Natural talent vs 10,000 hours

[girevik]

I have no problem with the existence of "natural talent".

As long as it is not used as an excuse to give up music.

[Virgman]

When i was in middle school i played the trombone. I wasn't amazing or even all that good. I quit before high school. It age 18 i picked up the guitar wasn't too great at it. I did'nt play it all that much. When i was 21 or 22 i started to become more interested in music as a whole. I would spend hours and hours just listening to albums over and over and over. Around this time i bought a old keyboard and started read music and learn to play it. I then got back into playing the guitar. Soon after that i picked up a bass. Next i started playing the harmonica. Drums were next. And lately i been playing the sax. I even found my old trombone in my parents closet got it out and was playing it better then i ever could before. With every instrument that i picked up the learning curve became smaller. Some might say i developed a talent over the years other might say i always had the talent. If i always possessed this musical ability then why didn't i excel at a younger age. We could continue to give example of natural talent vs acquired talent but its pointless because how can you prove when the skills developed. We are forgetting the most important element for success and that is motivation. I believe i failed at my first and secound try at music because my motivation wasn't there i was more concerned about sports or comic books or women. Now the motivation is here and all i do is breath music. These kid super stars with all the talent in the world will also fail unless the stay motivated.

 

When the New York Philharmonic comes calling at your door let me know. When that happens I'll be convinced.

 

I'll wager the Korean kid's father makes the kid practice all the time. Just like the parent that makes their kid practice soccer or whatever. No doubt in my mind about it. The kid will probably get sick of guitar at some point and tell his dad to get lost. Or not. Some kids jsut do it and do not rebel. A chosen few just really love it like a Tiger Woods. Kids like that pull you, they don't need to be pushed.

 

I've found there to be a couple ways some people handle the concept of "natural ability".

 

The first is from the gifted themselves. The gifted one's response to being said to have "God-given ability" is often to say, "No way, I worked my butt off to get my talent. It's all from my effort." In reality they didn't work any harder than anyone else and actually they might have worked less hard. It feeds their ego to be "self-made".

 

The second response often heard is for the person who lacks natural ability. They can only hope to be a marginal player. Never a star.

Their response is to deny "natural ability" because if they admit its existence it permanently dashes their dream of becoming great. This illusion of the "dream" gives them purpose. Like the little kid who dreams of being a major leaguer. Eventually the kid comes to understand it ain't gonna happen. Some people never accept it. I've known people who continue to beat their head against the wall when it's plain as day they haven't got the talent. It's sad to see. Like the football quarterback who keeps playing past his time and gets beat up, embarrasses himself. His ego won't let him quit.

 

Everybody ain't got it.

 

As far as natural ability to play guitar its the same as a sport. Some people have fast hands, coordinated hands, a musical ear, a brain that "hears" music better. Like the baseball player who can hit the curveball or throw 100mph. You can't teach it. It has to be there.

 

Motivation is often overlooked as a natural talent. Some people are naturally motivated. Most aren't. It's a gift really. Doctor's have it. Otherwise they'd never get through college and medical school.

 

Regardless of whether we have "natural ability" we can all still enjoy playing.

 

We're just not going to be Rockstarz. (Unless Disney wants us to be.)

 

Make the most of what you have. Play to your strengths.

[Selsaral]

The existence of talent became quite apparent to me in calculus class. Like math, most of what I'd call talent for music is mental, not physical. There also appears to be many different kinds of musical talent. Some people are great composers, some are great arrangers, some are great performers, some are great innovators.

[kmarsh]

When the New York Philharmonic comes calling at your door let me know. When that happens I'll be convinced. I'll wager the Korean kid's father makes the kid practice all the time. Just like the parent that makes their kid practice soccer or whatever. No doubt in my mind about it. The kid will probably get sick of guitar at some point and tell his dad to get lost. Or not. Some kids jsut do it and do not rebel. A chosen few just really love it like a Tiger Woods. Kids like that pull you , they don't need to be pushed. I've found there to be a couple ways some people handle the concept of "natural ability". The first is from the gifted themselves. The gifted one's response to being said to have "God-given ability" is often to say, "No way, I worked my butt off to get my talent. It's all from my effort." In reality they didn't work any harder than anyone else and actually they might have worked less hard. It feeds their ego to be "self-made". The second response often heard is for the person who lacks natural ability. They can only hope to be a marginal player. Never a star. Their response is to deny "natural ability" because if they admit its existence it permanently dashes their dream of becoming great. This illusion of the "dream" gives them purpose. Like the little kid who dreams of being a major leaguer. Eventually the kid comes to understand it ain't gonna happen. Some people never accept it. I've known people who continue to beat their head against the wall when it's plain as day they haven't got the talent. It's sad to see. Like the football quarterback who keeps playing past his time and gets beat up, embarrasses himself. His ego won't let him quit. Everybody ain't got it. As far as natural ability to play guitar its the same as a sport. Some people have fast hands, coordinated hands, a musical ear, a brain that "hears" music better. Like the baseball player who can hit the curveball or throw 100mph. You can't teach it. It has to be there. Motivation is often overlooked as a natural talent. Some people are naturally motivated. Most aren't. It's a gift really. Doctor's have it. Otherwise they'd never get through college and medical school. Regardless of whether we have "natural ability" we can all still enjoy playing. We're just not going to be Rockstarz. (Unless Disney wants us to be.) Make the most of what you have. Play to your strengths.

I heartily agree. I'm definitely in the "no natural ability" group when it comes to music/guitar. I do try hard, practice often and continue to get better (albeit very slowly)... but I can definitely see that I pick it up slowly compared to other players I know.

It's seems that most people would agree that you have to have real talent to be a great painter or sculptor (a "real artist"), but many will argue that being great at guitar is just a matter of persistence.

[3shiftgtr]

I call BS, she must have learned it somewhere without people noticing, maybe on the baby channel. In sports and in music you can't separate the cognitive abilities from the physical ones, you have to look at a person as a whole and the brain controls everything.

 

 

You absolutely CAN separate the cognitive from the physical. The physical is the functionality of the cognitive, in situations where MOVEMENT is the goal. Your opinion does not take into account unformed knowledge (precursory cognition) and its cognitive applications in non physical situations (such as understanding.)

 

As an example, science has PROVEN that instinct is not always learned. It can be inherited. It can be passed down through certain hereditary human species characteristic carriers. While it operates in the brain, it is not created through an outside knowledge delivery source. It is a hierarchy in the development of the species. Check out the work of Spearman, Thurstone, and Guilman

 

I submit that any natural instinct, such as the ones babies have and use to protect themselves, falls under the same process, and is evidence thereof.

 

And as for the child I witnessed, I saw it with my own 2 eyes and 2 ears. I live in a small town, and I knew the grandmother. The kid sat down at the piano one day after church and started playing the melodies to some of the hymns by ear. Never touched a piano before. The only place she had ever heard or seen one, was at church. And there was no way for the child to see the hands of the pianist from any seat in the church. The family and the people there were freaked out. She was a sweet, normal little girl. The grandma asked me, and a piano teacher and another music instructor in town to come over and see if she was "special". They didn't know what they should do or how to evaluate her. We played some simple stuff for her, and she played it back. Single note stuff. We then put a couple of simple pieces in C in front of her. She was told was to use the white keys only and we told her what the first note was. She looked at it for a minute, kinda fumbled a bit, then just played through the notes. She just understood it. We all just looked at each other. We were planning on explaining how to "look at the notes." Never got that far. This is a true story. And it is more common than you think.

[Virgman]

You don't need to be very good at guitar to be famous.

 

Just know a few chords and strum a bit and write a song.

 

Who cares if you're not Hendrix?

[jeremy_green]

Let me rant for a moment if you dont mind! Sorry for the length I'm riffin here : )

 

I think the crux of excellence lies not in "the natural" or the "10,00 hours hard work guy" it lies almost entirely in creativity. There are MANY musical greats who are really pretty bad players.

 

Creativity is something elusive in that it goes against societal norms and acceptance. Children are almost without exception creative - they are taught constantly not to be.

 

As we age a value is placed on "being right" and concepts like "us and them", forming opinions etc. I ask, Why do you feel the need to form an opinion? Why do we have to say "Oh I dont like that"?? "Oh I like this" Like has nothing to do with it. Why cant we just hear or see something an just let it be? THIS has been taught to us.

 

Here is the wikipedia definition:

 

"Creativity is a mental and social process involving the generation of new ideas or concepts, or new associations of the creative mind between existing ideas or concepts. Creativity is fueled by the process of either conscious or unconscious insight. An alternative conception of creativeness is that it is simply the act of making something new."

 

So to simplify - its the act of "making something new"

 

Now understanding this how many times have you played a bar and the audience is completely indifferent to any song they have never heard? Most/all humans like familiarity. MOST PEOPLE DONT LIKE IDEAS TO BE NEW - it freaks them out!! Likely they dont have an opinion on it thereby making them - wrong.

 

Wrong is bad.

 

Where am I going with this you ask? Good question!

I think some of us are born with more physical attributes than others, but creativity need not necessarily be one of them. As a beginner your leash is much longer. If I have been playing for 2 months and I butcher a song people go "Wow! Great job" but if I have been playing for years I suck.

 

So in the early stages those at a physical advantage play more freely - with a sense of freedom - a creativity if you will. Cause it's going well. As they get props for this they continue onward exploring and their creativity and passion grows.

 

Others struggle likely because of the physical hurdles and conversely get down on themselves because the other guy is getting better quick. So the feeling of freedom clamps down, the sense of adventure is non-existent. Replaced by a plodding safe approach designed to be "correct"

 

Music is art - art is neither correct or incorrect. It just is.

 

So take your crappy genetics and approach your music as you as a child would have. Try things that are "wrong" regardless of the feedback you get. This is not only the path the happiness but the missing ingredient in most peoples approaches.

 

Maybe you cant be the fastest player ever - so what? Be the coolest. Creativity is I believe a skill that can be reacquired. You had it at one time. It is an aspect that needs to be practiced like a fingering exercise. Yet we spend hours and hours running drills to make us what? Faster, uncreative guitarists??

 

Ha! Listen to me - I sound like a hippy

excuse me my bong is getting cold : )

 

Cheers!

[smorgdonkey]

We could continue to give example of natural talent vs acquired talent but its pointless because how can you prove when the skills developed.

 

Ok...I'll drop the term 'natural talent'. Instead of having to beat my head in and practice things a hundred times I wish that I could have absorbed it like my friend did - listen to Beatles, CCR and Neil Young and pick up their songs super easily by ear...then get the encyclopedia out and read 'the church modes' and say "hey, they're all the same" and be able to dissect any piece of music and play it effortlessly.

 

I played as much as he did but he is incredible - and I'm a singer.

 

Dude...it's 'natural talent'.

[girevik]

That's one think Sungha Jung (the kid shown in Jeremy's original post) has demonstrated - a willingness to exercise his own creativity by writing his own music and creating his own arrangements of tunes not written by himself.

Mozart was a child prodigy, yes, as mentioned in this thread. He didn't just play an instrument, though. He composed too, as a child. Composition requires... creativity...

[Virgman]

Very good points.

 

We spend too much of our time trying to play like "so-and-so" when we should be just playing and creating and being "us".

 

We admire the greats because they are unique, yet here we go trying to be them!

 

There is a thread in another of HC forums about learning to improvise.

 

"Teach me to improvise" says the forumite! Teach me to create!

 

By its definition it is impossible.

 

Girevik has posted about singing a line and then playing it by ear. Genius! This is creativity! You don't need scales to do that. Just sing and listen and pick out the notes.

 

As Jeremy said, there's a point where you put the 1-2-3-4 aside and create!

 

Obviously you need some fundamentals. But after that put some chords together, make up some chords yourself. If they sound good they are good. Put them in a progression with some rhythm. Record them. Sing a line over them. That's melody! Add some words. That's your lyrics! Play it for someone. Now you are making music!

[Jasco]

"Teach me to improvise" says the forumite! Teach me to create! By its definition it is impossible.

Virg,

You should try my "Garden-hose-method improv and creativity course" for a week. It'll teach you to improvise and think creatively quick-like.

- Jasco

[Virgman]

Virg, You should try my "Garden-hose-method improv and creativity course" for a week. It'll teach you to improvise and think creatively quick-like. - Jasco

A week?

That's too long!

[Jasco]

Sorry, I meant an hour.

[Virgman]

Sorry, I meant an hour.

 

Now you're talkin'. Sign me up!

 

I can fit an hour in between American Idol and C.S.I.

 

How soon before I can play Eruption?

[girevik]

Girevik has posted about singing a line and then playing it by ear. Genius! This is creativity! You don't need scales to do that. Just sing and listen and pick out the notes.

 

 

I just copy ideas from the real geniuses - like Ella Fitzgerald and George Benson.

 

His scat singing along with his guitar playing is unreal in this rendition of his hit song - can't do that if he's not really hearing the lines in his head though he manages to play a line faster than he can sing it around 4:00:

 

[YOUTUBE]

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