Members jorhay1 Posted November 18, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 18, 2008 Do you work for them? Thats an easy sentiment for someone not associated with them after all. Anyway, capitalists are funny, they love the market unless it costs them money what a bunch of cunts! (the capitalists that is, not the posters on this thread x) whooaaaaaaa! hold on a sec there fidel, cunts? isn't suffering and sacrifice for change what built Soviet Union?, China?, Cuba? dont see how me, making ths point, makes any difference whether i'm a capitalist, communist or cuntist. when did this thread become about capitalism vs. communism/socialism? socialism? ok fine. have the government invest in Solar, Wind, Electric Car Technology, etc with shareholders ( and create jobs for Shareholder Labor Workers) and not in 'capitalist slave machine-corporate CEO's' that sell outdated dangerous product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jorhay1 Posted November 18, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 18, 2008 Hi Mr Catlinbread,are you in favour of the automotive bailout/loan because it is the lessor of a few evils? or because you see government investment overall as a good thing? or ?,,,__________________________________________,,Yes yes EV1, I've seen the movie.what movie?__________________________________________SOCIALIZE THIS!http://www.teslamotors.com/http://www.teslamotors.com/media/press_room.php?id=974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted November 18, 2008 Members Share Posted November 18, 2008 I am in favor of a government loan to auto because they have been hit by the credit crisis as hard as the banks. Because the industry employs some 2,500,000 people. Because I perceive opposition as an ideological position not a rational one due to disdain for labor unions. I see the "let 'em die" folks who supported the bank bailouts as being class warriors. What I would like to see is a loan with a purpose. I'd like to see a shift of direct and indirect oil subsidies to companies that employ middle class Americans, not only creating wealth for shareholders but infrastructure for everybody. We're in a perfect storm right now, we're all in it together. But the attacks on labor and the working class has only increased intensity.Hi Mr Catlinbread,are you in favour of the automotive bailout/loan because it is the lessor of a few evils? or because you see government investment overall as a good thing? or ?,,,__________________________________________what movie?__________________________________________SOCIALIZE THIS!http://www.teslamotors.com/http://www.teslamotors.com/media/press_room.php?id=974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members echodeluxe Posted November 18, 2008 Members Share Posted November 18, 2008 Um. They have infrastructure to make anything if need be.What part of my argument holds no water again? My point is they are bigger and more important than any of the "let 'em die" guys are even thinking.2,500,000 jobs aren't enough? Thousands of pensioners aren't enough? At what point do you guys start thinking about subsequent events? Ultimately, I was absolutely opposed to the banking bailout. I called my congressman over and over. The auto industry is different in that what is being floated is a LOAN not a handout. It is 3% of what the banks demanded. It affects the creation of ACTUAL wealth. It affects infrastructure. It affects the middle class worker.The last gasps of the neoconservative freemarket true believers hate the idea of helping the auto idustry, because they hate the idea of unions. lots of comapnies have the infrastructure to handle wartime m,anufacturing. moot point. eh, i think the banks, being our financial foundation, need our help. they arent just companies that are failing, its all of the money of the people of america. look what happened in england! the banks in iceland tank and all the holdings of people in England are gone. for good. now iceland is getting sued? {censored} man. okay, so lets say we give the automakers a loan. they fail anyway. oops, there goes all that money. who pays back that loan? lets make all the out of work assembly line workers pay it, right? who pays that loan back? you give a business loan to a company that has a good business model that will show an increase of profits, ensuring the bank that they will pay back the loan. GM is about to go bankrupt! how can the promise to pay back a loan? thats almost as bad as subprime lending. no wait, probably worse. hows that for subsequent events? i dont want americans to lose jobs. i dont want to see american labor take a hit, but i just feel like id rather look at reality in the face rather than toss wad of cash behind my back while walking away from it. and LOL at class warriors. wtf? class warfare? who are you bill o'rielly? its not class warfare, its called accountability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 eh, i think the banks, being our financial foundation, need our help. they arent just companies that are failing, its all of the money of the people of america. look what happened in england! the banks in iceland tank and all the holdings of people in England are gone. for good. now iceland is getting sued? {censored} man.okay, so lets say we give the automakers a loan. they fail anyway. oops, there goes all that money. who pays back that loan? lets make all the out of work assembly line workers pay it, right? who pays that loan back?you give a business loan to a company that has a good business model that will show an increase of profits, ensuring the bank that they will pay back the loan. GM is about to go bankrupt! how can the promise to pay back a loan? thats almost as bad as subprime lending. no wait, probably worse. hows that for subsequent events?i dont want americans to lose jobs. i dont want to see american labor take a hit, but i just feel like id rather look at reality in the face rather than toss wad of cash behind my back while walking away from it. You know, I hate to be lame. But I get the daily Neil Cavuto talking points. You have them memorized impressively! You can't want Americans to keep their jobs and not consider supporting the companies who employ them. Inconsistent from the line. Of course they need to change trajectory. Of course they need to change products. But you don't do that by killing off the companies who have the means to deliver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jorhay1 Posted November 19, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 I don't hate unions, dont hate the middle class, dont hate the working man i have 3 kids buddy, i am the {censored}ing working man:evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members echodeluxe Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 You know, I hate to be lame. But I get the daily Neil Cavuto talking points. You have them memorized impressively!You can't want Americans to keep their jobs and not consider supporting the companies who employ them. Inconsistent from the line. Of course they need to change trajectory. Of course they need to change products. But you don't do that by killing off the companies who have the means to deliver. who? dude, you cant say i dont support the working class because the company a bunch of working class people work for {censored}ing blows and is going under. thats backwards ass logic. i want them to have good steady work where they get paid well. GM will fail. WILL. will will will. regardless of if we throw tons of cash at them or not. you have to understand that, but you think that they are magically gonna do good with a loan? no. no {censored}ing way. they will exhaust the loan money and not be able to pay it back. and they dont have the means to deliver, thats why they are begging for a loan!! jesus, really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nich Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 echodeluxe, you still can't grasp that GM was meeting demand with supply and would have gone out of business years ago if they didn't make the trucks and SUVs that the largest segment of the market wanted. They would be fine now if it weren't for the weakened dollar causing gas prices to surge and the current credit crisis preventing both demand and supply side from adjusting as needed. You're mad that the people of our country used their freedom of choice to buy the popular/trendy/stupid giant vehicle. I don't like it any more than you do, but are you saying GM should have started the necessary research and development to make hybrids 20+ years ago when nobody was interested in that type of car here in the states? Are you saying that since we didn't want them we all should have been forced to line up and buy them regardless of preference? What kind of economic model is THAT? Just because Japan mandated it of their auto industry in the 80's doesn't mean that we should have followed suit. That's not how America works. Are you for or against government regulation of industry? The big redneck/moron vehicle market was the biggest/most lucrative for them to stay in. That was the only market space they could compete in because it would take years and years of R&D to develop a car that could compete in the niche small/efficient segment. It would be a poor business decision to spend the extensive R&D just to enter a small market that the majority of the country would still be ~20 years away from today if the economic situation did not shift as it did. Again, the large vehicles are {censored}ty for everyone, but in our country consumers have a choice and you can't expect GM to have ignored the rising demand for these big vehicles so that they could halt production and force hybrids down everyone's throats. That's not America. Take it or leave it. The auto makers are failing because of three issues 1) Americans living beyond their means, having a glutenous standard of living with no sense of modesty. In itself this isn't going to bankrupt the auto makers, but see 2 and 3. 2) The quick change of demand from huge trucks/SUVs to more reasonable transportation due to the previously rapid increase in gas. In itself this isn't going to bankrupt the auto makers, though it is certainly a giant problem. 3) The credit crisis keeping the market from changing gears and adjusting on both the supply and demand side. Bingo. Work through the crisis and 1 and 2 will resolve naturally in our economic model. With the economic situation in Japan, their auto industry would fall flat on its face right now if suddenly everyone over there wanted huge SUVs and would not buy small efficient cars. Can't you see that? I accept the terms of your surrender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members echodeluxe Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 I accept the terms of your surrender. why cant anyone here have a civil discussion while abstaining from being a condescending prick. all of your points are pretty good. you make a good argument and i sort of agree. however, you basically just said that GM is obsolete. they make big ass trucks and stuff. cool. they do it great. but thats not what we want/need anymore. they met a demand, and now they dont. honestly, this isnt making a good case for a loan. you guys keep forgetting that they need to prove that they can make a profit and that they can pay back the loan, right? how are they gonna do that if they are on the edge of tanking? hmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 who?dude, you cant say i dont support the working class because the company a bunch of working class people work for {censored}ing blows and is going under. thats backwards ass logic. i want them to have good steady work where they get paid well. GM will fail. WILL. will will will. regardless of if we throw tons of cash at them or not. you have to understand that, but you think that they are magically gonna do good with a loan? no. no {censored}ing way. they will exhaust the loan money and not be able to pay it back. and they dont have the means to deliver, thats why they are begging for a loan!! jesus, really? They don't have the means to deliver because they are also CREDITORS. The credit freeze has thrown a wrench in their sales. We can wax on about the reasons for and morality of auto companies being creditors in the first place. We can also armchair quarter back about how they make crappy products. The problem they are having RIGHT now is not because of these fixable factors. It is the result of frozen credit. THAT needs to be dealt with short term. If you are a free market warrior at least be consistent, if domestic auto deserves nothing then BANKS deserve nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jorhay1 Posted November 19, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 , if domestic auto deserves nothing then BANKS deserve nothing. no arguement here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members echodeluxe Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 haha fine, lets give them the loan. i bet you $25 billion they tank and dont repay the loan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 haha fine, lets give them the loan. i bet you $25 billion they tank and dont repay the loan.Haha I wonder if the bankers will ever pay back the $700B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpectralJulian Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 How about instead of spending massive amounts of money on corporate welfare, how about we spend it on public works projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 How about instead of spending massive amounts of money on corporate welfare, how about we spend it on public works projects. Arguably companies like GM could play a big part in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members echodeluxe Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 Haha I wonder if the bankers will ever pay back the $700B. its not a loan. you argue just to argue and its lolerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 its not a loan. you argue just to argue and its lolerful.So you are all for the bankers holding the US economy at gun point telling us to hand over $700B or else... But not for companies who are looking for a $25B loan to get them through hardships caused by said bankers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smrz Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 here's the deal...because of the liquidity crisis, they wouldn't get loans when declaring bankruptcy. because of this, they would have to file or chapter 7, not 11, bankruptcy, in which the companies would cease to operate and would be liquidated. the effect of this would be massive...it has been estimated that it would lead to a loss of 1-3 million jobs over the next two years. more depth: http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=a4893b49-36df-4784-9859-2dfa3a3211bf not to say the money they should get should be without precondition, and not to say that anyone is happy about giving these companies cash to reward them for short-sightedness. they are already moving in the right direction though, and the money can come with conditions. the government has all the negotiating power in the world to set conditions for that money, and to ensure that the big three set smart policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smrz Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 GM will fail. WILL. will will will. what makes you so sure? over the past few years, the big three have worked to renegotiate their relationship with their workforces to bring down costs and put serious investment into research. they finally started to make some smart moves in just the last few years, and then got hit with this crisis. so why is it a foregone conclusion? again, http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=a4893b49-36df-4784-9859-2dfa3a3211bf on a broader scale, in an economic crisis such as this one, the cost of doing to much is rarely as big as the cost of doing too little. the potential payoff for bailing out the automakers makes it absolutely worth the infusion of federal capital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NotDead Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 3 million people should lose their jobs because a TEST VEHICLE was logistically difficult to mass produce and the market was more interested in the road-proven hummer? Great logic. A+ thread. If you business or employer runs on money, then you're taking a hit when these companies go down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NotDead Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 How about instead of spending massive amounts of money on corporate welfare, how about we spend it on public works projects. Biggest budget "Public welfare" projects in history- The final solution(i.e. the holocaust) Spanish inquisition Collectivization of the Ukraine The "new deal" None of these have had positive outcomes for the people at large. Companies generally know how to balance a budget better than a government, and way better than many of the american people. I don't liek the government giving it to TANKING companies, but it's still a better idea than them spending it on women who can't keep their legs shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 Biggest budget "Public welfare" projects in history-The final solution(i.e. the holocaust)Spanish inquisitionCollectivization of the UkraineThe "new deal"None of these have had positive outcomes for the people at large.Companies generally know how to balance a budget better than a government, and way better than many of the american people.I don't liek the government giving it to TANKING companies, but it's still a better idea than them spending it on women who can't keep their legs shut. What about dudes who can't keep their dicks in their pants? New Deal and Holocaust on the same page huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smrz Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 The "new deal" The only way the new deal failed was because it wasn't audacious enough. Most of the criticism you read fails to take into account that people employed by the WPA were listed as "unemployed" and look closely at the dip in 1938, when public works spending was cut back due to conservative backlash. The lesson of the new deal is not restraint, but to go further than FDR did. Moreover: http://edgeofthewest.wordpress.com/2008/11/06/stop-lying-about-roosevelts-record/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members echodeluxe Posted November 19, 2008 Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 you guys = lol. short sightedness isnt anyone fault but their own. they are analog in a digital age! (lol, see what i did there?) if they cant self sustain, then wtf. and someone explain the bank crisis to mr. catalinbread. he seems to think we should let our financial institutions fail. because THATS not worse than car companies going under. puh-lease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jorhay1 Posted November 19, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 19, 2008 Great logic. A+ thread. If you business or employer runs on money, then you're taking a hit when these companies go down. yeah i'm taking a hit bring it:evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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