Automotive Bailout? are they friggin' kidding?

[echodeluxe]

{censored} em.

[Brian Marshall]

thats why i still think the market will reform itself if left alone.

 

 

by then we will all be dead.

[Brian Marshall]

Toyota pays its US workers about $25-30 dollars less an hour than GM, has a fraction of the number of dealerships GM has, and is relatively financially sound. Hmmm. Maybe it's just a coincidence. Or Toyota made a pact with the devil.

 

 

The average GM line worker makes $27/hour. So you are saying toyotas employees work for free?

 

By the way: http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/31/toyota-workers-in-us-made-more-than-uaw-members-for-first-time-l/

 

The truth is if a bailout of $25billion would work it would actually be cheaper (much cheaper) than letting them go out of business. There's millions of jobs at stake indirectly, which basically would equal billions of dollars in tax revenue lost, and then there are all the legacy benefits that the government would have to take over (pensions, health care for retired workers)

 

Yes, it sucks. Yes sometimes it's satisfying to see someone get what they deserve, but not if it's going to harm you as well.

 

It comes down to this... they will be bailed out one way or another. The terms of the bailout will hopefully push them in the right direction. We will do this because we have no choice, other than sliding down the slippery slope, and once we get down there... well, I'll just say we don't want to go down there.

[Brian Marshall]

go to work for toyota or honda?

 

 

ummmm they aren't exactly doing awesome right now either. Car sales in the US are down overall, not just GM.

[Brian Marshall]

while my answers are short and tart, i know this stuff is no joke, and that the fallout will go on forever. but at the same time, for years it was obvious that the US economy was one built almost solely on imagination. to have not expected this sorta {censored}storm all over (finance, real estate, automotive, food, etc) eventually was just living with blinders on.

 

capitalism in it's self is an imagination game... even more so it relies on market psychology, and constant growth.

 

50+mpg, acheived in 1981, iirc. it could've been chased and well exceeded by the BF3, but drink-holders and gas-guzzling technology was of more importance. let them sleep in the bed they made.

 

 

Unfortunately it's the bed we will all end up sleeping in.

[jorhay1]

by then we will all be dead.

 

 

perhaps

 

but i for one will rest in peace knowing we left our kids and future generations a little bit less of a {censored} hole for their future.

 

it's not always about whats going to make us the least uncomfortable right now

[Brian Marshall]

where in the world did you hear that unemployment could reach 28% i read that if gm goes under it could push unemployment as high as 9.5%

 

 

the main argument for this is that first, most of the autoworkers get laid off. Then the suppliers that supply them lay everyone off. auto sales companyies go under... you are already about at millions of jobs lost... and it would happen rather quickly. suddenly you have a lot less money moving around in the economy. Property values fall even more. banks are already not lending. consumer spending falls, which reduces overall demand for goods and services, which ultimately is what keeps people employed. Since the credit markets are so tight, companies that would otherwise be able to get through lean times with a line of credit will not have that option.

 

Then of course the federal government has a total budget shortfall and starts printing up money to pay off bonds and notes that are coming due. foreign countries see this and start dumping their dollars. trillions in assets are wiped out all over the world, especially ones we trade with a lot.

[Brian Marshall]

Lithium Ion technology is incredibly expensive. So are solar panels (wonder why?...they've been on the market since the 70's). I do see something suspicious about oil companies buying alternative energy patents...especially when said oil company sits on those patents for as long as {censored}ing possible without any development being done.

 

 

let's keep in mind that the solar panels from the 70's are not nearly efficient enough to make any real dent in our energy consumption. The costs were not just because of it being new technolgy. the actual material needed to construct them was bulky and expensive.

 

Nanosolar looks to be working on some really promising stuff, and looks like they can deliver solar for about the same cost as burning coal, but this is BRAND NEW tecnology. not even possible on a large scale five years ago.

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

the main argument for this is that first, most of the autoworkers get laid off. Then the suppliers that supply them lay everyone off. auto sales companyies go under... you are already about at millions of jobs lost... and it would happen rather quickly. suddenly you have a lot less money moving around in the economy. Property values fall even more. banks are already not lending. consumer spending falls, which reduces overall demand for goods and services, which ultimately is what keeps people employed. Since the credit markets are so tight, companies that would otherwise be able to get through lean times with a line of credit will not have that option. Then of course the federal government has a total budget shortfall and starts printing up money to pay off bonds and notes that are coming due. foreign countries see this and start dumping their dollars. trillions in assets are wiped out all over the world, especially ones we trade with a lot.

 

If the Fed prints money, thus making it worth less then the debts would be cheaper!!!!

[Brian Marshall]

perhaps but i for one will rest in peace knowing we left our kids and future generations a little bit less of a {censored} hole for their future. it's not always about whats going to make us the least uncomfortable right now

 

 

ummm I am not so much talking about right now, as i am about the basic total failure of the world economy as we know it. if this happens money will be worthless... our children may not make it either. If we see the whole world slide off an economic cliff in the next year or so, that $25billion will look like a sweet deal in retrospect.

 

There are plenty of things for GM that is simply out of their hands... the credit market is a good example. normally if GM had a shortfall they could get a loan from a bank, but the banks are all going under.

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

 

ummm I am not so much talking about right now, as i am about the basic total failure of the world economy as we know it. if this happens money will be worthless... our children may not make it either. If we see the whole world slide off an economic cliff in the next year or so, that $25billion will look like a sweet deal in retrospect. There are plenty of things for GM that is simply out of their hands... the credit market is a good example. normally if GM had a shortfall they could get a loan from a bank, but the banks are all going under.

 

 

A long time ago the automakers realized there is little they can do to increase the profits off of the sale of a car... They realized they can regain some of this through financing. There are a lot of things that are causing this crisis for GM. But I think financing is bigger cause than whether or not they were making Yukons or Hummers.

[HeartfeltDawn]

I have to agree on this one. I don't think the auto industry should get a public bailout. It will only postpone the inevitable. The US auto companies cannot continue to function in the long run. They didn't make small fuel-efficient cars, but it's not because their management is stupid. It's because the profit margins on small cars is much lower than the margins on big SUV's and trucks, and there's no way they could build a car with the same quality as a Toyota or Honda, and still sell it as cheap as a foreign car. Foreign auto companies build their cars in the US in non-Union shops, and have far lower labor costs than US car companies. The US car companies have contracts with the labor unions that they can't break, and the unions have made it clear they won't be making any concessions to help bail out the car makers. There are only two ways the US can continue to manufacture cars and stay profitable. Either they have to break the UAW, or they have to find a way to force foreign car companies to increase wages and organize their workers. I don't see any chance of either of these happening, so the only other option is to let them go bust. Throwing money at it will not make this problem go away.

 

 

 

 

Am I right in thinking that benefits and wages are very generous at GM? Any examples of wage structure would be most welcome.

[whoshotwhointhe]

bring the teslas/etc, let the competition heat up.

 

 

Word

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

 

I have to agree on this one. I don't think the auto industry should get a public bailout. It will only postpone the inevitable. The US auto companies cannot continue to function in the long run. They didn't make small fuel-efficient cars, but it's not because their management is stupid. It's because the profit margins on small cars is much lower than the margins on big SUV's and trucks, and there's no way they could build a car with the same quality as a Toyota or Honda, and still sell it as cheap as a foreign car. Foreign auto companies build their cars in the US in non-Union shops, and have far lower labor costs than US car companies. The US car companies have contracts with the labor unions that they can't break, and the unions have made it clear they won't be making any concessions to help bail out the car makers. There are only two ways the US can continue to manufacture cars and stay profitable. Either they have to break the UAW, or they have to find a way to force foreign car companies to increase wages and organize their workers. I don't see any chance of either of these happening, so the only other option is to let them go bust. Throwing money at it will not make this problem go away.

 

 

If these workers' wages were linked to their increased productivity they'd be making 3-4 times the amount they currently make. After all GM was in business 40 years ago... As flawed as they are unions are democratizing forces in the owner/worker balance of power. They are not to blame unless thinking is painful... As a matter of fact the increased regularity and intensity of recession/boon is linked to a widening gap between the people who gets to keep the wealth and the people who actually CREATE the wealth.

[jorhay1]

,,, if this happens money will be worthless... our children may not make it either.

 

 

did you just say that if we don't bail out the automotive industry human life will cease to exist?

[jorhay1]

bring the teslas/etc, let the competition heat up.

 

 

and the jobs be created

 

 

no?

[echodeluxe]

 

They are not to blame unless thinking is painful...

 

 

can you reply to a differing point of view without insults? id just like to see that.

 

EDIT: also, i dont get what you are saying. hes not "blaming the worker", japanese car companies can do it cheaper and better than us. US car companies have contracts with unions that keep wages for workers here up etc. thats not a bad thing, obviously, but when there is a competitor that isnt shackled by those same regulations that can make a comparable or better car, then its just natural as to what will happen.

 

these companies will fail, whether we throw billions at them or not. they will fail soon, or a little later than soon. are we gonna toss billions more at the problem, only to have it not go away or be fixed? i dont want thousands of americans to lose their jobs, but bad {censored} happens like this and we have to realize that we have been fat and greedy for a while, its gonna be tough for america for a while but we will get through it.

[jorhay1]

But I think financing is bigger cause than whether or not they were making EV-1's or Hummers.

 

 

disagree

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

can you reply to a differing point of view without insults? id just like to see that.

 

 

Um. It is not an insult. The TV pundits blame the unions, blame employee wages, blame employee benefits ad nauseum. Why do the pundits do that and get away with it day in and day out? It is easier than blaming executives, our insane trade policy, the lack of universal healthcare etc. Plain and simply it is easier to blame the workers.

 

Put something like the following into a discussion unscripted without warning, you will likely see their heads explode after they are able to mutter the word, "socialist". Thinking off message is painful and to others it is an insult.

 

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." (often shortened to "Labor precedes capital").

Abraham Lincoln, First Annual Message to Congress, December 3, 1861

[echodeluxe]

okay i dont disagree with that. thats just common sense. the insult i noticed was "unless thinking is painful" in which i thought you were calling amp_surgeon stupid. if not i digress.

 

but either way, what does this have to do with what he said? the unions clamp down to make sure that the workers get paid what they deserve for the work they do. fantastic. thats a good thing.

 

however, since the foreign companies do not have these regulatory entities, they pay whateverthe{censored} they want, right? so, they are doing it cheaper and better. they have an advantage. its not a good one, because its kinda slimy if you think about it, but its an advantage in their favor nonetheless. US companies, as a result, cant compete. people are buying bigass SUV's and the like less and less, and that is US Auto's big money maker. what to do now? they cant do subcompact economy cars cheaper and better than foreign companies! {censored}! HELP! WE NEED MONEY!!!

 

its natural. survival of the fittest.

 

its terrible that its happening, but we cant do anything about it. i hate to se thousands of americans out of a job, but what can we do? GM will fail. now or next week or next month or july 2009. it will. if we give them a {censored} load of money, the CEO's will buy bigger yachts and the employees will have jobs for maybe another year? two years? is that job security?

 

i dunno.

[Nich]

haha, wow. You arm chair analysts are going to be chewing your words and stale bread if your "burn baby burn" bull{censored} comes true.

 

A lot of you are basically advocating the suffering of millions of Americans because you're bitter that tax dollars might go towards our country instead of building military bases in Iraq.

 

clue: our economy can't really handle this many job losses. We can't pay the unemployment claims. We can't handle the uninsured health issues.

 

Do you guys realize how much {censored}ING TAX REVENUE a corporation like GM pays and how much their employees pay?

 

Do you realize how much tax revenue comes from the suppliers, the dealers, and their employees? Do you realize how much tax revenue is generated by the goods and services their employees purchase? Do you realize how much juice they put into our economy? Do you even realize how much tax revenue comes from the sale of the cars?

 

Do you have any idea how LITTLE the spending to keep from losing all this tax revenue is compared to what we dump into defense contractors yearly?

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

okay i dont disagree with that. thats just common sense. the insult i noticed was "unless thinking is painful" in which i thought you were calling amp_surgeon stupid. if not i digress. but either way, what does this have to do with what he said? the unions clamp down to make sure that the workers get paid what they deserve for the work they do. fantastic. thats a good thing. however, since the foreign companies do not have these regulatory entities, they pay whateverthe{censored} they want, right? so, they are doing it cheaper and better. they have an advantage. its not a good one, because its kinda slimy if you think about it, but its an advantage in their favor nonetheless. US companies, as a result, cant compete. people are buying bigass SUV's and the like less and less, and that is US Auto's big money maker. what to do now? they cant do subcompact economy cars cheaper and better than foreign companies! {censored}! HELP! WE NEED MONEY!!! its natural. survival of the fittest. its terrible that its happening, but we cant do anything about it. i hate to se thousands of americans out of a job, but what can we do? GM will fail. now or next week or next month or july 2009. it will. if we give them a {censored} load of money, the CEO's will buy bigger yachts and the employees will have jobs for maybe another year? two years? is that job security? i dunno.

'Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.'

[Nich]

how come people like echodeluxe never said "iraq/the middle east will fail even if we keep funneling money into it" but they doubt the ability of American workers to succeed in our own economy?

[Nich]

why is the republican party is only conservative when it comes to spending money on our own country? We could build castles of diamonds in iraq and you guys would cheer for it if someone on fox told you it is a good thing.

 

How brain washed ARE you?

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

haha, wow. You arm chair analysts are going to be chewing your words and stale bread if your "burn baby burn" bull{censored} comes true. A lot of you are basically advocating the suffering of millions of Americans because you're bitter that tax dollars might go towards our country instead of building military bases in Iraq. clue: our economy can't really handle this many job losses. We can't pay the unemployment claims. We can't handle the uninsured health issues. Do you guys realize how much {censored}ING TAX REVENUE a corporation like GM pays and how much their employees pay? Do you realize how much tax revenue comes from the suppliers, the dealers, and their employees? Do you realize how much tax revenue is generated by the goods and services their employees purchase? Do you realize how much juice they put into our economy? Do you even realize how much tax revenue comes from the sale of the cars? Do you have any idea how LITTLE the spending to keep from losing all this tax revenue is compared to what we dump into defense contractors yearly?

But talking like this leaves a person having to consider that maybe there really is a class war... At the very least a war against democratized workplaces... The goal posts being Reagan's PATCO and Bush's lame duck "cut off your nose to spite your face" bitch slap of the UAW... $1T is no problem to bail out capital... $25B is WAY too much for domestic manufacturing infrastructure.