Natural talent vs 10,000 hours

[Virgman]

Of course there is natural talent.

 

Most of us just don't have any.

[Cazual]

Perhaps we could just all agree that some of us have a natural talent for disagreeing, but that some of us have been working at it... ?

[Cazual]

Of course there is natural talent. Most of us just don't have any.

Why spoil a perfectly good argument by dragging the truth in???

[John H. Power]

I ran hurdles at the University of Florida(1969-1973). I worked really really hard, set school records, won many races etc. etc. But when I got to the really high level stuff (NCAA finals, Olympic trial 1972, etc.) I had no chance. Good enough to qualify but that was it. Why? The top dogs had more natural talent than me. They were faster because they were born with speed and just refined it with proper coaching. No matter how hard I worked I could not get to their level, which in my event was only a difference of about .7 of a second.

 

The cream of the crop are a combo of "born in ya" talent and hard work. There is no way around it. Its life.

[paulojcduarte]

I ran hurdles at the University of Florida(1969-1973). I worked really really hard, set school records, won many races etc. etc. But when I got to the really high level stuff (NCAA finals, Olympic trial 1972, etc.) I had no chance. Good enough to qualify but that was it. Why? The top dogs had more natural talent than me. They were faster because they were born with speed and just refined it with proper coaching. No matter how hard I worked I could not get to their level, which in my event was only a difference of about .7 of a second. The cream of the crop are a combo of "born in ya" talent and hard work. There is no way around it. Its life.

 

 

 

This is where we disagree, generally speaking speed has to do with white fibers, and resistance with red ones. Negroes are prone to be born with a large percentage of white ones over the red ones. (explaining in a simplistic way)

 

White fibers will give one person the ability to achieve better results in strength and speed activities. I just don't call that talent.

 

 

 

Anyway, I think we're talking about the same thing, but disagreeing on the name to call it.

[1001gear]

Lemme know when you get to quantum mechanics.

[Knottyhed]

Lemme know when you get to quantum mechanics.

 

 

I love it when these discussions turn all 'sciencey'.

 

Science aside. How can having physical attributes that mean you can run fast not make you a talented runner?!!? I'm sorry, but arguing over the meaning of a word is stupid when 99.9% of the English speaking world use and understand the word in precisely the context that some folk seem to think is incorrect.

[John H. Power]

This is where we disagree, generally speaking speed has to do with white fibers, and resistance with red ones. Negroes are prone to be born with a large percentage of white ones over the red ones. (explaining in a simplistic way) White fibers will give one person the ability to achieve better results in strength and speed activities. I just don't call that talent. Anyway, I think we're talking about the same thing, but disagreeing on the name to call it.

 

 

Take it to a white dominated event e.g. the pole vault. The same holds true. The guys with the natural talent who work hard are are the best.

 

And isn't guitar athletic in way?

[paulojcduarte]

I love it when these discussions turn all 'sciencey'. Science aside. How can having physical attributes that mean you can run fast not make you a talented runner?!!? I'm sorry, but arguing over the meaning of a word is stupid when 99.9% of the English speaking world use and understand the word in precisely the context that some folk seem to think is incorrect.

 

 

 

I might be making a mistake here, and I'm having a discussion in english when I speak portuguese, so there could be differences. A talented runner, or guitar player exists, but we were arguing natural talent, and my point was some kinds are born with a set of physical and cognitive abilities that will give him a chance to excel in the activities that require those abilities.

 

They can grow to be talented, but talent isn't a preexisting condition.

[Virgman]

Lemme know when you get to quantum mechanics.

 

 

Tru dat.

 

Some people are blessed with ability in higher mathematics.

 

Absolutely.

[jeremy_green]

I might be making a mistake here, and I'm having a discussion in english when I speak portuguese, so there could be differences. A talented runner, or guitar player exists, but we were arguing natural talent, and my point was some kinds are born with a set of physical and cognitive abilities that will give him a chance to excel in the activities that require those abilities. They can grow to be talented, but talent isn't a preexisting condition.

 

 

No I dont think you are making a mistake - sounds like we are in agreement basically. We are dealing with semantics of word definitions at this point.

 

Cheers!

[Knottyhed]

a set of physical and cognitive abilities that will give him a chance to excel

 

 

Is precisely what having natural talent means. If I was to say, "he's a naturally talented guitarist" it would be understood to mean "he has inborn abilities that enable him to excel at guitar". Nobody would think I was suggesting that person came out of the womb and just started playing guitar at a high level - because that would be absurd!

[girevik]

Right - I think that one of the major drivers for the "Natural Talent Doesn't Exist" crowd is people trying to counter lazy bums saying "I have no talent so I can't do it".

 

 

Certainly, there is an element of that going on.

 

But then those who have been practicing for many hours without their expected results then pipe up with their own complaints - "I practiced a {censored}load of hours and I still can't play Flight Of The Bumblebee at 264 bpm" or whatever. They come to the conclusion: "I cannot do it despite all my practice because I have no talent".

 

I would say, "Not so fast! Take an honest look at your practice method and try lowering your expectations a bit." If your practice your basketball jump shot for 10,000 hours, it won't make you a better golfer. If you cannot run as fast as Usain Bolt, then re-examine that particular goal.

[jeremy_green]

Ha! Nice, this is fun. Here's my analogy:

 

There are two people,

each of them have decided to build a house.

One is given bricks, mortar, wood shingles etc

The other is given mud, sticks, leaves etc

 

Both can build a house with the effort,

 

BUT the guy with the mud and sticks needs to apply more creativity to make his work as well. With enough effort and thought he may in fact be able to build something ultimately more stylish. He may use those raw materials and blend them together to make new and different substrates that may be different yet equal to the other guys - it just wont be as easy to build, will likely take longer and will require more ingenuity. This guy may possibly be more proud of all his efforts in the end as he had to give himself totally to it to make it happen.

 

Then along comes a hurricane : ) Ha! Maybe not such a great analogy after all!

[3shiftgtr]

O.k.,
I'm not a man of extreme absolutes. Life has a lot of nooks and crannies, ya know? But I'm gonna jump off the boat here....

If anyone out there thinks they know for a fact that there is no "natural talent" in music because of sports science, they are A COMPLETE FOOKIN' IDJIT!

First, sports and physical aptitude go hand in hand. Music is different. Um, DUH.

Musical natural talent on the prodigy level, comes directly from the brain's ability to organize sound in a prefunctory fashion that predicates an academic understanding that is known before it is learned, taught, experienced or observed.

I personally have seen a child of 5, from a family and environment without ANY musicians, look at a sheet of simple music, understand it and play it. Without any training. She had the innate ability to look at a sheet of music and understand where the notes are on the piano. Timing, everything.

The child is now 14 and studying in Japan at a special school for piano prodigies. Obviously, she is not the only one. THERE WAS NO ENVIRONMENT TO LEARN FROM. NONE WHATSOEVER.

Natural talent is real when it comes to music.

[Virgman]

Natural talent is real when it comes to music.

 

Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do!!!

 

[Loop-Master]

Wow

[paulojcduarte]

I personally have seen a child of 5, from a family and environment without ANY musicians, look at a sheet of simple music, understand it and play it. Without any training. She had the innate ability to look at a sheet of music and understand where the notes are on the piano. Timing, everything. The child is now 14 and studying in Japan at a special school for piano prodigies. Obviously, she is not the only one. THERE WAS NO ENVIRONMENT TO LEARN FROM. NONE WHATSOEVER.

 

 

 

I call BS, she must have learned it somewhere without people noticing, maybe on the baby channel.

 

 

In sports and in music you can't separate the cognitive abilities from the physical ones, you have to look at a person as a whole and the brain controls everything.

[paulojcduarte]

Certainly, there is an element of that going on. But then those who have been practicing for many hours without their expected results then pipe up with their own complaints - "I practiced a {censored}load of hours and I still can't play Flight Of The Bumblebee at 264 bpm" or whatever. They come to the conclusion: "I cannot do it despite all my practice because I have no talent". I would say, "Not so fast! Take an honest look at your practice method and try lowering your expectations a bit." If your practice your basketball jump shot for 10,000 hours, it won't make you a better golfer. If you cannot run as fast as Usain Bolt, then re-examine that particular goal.

 

 

Usain Bolt is a greyhound in disguise. That is a guy who was born with the qualities to be a "one in a lifetime" runner.

 

His coach says he has so much more to give, when he fixes that start I can't even imagine where that record will go.

[1001gear]

Mozart?

[mikey4402]

I give you that some people are born with a higher capacity for the development of certain skills. But the child has to fully develop them through observation during its early years, to have any kind of average over a average person of the same age.

 

The ability to combined these skills to make a certain task easier is the definition of talent in my mind.

 

Relating to sports... just because a guy is tall doesn't mean hes talented at basketball. Someone can become talented at the sport if he learns to use all of his skills (speed, height, strength...) to an advantage.

 

I cannot believe in natural talent. Unless someone can show me an example of a child born in isolation, with no form of organized music present, who can...

read and write music.

or

Play a piece on an foreign instrument.

 

 

O.k., I'm not a man of extreme absolutes. Life has a lot of nooks and crannies, ya know? But I'm gonna jump off the boat here.... If anyone out there thinks they know for a fact that there is no "natural talent" in music because of sports science, they are A COMPLETE FOOKIN' IDJIT! First, sports and physical aptitude go hand in hand. Music is different. Um, DUH. Musical natural talent on the prodigy level, comes directly from the brain's ability to organize sound in a prefunctory fashion that predicates an academic understanding that is known before it is learned, taught, experienced or observed. I personally have seen a child of 5, from a family and environment without ANY musicians, look at a sheet of simple music, understand it and play it. Without any training. She had the innate ability to look at a sheet of music and understand where the notes are on the piano. Timing, everything. The child is now 14 and studying in Japan at a special school for piano prodigies. Obviously, she is not the only one. THERE WAS NO ENVIRONMENT TO LEARN FROM. NONE WHATSOEVER. Natural talent is real when it comes to music.

 

 

Thats BS.

 

I know a baby that was born in a room, separated from all outside communication. When he reached the age of 15 i gave him a newspaper and he begin to read the city bloater back to me.

 

Would you believe that? Oh course not. The child had to of learned the 'musical' language somewhere. Even if it was just 'here is middle C on the staff here is middle C on the piano. Each one of these lines is a different key on the piano.'

 

But people don't just wake up one day and know how to speak or read a different language, music is no different

[jeremy_green]

Let me say it again.

 

When someone says you have natural talent 99.9% of the time they mean that you learned it easier than some. You were born with the right genetic stew to make learning this instrument seemingly easier.

They dont mean that you came out of the womb playing guitar.

 

This topic always becomes a discussion of the English language. Some people take the words WAAAAYYY to literally.

 

If I said "That guy is an asshole" would you think I meant he is an actual large fleshy sphincter walking around with legs? OR That he isnt a nice person?

 

This is how us humans talk

 

Sayin?

[Virgman]

Let me say it again. When someone says you have natural talent 99.9% of the time they mean that you learned it easier than some. You were born with the right genetic stew to make learning this instrument seemingly easier. They dont mean that you came out of the womb playing guitar. This topic always becomes a discussion of the English language. Some people take the words WAAAAYYY to literally. If I said "That guy is an asshole" would you think I meant he is an actual large fleshy sphincter walking around with legs? OR That he isnt a nice person? This is how us humans talk Sayin?

 

Absolutely. [/url]

[Virgman]

Some people are just born with the aforementioned qualities; but it's not like it can't be developed later in life by someone who wasn't born with it. If he/she is willing to put in the effort and rectify their method of approaching their instrument, then I'm sure that they would see improvements in their playing at a pace close to those who were born with the qualities.

 

 

Everyone can develop their skills to the limit of their natural ability.

 

However, with same work and effort the naturally gifted person will go by the non-gifted one like he is standing still.

[mikey4402]

When i was in middle school i played the trombone. I wasn't amazing or even all that good. I quit before high school.

It age 18 i picked up the guitar wasn't too great at it. I did'nt play it all that much. When i was 21 or 22 i started to become more interested in music as a whole. I would spend hours and hours just listening to albums over and over and over. Around this time i bought a old keyboard and started read music and learn to play it. I then got back into playing the guitar. Soon after that i picked up a bass. Next i started playing the harmonica. Drums were next. And lately i been playing the sax. I even found my old trombone in my parents closet got it out and was playing it better then i ever could before.

With every instrument that i picked up the learning curve became smaller. Some might say i developed a talent over the years other might say i always had the talent. If i always possessed this musical ability then why didn't i excel at a younger age.

We could continue to give example of natural talent vs acquired talent but its pointless because how can you prove when the skills developed.

We are forgetting the most important element for success and that is motivation. I believe i failed at my first and secound try at music because my motivation wasn't there i was more concerned about sports or comic books or women. Now the motivation is here and all i do is breath music.

These kid super stars with all the talent in the world will also fail unless the stay motivated.