where they can manufacture their goods.

 

 

 

A world government, eh? Yea, pass. Let's stick to our country.

 

Your 'living wage' requirement ensures that our youngest citizens and those without the skills to warrant this minimum wage will not work at all. I find that incredibly cruel. Not everyone looking for a job is supporting a family. Some are young people looking to get experience and a few extra bucks while living with a parent. Some are elderly hoping to engage outside the home. Some are simply uneducated or unintelligent people whose skills do not warrant your wage. You're forcing them on the dole, which is cruel.

 

The point is, as you impose higher and higher minimum wages, you're only further incentivising businesses to look overseas for manufacturing or to invest in technology that will replace workers altogether. It also impedes economic growth. Once again, the best of intentions causing more harm than good.

 

 

 

I too try to avoid products made overseas. Not because I think they're made in a "sweatshop" but because in my experience, these products are less reliable than their US made counterparts.

 

Bottom line, I suggest your outrage should not be directed towards businesses but to those that make it impossible to produce and create jobs right here in the US. If you're looking out for the middle class, attacking corporations with more and more regulations and restrictions is not going to help.

 

 

yeah...cause corporations are really struggling with taxes....lol....come on.....corporate taxes are a joke. Environmental regulations? Seriously? lol....come on. Health care is a direct worker benefit fought for that corporations don't want to pay even though they can afford it. That IS one of my points. Corporations have never been more profitable. It IS labor costs...it has nothing to do with "inflation" or other such nonsense. And yes....that's what corporations are "bound" to do...maximize profit...at EVERY expense....the easiest one to control is labor cost. The federal government are the ones making it EASIER for them to maximize their profits...not harder. There are NO restrictions on US corporations. That's why they've all been allowed to leave for overseas manufacturing. They most certainly are greedy. And their greed is a fundamental tenant of the corporate institution. Responsibility to maximize shareholder returns. That is greed. Every other concern..labor environment etc...comes second.

 

No you are not the only country that taxes foreign income. All countries do it. Trillions sit in overseas banks because corporations are too greedy to pay their fair share.

 

I did cite an example. Read the next sentence after that paragraph...in quotes.

 

Real wages haven't increased in forty years...

 

https://www.google.com.tw/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=zLpfU4-VCNTE9AWKzoCYCg#q=real+wage+decline+in+the+US&safe=off

 

That's on corporations and the private sector....not the government...no matter how much you try to blame them...

 

Workers are forced to increase production to the point of breaking while not receiving fair compensation.

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/06/speed-up-american-workers-long-hours

 

Again the threat of export of their jobs keeps people from doing anything about it. Erosion of gains. These kind of demands lead to increased work related injuries. Look at the meat packing industry....now one of the most dangerous jobs you could ever have...workers forced to meet quotas...long hours increase fatigue and chopped of fingers.

 

stated differently I think you are very easily convinced by corporate propaganda. You are a "believer" in the "system". I'm not surprised...it's been indoctrinated into you since your birth.

 

You'd be wrong. I've done volunteer work in Guatemala and traveled extensively throughout SE Asia. I've talked to workers so scared to meet with us we had to go through major hoops to meet. Because they knew that if the factory owners (who were contracted by American companies) found out...it could mean their lives. I suggest it's you who is very naive.

 

Your next paragraph is just complete nonsense.

 

And Nope....America had a thriving middle class after the "new deal" when the government FORCED corporations to give workers more because groups like the socialist workers party and even the communist party were becoming incredibly strong in america. It lasted up through the 60's until corporate whores like Kennedy and Nixon got into power and began dismantling the social gains won in the 30's and 40's. It's been going on ever since. Each president taking it a step further. Culminating in probably the greatest corporate whore president in history....Obama. I know....alien concept for you.....like I said....indoctrination works. You are a prime example.

 

The rest you are saying are just more excuses.....excuses that multi billion dollar companies "can't afford" these costs......lol.......it's completely laughable.

 

As someone once said.....the average US corporation thinks Americans are good enough to buy their products...but not good enough to make them. That about sums it up. Greed. Not "big bad government." Greed. Private greed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[eflatminor]

 

 

yeah...cause corporations are really struggling with taxes....lol....come on.....corporate taxes are a joke.

 

The highest in the world. That's a fact.

 

Environmental regulations? Seriously? lol....come on.

 

You'll have to do better than "come on". Take for example the golf club industry. Just one example, but a telling one. There remains NO golf clubs manufactured in America because of onerous regulations regarding the use of titanium. The regulators will not work with industry to prevent pollution, the force all manufacturing overseas where little to no regulations exist...thereby ensuring more pollutants get into the system, pollutants that don't stop at man made borders. Once gain, more harm than good while sending US jobs overseas.

 

Health care is a direct worker benefit fought for that corporations don't want to pay even though they can afford it. That IS one of my points.

 

That large corporations are forced to provide healthcare is one of the problems the costs jobs and makes it harder to maintain coverage when leaving a job. There is no reason companies should be involved in providing healthcare...or milk...or computers for that matter. What the company "can afford" is to base production elsewhere were no such requirements are imposed. There is no reason the healthcare insurance market should be tied to a job. None.

 

Corporations have never been more profitable. It IS labor costs...it has nothing to do with "inflation" or other such nonsense. And yes....that's what corporations are "bound" to do...maximize profit...at EVERY expense....the easiest one to control is labor cost.

 

The cost of living, the cost of materials, the cost of labor...in other words, the cost to produce in this country is most certainly a huge factor in determining where to set up manufacturing. The Fed, a government imposed entity, forces inflation (up 2300% since their formation). You can call it "nonsense", but if you want to be taken seriously, you'll have to provide countering evidence.

 

The federal government are the ones making it EASIER for them to maximize their profits...not harder. There are NO restrictions on US corporations. That's why they've all been allowed to leave for overseas manufacturing. They most certainly are greedy. And their greed is a fundamental tenant of the corporate institution. Responsibility to maximize shareholder returns. That is greed. Every other concern..labor environment etc...comes second.

 

"ALLOWED TO LEAVE"??? Did you really just state that? Wow. So you're saying government should be able to prevent people from travelling and doing business overseas? Prevent people from importing goods into this country? The USSR tried that approach. How'd that work out for them???

 

Further, if you compare restrictions on US businesses in the form of taxes and regulations to that of other countries, you'd see just how wrong you when you state there are "no" restrictions. If that were the case, why to would companies bother relocating manufacturing abroad? You logic is failing here.

 

But tell me, if you owned a business...any business, would you not attempt to make a profit? Would you not be subject to competition and seek to be more efficient in the name of making profit? How is that "greed"?

 

No you are not the only country that taxes foreign income. All countries do it. Trillions sit in overseas banks because corporations are too greedy to pay their fair share.

 

False. America is one of the very few country to tax foreign operations. You're simply wrong on that one.

 

I did cite an example. Read the next sentence after that paragraph...in quotes.

 

Real wages haven't increased in forty years...

 

https://www.google.com.tw/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=zLpfU4-VCNTE9AWKzoCYCg#q=real+wage+decline+in+the+US&safe=off

 

That's on corporations and the private sector....not the government...no matter how much you try to blame them...

 

Correct, real wages are flat. Now why is it that American companies are able to find the labor they need without having to pay increasingly more? Obviously, competition from other countries is at the root of that issue. That means we are doing something in this country that others are not.

 

Further, the only reason flat real wages are a problem is inflation, which is, once again, something imposed by the Federal Reserve, a government entity. Before the Fed, we have over 100 years of FLAT inflation. After the Fed, up 2300%. Again, you're blaming the wrong entities.

 

Workers are forced to increase production to the point of breaking while not receiving fair compensation.

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2011/06/speed-up-american-workers-long-hours

 

Again the threat of export of their jobs keeps people from doing anything about it. Erosion of gains. These kind of demands lead to increased work related injuries. Look at the meat packing industry....now one of the most dangerous jobs you could ever have...workers forced to meet quotas...long hours increase fatigue and chopped of fingers.

 

stated differently I think you are very easily convinced by corporate propaganda. You are a "believer" in the "system". I'm not surprised...it's been indoctrinated into you since your birth.

 

Mother Jones...really? Ok comrade. The meat industry is also safer than it was in the past. You have fallen victim to a typical logic fallacy: anecdotal. As I proved in my link, US businesses are getting safer over time, not less safe. The facts do you support your case.

 

Your faith in central planners demonstrates and ignorance of history. Read up my man!

 

You'd be wrong. I've done volunteer work in Guatemala and traveled extensively throughout SE Asia. I've talked to workers so scared to meet with us we had to go through major hoops to meet. Because they knew that if the factory owners (who were contracted by American companies) found out...it could mean their lives. I suggest it's you who is very naive.

 

Which has nothing to do with the fact that poverty is FAR FAR worse in other countries and that America's poor are considered rich by world standards.

 

Your next paragraph is just complete nonsense.

 

You can say that all you like but without evidence, logic and reason to back it up, you're not making a compelling case.

 

And Nope....America had a thriving middle class after the "new deal" when the government FORCED corporations to give workers more because groups like the socialist workers party and even the communist party were becoming incredibly strong in america. It lasted up through the 60's until corporate whores like Kennedy and Nixon got into power and began dismantling the social gains won in the 30's and 40's. It's been going on ever since. Each president taking it a step further. Culminating in probably the greatest corporate whore president in history....Obama. I know....alien concept for you.....like I said....indoctrination works. You are a prime example.

 

The rest you are saying are just more excuses.....excuses that multi billion dollar companies "can't afford" these costs......lol.......it's completely laughable.

 

As someone once said.....the average US corporation thinks Americans are good enough to buy their products...but not good enough to make them. That about sums it up. Greed. Not "big bad government." Greed. Private greed.

 

America had a thriving middle class BEFORE the new deal. See how that works? Freedom...free minds and free markets...produced the most prosperous country in the history of the world. Sorry, but neither you nor any central planner knows better.

 

[knotty]

 

A world government, eh? Yea, pass. Let's stick to our country.

 

And THAT is exactly the problem, right there

[eflatminor]

And THAT is exactly the problem, right there

 

Is that to say you advocate central planning of the entire world? Who gets to run that show?

[Chordite]

Here is an interesting article. The average global wage is £6000 or $10,000 dollars. So to all those "Social activists" on here are you (really!) ready to put your money where your mouth is and take the pay cut to 10K?

Or do you rather like your American lifestyle with the new cars every few years,big houses and huge grocery trollies rather than a few yams and a bit of chicken down the market?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17512040

[Grantus]

So how does one define a sweatshop? Is any guitar made in China or Indonesia a sweatshop guitar?

 

And why don't more people talk about sweatshop iPhones?

[knotty]

 

Is that to say you advocate central planning of the entire world? Who gets to run that show?

Its to say you should consider what your actions mean to other people. Not memememe.

[knotty]

Here is an interesting article. The average global wage is £6000 or $10,000 dollars. So to all those "Social activists" on here are you (really!) ready to put your money where your mouth is and take the pay cut to 10K?

Or do you rather like your American lifestyle with the new cars every few years,big houses and huge grocery trollies rather than a few yams and a bit of chicken down the market?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17512040

You dont have to put a firm number on it. A living wage is different in india the usa and monaco. It needs to be what is right for the particular environment. I know its not going to happen but we need to aim for something better. Isnt there a statistic something like 5% of the worlds population having 95% of the worlds wealth? ( a misquote but the correct figure is still staggering)

[gardo]

You dont have to put a firm number on it. A living wage is different in india the usa and monaco. It needs to be what is right for the particular environment. I know its not going to happen but we need to aim for something better. Isnt there a statistic something like 5% of the worlds population having 95% of the worlds wealth? ( a misquote but the correct figure is still staggering)

 

 

I can't say how accurate it is but this wealth calculator is something to think about.

 

http://www.leastof.org/worldwealthcalculator

[Chordite]

You dont have to put a firm number on it. A living wage is different in india the usa and monaco. It needs to be what is right for the particular environment. I know its not going to happen but we need to aim for something better. Isnt there a statistic something like 5% of the worlds population having 95% of the worlds wealth? ( a misquote but the correct figure is still staggering)

 

Exactly It's all well and good saying they only get £12 a week or whatever but it buys so much there than it would here.

For example http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...k-8069667.html

Agree the distribution of wealth globally and even within countries like the UK is a disgrace. Billionares and food banks in Fulham at the same time, and when I was young I thought by now society would be better, not worse

 

(This is electric sweatshop guitars we are talking right? I wouldn't want to drift on to off topic sweatshop acoustics )

[wankdeplank]

You'll have to do better than "come on". Take for example the golf club industry. Just one example, but a telling one. There remains NO golf clubs manufactured in America because of onerous regulations regarding the use of titanium. The regulators will not work with industry to prevent pollution, the force all manufacturing overseas where little to no regulations exist...thereby ensuring more pollutants get into the system, pollutants that don't stop at man made borders. Once gain, more harm than good while sending US jobs overseas.

 

That paragraph makes no sense whatsoever. So you are saying that it is the US government's fault that industries are polluting in places that have no environmental regulations??? WTF? And who says we need titanium golf clubs in the first place. And don't say the consumer, because the consumer has only as much say as the mass merchandisers within the purview of a passive regulatory body allow him to. Corporations have no allegiance to anybody, the big ones are multi-national after all. It is the new world order - we're all on the same page now, and covet the same status symbols, thx to the internet and satellite TV.

 

The problem as I see it is that the boundaries between Industry and State have been blurred to such an extent that there is no integrity other than loyalty to the almighty dollar. How is it that politicians can wear two hats without being called out on conflict of interest. Donald Rumsfeld, chairman of Searle at the same time that he was Secretary of Defense "called in his markers" to ensure that aspartame be approved even after it was banned by the FDA. http://www.rense.com/general67/rum.htm - stuff is a proven carcinogen folks. Or how about Dick Cheney, Haliburton CEO at the same time he was Vice President of these United States. http://readersupportednews.org/news-...on-on-iraq-war -it started with no bid contracts and ended with a name change and a permanent restructuring of the US Military (in bed with US contractors). Even the ones that have no apparent affiliations are making deals that effect us all, just to ensure their future financial portfolios. It was deregulation and the revocation of the Glass-Steagall Act that led to the greatest financial collapse since the great depression. But as with any zero sum game, where there's annihilation there are annihilators. Goldman Sachs came out smelling like a rose thanks to insiders Hank Paulson and Allan Greenspan.

 

According to Noam Chomsky, 99% of all terrorism can be attributed to this cozy little, but still semi-covert relationship between corporation and state. We in the North repudiate Mexico and it's government's submission to the drug cartels but it's the same game up here with the lobbys, the insiders and the hush money takers. "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - Thomas Jefferson

[soundcreation]

 

The highest in the world. That's a fact.

 

 

 

You'll have to do better than "come on". Take for example the golf club industry. Just one example, but a telling one. There remains NO golf clubs manufactured in America because of onerous regulations regarding the use of titanium. The regulators will not work with industry to prevent pollution, the force all manufacturing overseas where little to no regulations exist...thereby ensuring more pollutants get into the system, pollutants that don't stop at man made borders. Once gain, more harm than good while sending US jobs overseas.

 

 

 

That large corporations are forced to provide healthcare is one of the problems the costs jobs and makes it harder to maintain coverage when leaving a job. There is no reason companies should be involved in providing healthcare...or milk...or computers for that matter. What the company "can afford" is to base production elsewhere were no such requirements are imposed. There is no reason the healthcare insurance market should be tied to a job. None.

 

 

 

The cost of living, the cost of materials, the cost of labor...in other words, the cost to produce in this country is most certainly a huge factor in determining where to set up manufacturing. The Fed, a government imposed entity, forces inflation (up 2300% since their formation). You can call it "nonsense", but if you want to be taken seriously, you'll have to provide countering evidence.

 

 

 

"ALLOWED TO LEAVE"??? Did you really just state that? Wow. So you're saying government should be able to prevent people from travelling and doing business overseas? Prevent people from importing goods into this country? The USSR tried that approach. How'd that work out for them???

 

Further, if you compare restrictions on US businesses in the form of taxes and regulations to that of other countries, you'd see just how wrong you when you state there are "no" restrictions. If that were the case, why to would companies bother relocating manufacturing abroad? You logic is failing here.

 

But tell me, if you owned a business...any business, would you not attempt to make a profit? Would you not be subject to competition and seek to be more efficient in the name of making profit? How is that "greed"?

 

 

 

False. America is one of the very few country to tax foreign operations. You're simply wrong on that one.

 

 

 

Correct, real wages are flat. Now why is it that American companies are able to find the labor they need without having to pay increasingly more? Obviously, competition from other countries is at the root of that issue. That means we are doing something in this country that others are not.

 

Further, the only reason flat real wages are a problem is inflation, which is, once again, something imposed by the Federal Reserve, a government entity. Before the Fed, we have over 100 years of FLAT inflation. After the Fed, up 2300%. Again, you're blaming the wrong entities.

 

 

 

Mother Jones...really? Ok comrade. The meat industry is also safer than it was in the past. You have fallen victim to a typical logic fallacy: anecdotal. As I proved in my link, US businesses are getting safer over time, not less safe. The facts do you support your case.

 

Your faith in central planners demonstrates and ignorance of history. Read up my man!

 

 

 

Which has nothing to do with the fact that poverty is FAR FAR worse in other countries and that America's poor are considered rich by world standards.

 

 

 

You can say that all you like but without evidence, logic and reason to back it up, you're not making a compelling case.

 

 

 

America had a thriving middle class BEFORE the new deal. See how that works? Freedom...free minds and free markets...produced the most prosperous country in the history of the world. Sorry, but neither you nor any central planner knows better.

 

LOL....you're hilarious....

 

OK taxes.....let's go....

 

How about after loopholes? You free market fantasists always cherry pick arguments like this. Yes the nominal tax rate is above other countries (calling it "high" is a joke....it just shows ALL countries are pathetic about taxing their corporations) but WE ALL KNOW corporations DO NOT pay the nominal rate.

 

The REAL corporate tax rate in the US is around 12%.

 

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052970204662204577199492233215330?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052970204662204577199492233215330.html

 

So either you are completely naive or you actually know this but it doesn't serve your point so you ignore it and continue to believe your indoctrination. Wall street journal. Doesn't get more corporate whore than that. comrade.

 

LOL...yeah...corporations REALLY want to "work to protect the environment"....lol....wanderplank pretty much summed up how ridiculously flawed your logic is. And further....the EPA has been stocked with corporate whore appointments for decades. Rendering any real regulations toothless. The fact you think members of government, and appointments to agencies like the EPA, and the private sector are separate, just shows how completely brainwashed you are. Or...again...you actually know this but it doesn't support your argument, so you ignore it for the "laws on the books" as "proof" of your argument.

 

Corporations will have to do whatever the f...k people want them to do. If the public demands and forces employers to cover healthcare costs than that's what they'll do. If the public forced the government to force corporations to provide jobs to Americans or pay higher taxes if they don't...then that's what they'll have to do.

 

I know you think the "free market" is some "natural wonder".....like nature itself....but it's NOT. It's a game created by humans with rules created by the people who control the game. I know that goes against your indoctrination...but that's the reality. The market is what WE make it. And we can make it whatever we want. Or we can allow the Upper Class to make it what they want. And they do.

 

lol...yeah....of course inflation has gone up since the creation of the federal reserve in 1913....lol....how can you argue this garbage with a straight face? Implying as if inflation has gone up 2300% since 19 f...king 13 as the reason corporations had to move overseas....lol....seriously...you are ridiculous. How about showing me ONE major corporation that was NOT profitable BEFORE leaving the US for cheaper labor?

 

So now it's "one of the very few country to tax foreign operations"????

 

I thought you said......wait let me find it......."We're the only country that attempts to tax profits made overseas"....yep you did...you said ONLY. Now you are saying ONE OF THE VERY FEW. So...um....I'm not "false" and I'm not "simply wrong" about that.....lol....cause YOU said it yourself that there are other countries that do it. You don't seem to know what point YOU want to make let alone take on my point. lol.

 

​Corporations aren't people.

 

My logic is just fine. yours isn't. And of course I'd want to make profit...but I wouldn't do it at the expense of the people who work for me, or the environment. Yeah...in short...I'm not that greedy.

 

​Why are american corporations able to find the labor they need? That's the easiest one of all. And I've already answered it. But I'll say it AGAIN cause you don't seem to be able to handle the logic. The US government pursues a foreign policy that favors investment for it's corporations abroad. The tactics include bullying with unfavorable trade deals (aside from the elite of said countries who are willing to sell out their own country for a profit) to supporting dictators who implement policy to favor US/Western interests, all the way up to full scale invasion to bring "rogue" countries "in line"....or for someone indoctrinated like you....it's "bring peace stability and democracy" to said countries. And every possibility in between so long as US corporate interests are satisfied.

 

The fed is controlled by private sector bankers and their corporate whores.

 

See...the biggest part of your indoctrination that clouds what you see is the fact you seem to think there is some separation between the government and the private sector. What you are trying to tell me is that all these guys elected in Washington...you know...guys who were elected with massive massive massive corporate dollars behind them, not to mention past careers on the boards of major corporations, and who will return to make a killing in the corporate sector when they are done 'serving the public'...hahahahaha....(I can't even say it with a straight face).....these people who appoint their corporate friends to regulatory bodies that are supposed to police the very corporations they come from.....that THESE people are somehow setting up policies that are unfavorable to the corporations they were working for. That these people are making it MORE difficult for corporations......HAHAHA.......

 

Sorry dude. That's just absolutely ridiculous. The US government and US corporate sector are ONE IN THE SAME. And only people fed a lifetime of propaganda like you have been.....fall for the nonsensical arguments you've been making.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[soundcreation]

So how does one define a sweatshop? Is any guitar made in China or Indonesia a sweatshop guitar?

 

And why don't more people talk about sweatshop iPhones?

 

 

I'd say so...yeah. And it's pretty well know iphones are very sweatshop.

 

 

I would say a sweatshop is any work place where people are being exploited. Simple as that. And that can happen in western countries too. Don't fool yourself.

 

But a little investigating...and it really doesn't take much....will show you which countries are the worst offenders for treating their workers like garbage.

 

My personal view is that I will try not to buy from countries I know have a very bad reputation for the way workers are treated.

 

Now....in the guitar world.....say a company like epiphone for example, doesn't contract and has it's own chinese factory and they CLAIM workers are treated well...but the fact is that I can't know for sure...and given what goes on in the rest of the country's manufacturing sector...I'm not willing to take the chance.

 

Simple fact is a lot of times it's hard to find information. Employees in places like that are often very scared of retribution and employers keep those factories locked up tight away from prying eyes. That's why I never take "factory tour" videos seriously as any kind of example if a factory is "good" or not. They are meaningless. The managers are going to show you their best face, and employees won't say sh...t when their boss is right next to them.

 

The only way to know for sure is to interview employees outside of the facility anonymously and find out what the issues are. Nobody has really done that yet for MIC or MII guitar making. It's been done in Korea with Cort and that caused a total sh...t storm where Cort has abandoned it's own country to find cheaper more submissive labor in Indo or where ever it is... rather than treat it's own people with respect. In my opinion Cort is an absolutely disgusting company and I would never buy one of their products.

 

So it maybe true that epiphone is the RARE example of a company that is treating it's chinese workers well in ALL regards and the workforce is happy there....and that is great, if it's true....but again....cause I can't know for sure...and because abuse there is so common place...I won't give epiphone any of my money.

 

Now....it's true that MAYBE the japanese guitar companies I like to buy from are not treating their employees well...but I doubt it. I know what the minimum wage is in japan and I know that is a decent wage for the cost of living there. And I know that they have some of the best safety standards in the world. I have confidence that buying a MIJ guitar or an MIA guitar means I am supporting WAY less of an exploitative system than in countries like indo and china.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chordite]

Japan had the benefit of the Marshal Plan which turbocharged its post war economy. You can't compare the bootstrapping emerging economies with it.

South Korea has done well and is nearly up there now with Samsung, Hyundai etc' but their market will struggle against a west that can no longer afford the stuff it used to.

European banks have just been stress tested for a 35% house value fall, the proverbial is about to hit the fan and correct for a decade of artificially suppressed interest rates.

[DaveAronow]

Well, if you are so concerned with it, why dont you buy them an air conditioner? Then everyone will be happy. Problem solved. Always happy to help.

[gibsunLPgoldtop]

I love threads like this!

 

So many people care, so many people don't care..we are the world yadda yadda yadda.