CAKEWALK SONAR 5 PE (DAW software)

[doug osborne]

Originally posted by DrummerCT I am wondering about Sonar user's thoughts about Cakewalk's approach to pricing for upgrades. I have Sonar 4 Producer, owned for about 8-9 months (if memory serves me well), but didn't get around to installing it until ~May 2005 (this had to do with my attempts at putting it on Tablet PC -- another story...). ...

 

 

If you use it for a year, that's about fifty cents a day - about a dollar a day for you. Not bad objectively, but it's subjective.

[saturdaysaint]

Originally posted by DrummerCT Although I understand that more features have been added in version 5, I'm generally not a happy camper with the trend for some software companies, Cakewalk included, to do the "yearly" new product release, which translates almost into more of a subscription service model (without it being so stated). I can easily see the hand of the marketing folks in such company decisions and trying to ramp up top line revenue, among other aspects. Do other users simply pay and are glad? Or some other impact? I'm not sure whether I want to go to v5 or not. And please, I'm hoping for reasoned comments, not emotional outbursts (thanks).

 

 

One reason I'm pretty happy to pay for most Sonar upgrades is the fact that I'm never obligated to. If you're a patient user, you could sit out a few versions and go from, say, Sonar 2 to Sonar 5, paying barely more than the Sonar 4 to Sonar 5 upgrader. It's only an expensive subscription model for those of us that like staying on the latest version (and can't resist value-added extras like the reverb and Pentagon synth).

[wes37]

Craig,

Are you running Sonar 5 in 64-Bit or regular 32 Bit mode via the Bit-bridge? If 32, do you notice more CPU useage as before due to the doubled clock cycle processing requirement?

Thanks,
Wes

[Laptoppop]

Sonar 5 can run in 32-bit mode or 64-bit mode no matter what operating system you are using. BitBridge is used to let you run 32-bit plugins in a 64-bit operating system environment. Most modern CPUs have floating point built into them, so a 64-bit floating point operation takes the same amount of time as a 32-bit operation. You use up more memory with the 64-bit operation, but it is nothing like 2X the time to do it.

There is a change to how Sonar handles MIDI for 4.0.3 and 5.0. In order to avoid gapping, processing of some of the MIDI events has been moved to the audio threads, where the CPU meter is measuring. The actual amount of work being done has not changed, only the reporting of the work is more accurate.

There is apparently a bug in 4.0.3 that affects a very small number of people where the cpu usage has also gone up. Cakewalk has already announced they will be releasing a 4.0.4 fix. Supposedly the fix code is in 5.0 already, but there are some users who are complaining of increased CPU usage and it is not clear yet if they have a bug, or if it is just the expected reporting increase from the more accurate CPU reporting.

-lee-

[SSMickey]

Originally posted by Anderton Yes! Actually you've been able to do it since, if I recall correctly, Sonar 3.1.

 

 

Well, yes, quite. But that's not what I call a user friendly method, far from it, in fact. Way to simplistic for my liking.

 

Ah well....

[ustudio]

Hey Craig I dont know if you've found this out or if you have updated your stuff, dont have time to read it all, I just got my S5 busy with that now, but when I was reading earlier, you said about the vst support that all plugins go into vst sub folder, but you have the option not to do that, even in vst adapter you could say dont add vst prefix and it would work. But if you installed a new vst it would reset it self, so far in the new native support I can install and it wont do that , for instance all my vst plugin arent instaled with the vst prefix, and like for instance my blue tube are in a folder by itself, I have to rename them to start off with Blue Tubes but so far they are staying that way, dont know if that is permanent but so far so good. Yo Da Man!

[Alndln2]

Originally posted by AW - Cakewalk

Disabling PDC for any particular plug-in is easy:

for DX coming along??

[Anderton]

>

But I believe this relates only to VST plugs, right?

>

Hmmm. When I've visited the Sonar forum, I've often seen comments from Cakewalkers. Ron Kuper seems particularly conscientious about dealing with some of the tougher questions.



I'm running in 32-bit mode, but it does seem there's more of a hit on the CPU in this version. Could that be due to the 64-bit audio path? Or about the MIDI issue that was mentioned? Alex, any comments on this?

[Alndln2]

One thing not brought up here,it appears that many early users of S5 are apparently noticing a very big improvement in the audio engine in both 32 and 64 bit versions as reported in this thread http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=603446

[Anderton]

Think that the MIDI portion of various programs has been kind of ignored, what with all the attention to digital audio? Sonar 5 boasts a significantly revamped approach to MIDI, and yeah, I’m really liking it…although it took a little bit to wrap my head around the changes. As far as I’m concerned, if you work a lot with MIDI, the improved MIDI features alone justify the upgrade. They’re that good.

We’ll start with the MIDI Scale/Zoom control. Because of all the MIDI changes, and because the forum software allows only one picture file per post, the MIDI section of this review will be broken up among several shorter posts.

Scale/zoom provides a much more detailed view of MIDI data within a track; most of the time, you’ll no longer have to open up the Piano Roll View just to see what’s going on. And you might not want to open it up anyway, as we’ll see in the next post…and if you do open it up, you’ll find that it’s been enhanced as well.

First off, what’s so important about not having to open up the piano roll view? Simple: You can see MIDI data in context with the other MIDI and audio tracks. Furthermore, controller data is now shown along with note data. Granted, all controller data is shown simultaneously – this feature is more for giving the big picture, as you can’t edit when you’re just looking at Clips in the Clips pane. But Sonar 5 also includes new MIDI editing provisions, which we’ll cover in the next post.

The key to using this feature is the “piano keyboard” scale control toward the left, between the track info and the clip. Click and drag up or down on the keyboard to zoom in or out (in other words, make the MIDI notes taller or shorter), right-click and drag up or down to shift the visible part of the keyboard. Click on the Attachment to see various MIDI tracks zoomed in by various amounts. You’ll note in the picture that the top track is zoomed in quite a bit, the middle track less so, and the bottom track the least of all.

You can also zoom by changing the track’s height, but obviously, it’s extremely convenient to retain a track’s height and still be able to zoom in and out. Because controller data doesn’t relate to pitch, it doesn’t change when you use the Zoom/Scale option, but does stretch if you change the track height.

And there’s more:

 Right-click on the keyboard, and you have control over layers if the Track Layers button is on (show, rebuild, compact, insert, delete, and select layers).
 There’s an option to “Fit Content,” which scales all MIDI data in the track so it fits the allotted space. This can apply to selected tracks, a single track, or all tracks…your choice.
 Shift-click on the keyboard, and you’ll audition the associated note.
 Shift-click-drag on the keyboard, and you’ll audition all the selected notes over which you dragged.

As a final touch, you can change the scale from showing a keyboard (“Notes”) mode to showing numeric note values (“7 Bit Values”) mode.

I really like this…but there’s more to the MIDI enhancements.

[Anderton]

There was just a lightning storm, and as I have a UPS, I did a nice orderly shutdown. But when I turned the computer on again, it POSTs, beeps, checks the floppy disk, but then Windows doesn't start - I get the "flashing cursor in upper left hand corner" and that's it.

Bummer. Well, I'll add to the review when the computer's working again. At least if it all goes to hell and I need to re-install Sonar, I'll be thanking them every second for having such a dead simple installation procedure.

Oh, and if anyone has any advice other than re-installing Windows...

[Rabid]

Originally posted by DrummerCT I am wondering about Sonar user's thoughts about Cakewalk's approach to pricing for upgrades. ...

My thoughts are "buy only the upgrades you need." I have used Cakewalk since version 1 and usually update every other release. So far I have Cakewalk 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, Sonar 1, 2, 3 and now 5. I skipped 4 because the metranome was the only thing I really needed, and a collection of Acid loops works just as well. Actually, I bought Sonar 4 when they offered the free upgrade to Sonar 5. Hopefully it will arive soon. No word yet on shipping.

I also do this with other program such as Acid and SoundForge.

Robert

[Rabid]

Any comments on how the built in VSTi support of Sonar 5 affects the wrapper in Project5? While using the wrapper with Project5 will I see multiple instances of VSTi's within Sonar 5? Is there a plan to update Project5 with native VSTi support?

Robert

[SSMickey]

Originally posted by Anderton Oh, and if anyone has any advice other than re-installing Windows...

 

 

'Recovery Console' is always worth a shot

 

http://tinyurl.com/4shf

 

It could just be your MBR that needs repaired.

 

Or just reload your last saved Image...

[tecknot]

Originally posted by Anderton > I'm running in 32-bit mode, but it does seem there's more of a hit on the CPU in this version. Could that be due to the 64-bit audio path? Or about the MIDI issue that was mentioned? Alex, any comments on this?

 

Craig, looks like CW is aware of the CPU metering in S5 and willl address the issue in a patch (see Noel's and Ron's posts in CW SONAR forum below). It's a little dissapointing to see the final product has this slight flaw. Not major but wish it was caught before it shipped.

 

At least we know it's not a real problem.

 

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=603453&mpage=2&key=

 

 

Hello, No need to panic :-) There was a change made to the actual CPU meter very close to when we shipped SONAR 5 that caused higher CPU readout on the meter. We have since then revised the logic used for the meter since it turned out that the change was causing higher readings than SONAR was actually consuming. The first point update to SONAR 5 will correct this. Thanks for your understanding. Noel _____________________________ Noel Borthwick Cakewalk

 

 

Hi folks, Just to second what Noel said --we've investigated the CPU loading issue. Good news and bad news. Good news is, SONAR 5 doesn't actually consume more CPU than 4. Bad news is, a late change in the SONAR 5 code introduced a bug in how the CPU meters were being computed. In other words, the engine isn't less efficient -- the meters themselves are displaying the wrong value.

 

 

Thanks for the indepth reports!

 

 

tecknot

[vksf01]

craig,

are you using a single or multiprocessor machine? i'm running a dual opteron with sonar 5 and if the "enable multiprocessor engine" is checked, sonar's cpu maxes out and grinds to a hault whenever i insert any softsynth. has this happened to you?

vincent
http://www.vksf.net

[AW - Cakewalk]

Originally posted by Anderton > But I believe this relates only to VST plugs, right?

 

Yep, you're right!

 

 

> I'm running in 32-bit mode, but it does seem there's more of a hit on the CPU in this version. Could that be due to the 64-bit audio path? Or about the MIDI issue that was mentioned? Alex, any comments on this?

 

It's actually because of a last-minute code change that made the CPU meter reading inaccurate. We'll address this in the next possible maintenance release.

[bdub]

Alex or anyone -- how does BitBridge work exactly? I have an AMD 64/3200 but am running 32 bit Windoze XP. If I get the x64 edition and install Sonar, how do I get my old plugs to work (and I have dozens of them: all Spectrasonics, most Native Instruments, Sample Tank, Sonik Synth, Wavearts, Arturia's stuff, etc). They're 32-bit apps. Do they work in Win XP x64 in some compatibility mode and then magically talk to Sonar via BitBridge?

Thanks,
Bill

[AW - Cakewalk]

Originally posted by bdub Alex or anyone -- how does BitBridge work exactly? I have an AMD 64/3200 but am running 32 bit Windoze XP. If I get the x64 edition and install Sonar, how do I get my old plugs to work (and I have dozens of them: all Spectrasonics, most Native Instruments, Sample Tank, Sonik Synth, Wavearts, Arturia's stuff, etc). They're 32-bit apps. Do they work in Win XP x64 in some compatibility mode and then magically talk to Sonar via BitBridge? Thanks, Bill

"Do they work in Win XP x64 in some compatibility mode and then magically talk to Sonar via BitBridge?"

Yes.

[bdub]

Originally posted by AW - Cakewalk "Do they work in Win XP x64 in some compatibility mode and then magically talk to Sonar via BitBridge?" Yes.

Thanks! So, people at Cakewalk are actually running true 64-bit systems (CPU and OS) with these plugins? That's promising.

I think there is a bit of mystery surrounding this whole 64-bit business. I have a Delta-66 soundcard so there are 64-bit drivers available for me. I'd lose the use of my Steinberg Unitor-8, but then again I have a few other MIDI interfaces that I could limp by with for now. My biggest concern was the ability to use existing software on the 64-bit OS.

Bill

[Laptoppop]

But be careful you have the VST versions. BitBridge doesn't work with DX or DXi plugins, only VST.

-lee-

[bdub]

Originally posted by Laptoppop But be careful you have the VST versions. BitBridge doesn't work with DX or DXi plugins, only VST. -lee-

 

 

Thanks Lee...I remember reading that somewhere. I tend to use the VST versions of everything when possible anyway so that shouldn't matter (although I do have some DXi stuff that will be rendered useless -- well, it's all for the sake of progress!).

[freddie_tane]

Oh No! Our fearless guide into the brave
new world of S5 has had a PC meltdown -
we must send bits and bytes of recovery voodoo to him and hope that he'll regain
web-ability soon ...

01010011010100100100101001001

- ft

[techristian]

I must have been hiding under a rock for some time. The only REX that I ever heard about was on the Amiga 20 years ago. I think it had something to do with piping output from one application into the input of another. Am I warm Craig or ALL WET???

Another question... I'm also using UNITY by BITHEADZ . Will all of my sounds from that software work w S5? (It is amazing how a year away from recording has caused me to grasp for the right technical terms. I'm trying to remember the type of software interface that works with bitheadz. I know that Unity DS-1 should work as a plugin but there was also another interface with it)

Am I correct in stating that your review is for the MORE EXPENSIVE of 2 versions of S5 ??

One is a $99 upgrade for me and the other is almost $300 for the upgrade. OOPS but I'm already too late for the upgrade deal !

Dan

[Anderton]

Okay, I’m back after a bout with hardware problems…ugh. As far as I can tell, a failing motherboard disk controller corrupted the boot drive and I had to reinstall Windows, which means I had to re-install Sonar. Hopefully the system will limp along until the replacement mobo arrives in a couple days.

Anyway, when you click on a track’s PRV button, you can not only see the MIDI data in the track (with the zoom, fit content, scale, and other options mentioned above), but can actually edit the notes. This isn’t a new concept; Steinberg included in-place editing in Cubase SX. But it is indeed convenient because, again, you can see the MIDI data in context with audio tracks and other MIDI data tracks…even more so, because you can see the soft synth audio in its track along with the MIDI data driving it.

There are three drop-down menus for a MIDI track in PRV mode. Click on the attachment to see the three drop-down menu locations; the show/hide data menu is currently visible. The PRV button is circled in yellow. One menu chooses the note value that will be written when you use the pencil tool, another the type of data (note, velocity, controller), and a third shows/hides various data so you don’t have to be overwhelmed if there’s a lot of data in a track.

Incidentally, the PRV view has its own toolbar. But note that the Scrub control still affects only audio tracks in the Clips pane; you need to use the piano roll if you want to scrub MIDI notes.