This documentary I'm in (noise/experimental "music" content)

[asynchro_nous]

 

I'm not questioning whether or not something is or isn't music. That's not not point at all. What I'm asking , is if someone like John Cage can call a complete lack of sound music, why can't I call a complete lack of visuals film? You implied it's not the same thing (left shoes and all). I assert that if you're going to call nothing something, you can call nothing any equally vaporous term, such as "art", "drama", "film", "literature", "religion", or "truth".   If the posters in this forum claim that John Cage could just as well have said " 4'33" is my art-film; that is, a complete lack of visuals"

[ElectricPuppy]

Hi. You're a brat.

Actually, what we have here is a pseudo-intellectual man-child in love with his own intellect. "Brat", for short.

[droolmaster0]

Actually, what we have here is a pseudo-intellectual man-child in love with his own intellect. "Brat", for short.

My avatar can lick your avatar.

[ElectricPuppy]

Not unless he gets paid. Bring me mah money, ho!

[The Audacity Works]

Now, it's been quite awhile since I read what he said about it, so I might be getting it wrong, but first - I don't think that he was using 'music' in the same objective sense that people are using here. And, I think that he was including the noise from the environment in his conception of the piece - the fans, the rumbling of stomachs, the murder in the 3rd row taking place a 2'14", etc. In a way (and this is me, not him) he's playing with all of these so-called definitions of music that some are starting with here. To me, it's both a piece of music (in that it is a human manipulation of sound and silence in time) and a piece of performance art. I suppose that there were good and bad performances, people who appreciated it and those that didn't, those that didn't because they thought it was bad music, and those that did and didn't experience it as music, but as a joke (which in a way, it was).

That's the way I interpreted it as well, and perhaps Cage's more fervent fanbase isn't in on the joke. Or maybe they are. As you know, it's not uncommon for pedestrians to amplify an innocent experiment's artsy-fartness exponentially. I only hope Cage occasionally rolls his eyes at these people once in a while.

 

That said, I like quite a bit of his prepared piano stuff. Even have a sample library of it.

but by my calling it music, I'm not saying that music is this quality that exists in this composition, and that if only we were objective about it, we could find it somehow. It was music because it had to do with sound, and a composer who put it together in the way he did, not because of what it actually sounded like.

Understood. Would you say the "put it together in the way he did" is measurable in any way, or is that also fruitless to quantify or qualify?

You lost me on this one...I suppose he could have called it something else, if the intent of the piece, say, was for people to focus on visual, as opposed to sonic features of the environment (considering silence as one of them). I'm not sure what 'calling nothing something vaporous' is supposed to mean.

Well, if 4'33" was not truly meant to be perfect silence (what with audience noises and whatnot), then I suppose it's no longer nothing, and therefore, my inquiry is pointless.

Well, in the sense that 0 = 0, yeah, but I think that art is more than individual instants of stimulation without context. The absence of my left shoe could really only be considered music, or art, in some context where it had meaning.

I think a lot of people feel that noise music is 90% context and 10% stimulation. Obviously, that's subjective, and all art/media suffers from some amount of compensating a lack of compelling stimulation with context... More so when the context is controversial or criminally obtuse. Or as it is with a few noise artists, missing almost entirely.

 

I seem to remember an instance where some artist invited people to a gallery full of blank canvases. He locked them in the room for an hour and called it "performance art". That's certainly an instance of context independent of medium, somewhat akin to "You think you've been listening to silent music, but it's actually a pictureless movie".

[carbon111]

 

I think a lot of people feel that noise music is 90% context and 10% stimulation.

 

 

I hope not. That would be so sad if true...

[The Audacity Works]

Really this is a misunderstanding (albeit a fairly common misunderstanding) of 4'33" and Cage's aesthetic generally. Cage would likely have laughed his ass off at the idea that this piece completely lacks sound. It's meant to be performed live and every performance not only has lots of sound for an attentive listener to "enjoy" but will sound different (sometimes very different, depending on the general mood of the audience, the nature of the collected ambient sounds and pattern of progress of these ambient sound events, the acoustic-- but also olfactory/tactile/visual -- topography of each particular performance space, the current cognitive and affective state -- consciousness -- that is both being experienced by the subject and is the very equipment with which the subject experiences the performance, etc. etc........) every single time it is performed.

Sure, that can only be assumed, but you summed it up nicely.

 

What's your take on the infringement lawsuits?

[pgunders]

I quite liked Soundgarden's "One Minute of Silence" (half a cover of Lennon and Ono's "Two Minutes of Silence").

Which is music to your ears, the sound of Yoko singing or the sound of Yoko not singing?

[droolmaster0]

That's the way I interpreted it as well, and perhaps Cage's more fervent fanbase isn't in on the joke. Or maybe they are. As you know, it's not uncommon for pedestrians to amplify an innocent experiment's artsy-fartness exponentially. I only hope Cage occasionally rolls his eyes at these people once in a while.

 

 

I think that this is somewhat difficult for him now because of his condition. He writes instructions on a pad, and his assistants roll their eyes.

 

 

That said, I like quite a bit of his prepared piano stuff. Even have a sample library of it.Understood. Would you say the "put it together in the way he did" is measurable in any way, or is that also fruitless to quantify or qualify?

 

 

I'm not entirely sure what we would be measuring. So, not that it's fruitless, but that it doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

Well, if 4'33" was not truly meant to be perfect silence (what with audience noises and whatnot), then I suppose it's no longer nothing, and therefore, my inquiry is pointless.I think a lot of people feel that noise music is 90% context and 10% stimulation. Obviously, that's subjective, and all art/media suffers from some amount of compensating a lack of compelling stimulation with context... More so when the context is controversial or criminally obtuse. Or as it is with a few noise artists, missing almost entirely.

 

 

As there have always been, there are bad musicians of every type and color, though I admit that I have yet to hear a bad green one.

 

 

I seem to remember an instance where some artist invited people to a gallery full of blank canvases. He locked them in the room for an hour and called it "performance art". That's certainly an instance of context independent of medium, somewhat akin to "You think you've been listening to silent music, but it's actually a pictureless movie".

 

 

You can pretty much do anything and call it art, which is both a good and a bad thing. I'm comfortable with it, but also the ability to call it bull{censored} when I think it, and also the ability to revise my opinions as I grow wiser. I once thought that 4'33" was bull{censored}.

[mytee2.0]

Actually, what we have here is a pseudo-intellectual man-child in love with his own intellect. "Brat", for short.

 

he's ssooOOOOoo cool though

 

WITH THE ANGER AND NOT CARING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[asynchro_nous]

What's your take on the infringement lawsuits?

 

Well he's been dead since '92, so it's nothing to do with him, of course.

 

Not sure if the publisher is motivated purely by $ or if there is a genuinely idealistic motive (to preserve the body and spirit of his work....???)....

 

An interesting situation -- I'm going to investigate it a bit.....

 

COVER ME

 

I'M GOING IN

 

[The Audacity Works]

I think that this is somewhat difficult for him now because of his condition. He writes instructions on a pad, and his assistants roll their eyes.

Wasn't aware of that.

I'm not entirely sure what we would be measuring. So, not that it's fruitless, but that it doesn't make sense to me.

Hmm... I guess the question is: How much work does one have to do to say he or she "composed" a piece of music? Could it simply be accidentally farting in a room? Or purposely farting? Or purposely farting through a cardboard tube? Or purposely farting through a cardboard tube, and moving the tube like a cutoff filter? Or would one have to record the filtered fart and alter it in some way? Would truncating the last whoosh of air by 20 ms suffice? Or would it have to be chopped to the point where it audibly sounds like work was done? Again, I suspect this is all subjective as well, 'cause we're dealing with the definition of "compose". Is its definition perhaps a bit less obtuse than that of "music"? Never mind.

I only ask because when kids toss three random loops into GarageBand, burn a CD, and say "Hey, check out the song I composed!", it does admittedly

[droolmaster0]

Wasn't aware of that. :(Hmm... I guess the question is: How much work does one have to do to say he or she "composed" a piece of music? Could it simply be accidentally farting in a room? Or purposely farting? Or purposely farting through a cardboard tube? Or purposely farting through a cardboard tube, and moving the tube like a cutoff filter? Or would one have to record the filtered fart and alter it in some way? Would truncating the last whoosh of air by 20 ms suffice? Or would it have to be chopped to the point where it audibly sounds like work was done? Again, I suspect this is all subjective as well, 'cause we're dealing with the definition of "compose". Is its definition perhaps a bit less obtuse than that of "music"? Never mind.

 

 

I just don't understand why, if you understand the 'definition' that has been proposed, you'd be asking this. I don't find this to be interesting. How do you quantify this kind of work? Do you mean great physical effort, or mental effort? I think that Mozart wrote some of his music with very little effort. If you heard something that you REALLY enjoyed, and then found out that it was written with little effort at all - say, the effort was mostly in the CHOICE of what to record....maybe some cool industrial noises processed through a modular in a few seconds - but you really loved the way it sounded. Would you decide it was or wasn't music subsequent to this enjoyment based on the work that the composer did? None of this matters. It's all silly. Just enjoy what you like to listen to, and what you like composing, and it's all music. I see no reason to be exclusionary, except when it comes to what I enjoy and what I don't.

 

 

I only ask because when kids toss three random loops into GarageBand, burn a CD, and say "Hey, check out the song I composed!", it does admittedly

[The Audacity Works]

I just don't understand why, if you understand the 'definition' that has been proposed, you'd be asking this. I don't find this to be interesting. How do you quantify this kind of work? Do you mean great physical effort, or mental effort? I think that Mozart wrote some of his music with very little effort. If you heard something that you REALLY enjoyed, and then found out that it was written with little effort at all - say, the effort was mostly in the CHOICE of what to record....maybe some cool industrial noises processed through a modular in a few seconds - but you really loved the way it sounded. Would you decide it was or wasn't music subsequent to this enjoyment based on the work that the composer did? None of this matters. It's all silly. Just enjoy what you like to listen to, and what you like composing, and it's all music. I see no reason to be exclusionary, except when it comes to what I enjoy and what I don't.

Again, I'm not passing judgment; I'm just discussing the particulars. Of course brilliance can be made with little effort.

But what if they lucked into something that sounded great? Maybe a lack of talent means that the chances that you'll stumble on something great are a lot less...

Someone got paid an ass-ton of money to press play on a Korg ES-1 (Preset loop 001). It was featured on a Nissan commercial, unaltered in any way, by itself. I'm not saying this is good or bad, and there's certainly skill in choosing existing material (DJs); but would you, droolmaster0, say he "composed" that particular piece of music? If the answer is "who cares, stop sweating the definitions", I'd say it's funny and interesting that today, it takes little to no effort to end up with a finished product. That, and some people might claim it undermines musicianship. Of course, now "musicianship" is the nebulous term, so maybe this thread should just be shot in the head.

[asynchro_nous]

Tune in next week for questions to the answer:

 

Marriage is Marriage!

[droolmaster0]

Again, I'm not passing judgment; I'm just discussing the particulars. Of course brilliance can be made with little effort.Someone got paid an ass-ton of money to press play on a Korg ES-1 (Preset loop 001). It was featured on a Nissan commercial, unaltered in any way, by itself. I'm not saying this is good or bad, and there's certainly skill in choosing existing material (DJs); but would you, droolmaster0, say he "composed" that particular piece of music? If the answer is "who cares, stop sweating the definitions", I'd say it's funny and interesting that today, it takes little to no effort to end up with a finished product. That, and some people might claim it undermines musicianship. Of course, now "musicianship" is the nebulous term, so maybe this thread should just be shot in the head.

 

 

Certainly, in a very minimal way, he composed the piece, in that he chose (I assume) to play that particular loop in that particular context. The piece being differentiated by its context, rather than the sounds themselves...I don't see the point of drawing this line and saying that everything above it is composing, and everything below is not. However, given that the loop had already been created by someone else, and (afaik) the only 'artistic' point being made was, when do I get my check, I don't see why I should take him very seriously as a composer. Wherever you draw the line, you can come up with a 'counterexample', set up in a different context, which seems to undermine your definition.

[The Audacity Works]

Wherever you draw the line, you can come up with a 'counterexample', set up in a different context, which seems to undermine your definition.

I have no definition. If anything, I'm questioning whether or not there even is one.

[droolmaster0]

sigh. why worry about it? Several expansive ones have been offered. Are we back to the beginning again?

[The Audacity Works]

sigh. why worry about it? Several expansive ones have been offered. Are we back to the beginning again?

Who's worried? Can't there simply be a discussion?

[BonsoWonderDog]

Beer is not beer.

[sizzlemeister]

Who's worried? Can't there simply be a discussion?

 

 

Well, look at the guy sighing all of the time, obviously he's depressed. I think a simple discussion would just put him over the edge. Hope there isn't a gun around.

[mytee2.0]

I was lonelier than Kunta Kinte at a Merle Haggard concert

That night I strolled on into Uncle Limpy's Hump Palace lookin' for love.

It had been a while.

In fact, three hundred and sixty-five had come and went

since that midnight run haulin' hog to Shakey Town on I-10.

I had picked up this hitchhiker that was sweatin' gallons

through a pair of Daisy Duke cut-offs and one of those Fruit Of The Loom tank-tops.

Well, that night I lost myself to ruby red lips,

milky white skin and baby blue eyes.

Name was Russell.

 

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

Well I find it's quite a thrill

When she grinds me against her will

Yes a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

 

Well, faster than you can say, "shallow grave",

this pretty little thing come up to me and starts kneadin' my balls

like hard-boiled eggs in a tube sock.

Said her name was Bambi and I said, "Well that's a coincidence darlin',

'cause I was just thinkin' about skinnin' you like a deer."

Well she smiled, had about as much teeth as a Jack-O-Lantern,

and I went on to tell her how I would wear her face like a mask

as I do my little kooky dance.

And then she told me to shush.

I guess she could sense my desperation.

'Course, it's hard to hide a hard-on when you're dressed like Minnie Pearl.

 

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

Well I find it's quite a thrill

When she grinds me against her will

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

 

So, Bambi's goin' on about how she can make all my fantasies come true.

So I says, "Even this one I have where Jesus Christ

is jackhammering Mickey Mouse in the doo-doo hole

with a lawn dart as Garth Brooks gives birth to something

resembling a cheddar cheese log with almonds on Santa Claus's tummy-tum?"

Well, ten beers, twenty minutes and thirty dollars later

I'm parkin' the beef bus in tuna town if you know what I mean.

Got to nail her back at her trailer.

Heh. That rhymes.

I have to admit it was even more of a turn-on

when I found out she was doin' me to buy baby formula.

 

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

Well I find it's quite a thrill

When she grinds me against her will

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

 

Day or so had passed when I popped the clutch,

gave the tranny a spin and slid on into

The Stinky Pinky Gulp N' Guzzle Big Rig Snooze-A-Stop.

There I was browsin' through the latest issue of "Throb",

when I saw Bambi starin' at me from the back of a milk carton.

Well, my heart just dropped.

So, I decided to do what any good Christian would.

You can not imagine how difficult it is to hold a half gallon of moo juice

and polish the one-eyed gopher when your doin' seventy-five

in an eighteen-wheeler.

I never thought missing children could be so sexy.

Did I say that out loud?

 

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

Well I find it's quite a thrill

When she grinds me against her will

Yes, a lap dance is so much better when the stripper is cryin'

[droolmaster0]

yeah. It's turned into a discussion now. g'night.

[ElectricPuppy]

Is he gone yet? Man, I thought that guy'd never leave.

[Don Solaris]

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