The Audacity Works

I want single voices/programs to sound exactly the same in song mode as they do in single mode. And I want 16 of them at once. The Virus TI has been able to do this since it was first released in 2005. Stop selling me keyboards with 16 multi-parts that don't include 16 multi-effects units! If a keyboard has 16 multitimbral parts and, say, 80 effects blocks (16 parts x 5 FX each), people will just complain they can't add 10 effects each to 8 parts. It's a vicious cycle. The only way to solve it is to make oscillator, filter, envelope, LFO, and DSP allocation completely dynamic (like in a DAW), and when the user runs out of DSP, they're done, whether it's 50 stripped down parts or 3 gigantic massive parts. This whole concept of 16 parts/16 channels/16 tracks is so antiquated. The Fantom-G got the concept right, but they were too early

I'd advise not listening to every "sound major" who comes along.I'd advise not listening to any "sound major", unless they've graduated and had many hundreds of billable hours (which in my experience, is less than 5% of "sound majors"). Many studios in LA refuse to hire students from recording schools, because they tend to be snotty know-it-alls who know way less than those passionate enough about recording to learn it on their own. And you can (and should) tell the parents that the next time you see them. For what it's worth, quite a few major-label records have been recorded on Roland portable studios. A VS-2480/2400/2000 sounds better to my ears than ProTools LE systems and the earlier 888-based TDM rigs. We need more women in the industry. Don't let anyone discourage you, moongdal!

Is there a link to the shootout you mentioned where the Delta 66 sounded "positively inferior" to more expensive converters? If so, please post it because I'd love to hear the files and read how the test was performed.We didn't record anything, because the extra A/D to a CD burner or computer would skew the results. We wanted to hear the A/D/A and only the A/D/A. Everything else was analog: Percussion, bass, and vocals on a Studer 2"

Right, and a lot has changed in prosumer grade converters since then.Converter chips? Probably. But the analog circuitry before and after conversion? The Delta 66 is still available (as are other boxes in the shootout, like the RME and Metric Halo). Are you saying M-Audio may have redesigned it? It wasn't horrible-sounding, but its throughput was absolutely, positively inferior to other, more expensive boxes in the shootout. Also, doing a proper blind test is not trivial. Levels must be matched to less than 1 dB, and preferably to 0.1 dB. If that is not done then all bets are off.Agreed. But you also don't want to run a splitter cable unbalanced from a Mackie 1202 into a $6000 Apogee and then convert the results to MP3. Realtime monitoring of throughput where everything but the interface/converter is properly maintained analog is the way to do it. Otherwise, too many other factors skew (or smear) the results. There was a big debate on GearSlutz a while back about mix busses. One guy posted two files, one mixed ITB with ProTools and one through... a Dangerous 2-Bus I think? The differences between the resultant files were, of course, extremely subtle, and many analog mix bus aficionados called shenanigans. What the tester failed to take into account was how the mix bus affects the actual mix process. Certain guys (including myself) can create better and faster mixes with analog mix busses, because we're hearing what we need to hear all day, not just during the final bounce. After all, mixing is much more than throwing eight stereo stems in at unity and clicking the bounce button. Of course, it's impossible to perform a double-blind test when mixing a song from scratch. Or say you have a paint brushes A and B. A robotic arm may paint the exact same line with each brush, with identical measurements, but a professional painter may get notably, consistently better results with one but not the other. One can't say "Oh, the robot's lines were identical, therefore the brushes paint the same!"

I'm not saying every sound card sounds the same. I'm saying that every competent sound card that's not broken sounds the same.If that's true, then the vast majority of affordable audio interfaces aren't competent. It's been years, but back in my retail days, we ran a double-blind converter/audio interface shootout. Wish I could remember all the details. RME, Apogee, Mytek, Prism, PreSonus, Lynx, Metric Halo, Frontier, Alesis Masterlink, M-Audio, some 1RU Panasonic, and a couple others were patched into an API console and we were switching back and forth between the raw track on a Studer 2" through the desk and full throughput of each unit's A/D/A. None of us were asked to guess which channels were which, only which sounded better. At no time did any of us think any of the A/D/A signals were perfectly transparent. There was always a loss compared to the raw tape track. We switched from the Delta 66 to RME Hammerfalls for our Gigastudios, because the difference was that great. Panasonic sponsored the event, and admittedly, their box ended up winning the shootout. The setup was built by a friend at his studio, and he swears nothing was done to make the Panasonic sound better than the others. The shootout also caused us to order a bunch of Metric Halos, because they sounded excellent for the money. There was an audible (though slight) difference between the higher-end boxes, but the difference between the high-end and low-end boxes was very, very apparent. Furthermore, it was measurable when performing flipped-phase tests and could even be seen on the oscilloscope. Yes, the shootout was double-blind. Furthermore, there was no placebo effect from discussion, because we wrote our impressions down privately and only discussed them later. On separate occasions, we ran cable shootouts, mic shootouts, mic pre shootouts, recorder shootouts, compressor shootouts, and digital mixer shootouts. The digital mixer shootouts were extremely eye-opening, because even with everything bypassed, the sonic difference between Yamaha, Mackie, Panasonic, Tascam, Roland, and Sony boards on throughput were HUGE. And at that point, we were basically just using them as A/D/As. We never recorded our results, because the A/D on the recorder would be one of many smearing factors. I agree that public perception is often plain wrong

Below are two short files for you to identify. One was recorded through a $25 SoundBlaster X-Fi card, and the other through a $6,000 Apogee. This is one performance captured through one microphone that was split after the preamp, then sent to both converters and recorded at the same time.

The Audacity Works. Inexplicably.

BTW we are within 3-5 years of CURING diabetes- and have grown an entire pancreas from stem cells-Really? Do you have a link to some more info? My dad's diabetic.

Obama, yes on 2, no on 8. Holy {censored}, when did I become a liberal?

Customer service in large business really sucks anymore. There is no more "the customer is always right"."The customer is always right" is complete bull{censored}. Consumers are occasionally rude, irrational, clueless, greedy, defensive, conniving, or drowning in feelings of entitlement. Anyone who's ever worked in any type of service industry knows what I mean. That's not to say a company shouldn't do its very best to keep its customers happy, but I absolutely despise that phrase.

Ah. A die-hard Defender For Life. No wonder you're so unpleasant.I'd take a room full of Defenders over one Hater.

Any time I've called PreSonus, they've picked up quickly and knew their stuff. Never had any sort of 20-minute wait. They pay for the call to boot. Emails always get lost in the shuffle. I never trust them unless it's the only option.

Oh, and back on topic: One can definitely hear errors, especially with an older or cheaper CD player. I've been able to burn two CDs, one on an Imation and the other on MicroBoards (Taiyo Yuden), and can blindly tell you which CD I'm listening to (and most likely you could too). Moreover, if you're sending your master CD off for pressing, the plant will send it back to you if it contains too many errors. Taiyo Yuden brands are really the only way to go, unless you're burning one-offs for friends or whatever.

Some idiot came into my store a few years ago swearing up and down that firewire drives sounded better than IDE drives. After explaining that no, all other things being equal, drive type has no effect on audio whatsoever, he called me nothing but a "sales moron", claimed to be a top engineer and audio software designer, and started spouting a bunch of made up techno-babble terms. I offered him $100 if he could dig up any reliable information to back his claim up, and he came back two weeks later with a link to Digidesign support article suggesting that firewire performance was better than IDE. I asked "You DO know that performance isn't the same thing as sound quality, right?" He replied "Hey, don't get pissed that I proved you wrong. Where's my $100?" The only reason I post this is in the hopes that he or someone who knows him reads this. His name is Trance. He lives in Tucson, AZ. He's a complete douchebag.

you to post a link to music you've mixed or mastered. And if you choose to post again without said link, especially with critiques of mine or others' mixes, you sir are a coward. And you lose. In fact, if there isn't a link, I will literally post "You sir are a coward. And you lose." "You sir are a coward. And you lose."

Your advice on track placement... Oh wow, now I feel stupid. Htaed is obviously a fake persona.

Get real, I have no reason to hide. I didn't start a fight, I merely criticized stupidity and a bunch of losers that have accomplished absolutely nothing in music threw childish fits and tried to say I was out of line, typical mob mentality.Hmm... There are a few people here who've worked on platinum-selling records and many others do very well for themselves working full time in music production. The reactions have way more to do with the disparity between your extremely arrogant first line and (at best) confusing remainder of your post. ...then the {censored}in retard is so uneducated and unexperienced that he thinks the tracking gap reference I made, something addressed in any decent college course for music and studio production, was in reference to frequency peaks.I've been doing this for almost fifteen years, and your post was the first in which I've ever heard the term "tracking gap". Google search for "tracking gap" and mastering. Google search for "tracking gap" and recording. Google search for "tracking gap" and mixing. In two weeks I have to go into Bernie Grundman Mastering. Maybe either Bernie or Brian Gardner can clue me into this "tracking gap" term that's so often talked about in music production circles. You know I come here and see all this ignorance about mastering, I throw out a pretty popular formula...Well, it's certainly popular 'round these parts! ...and I get a bunch of nay saying nobodies ganging up on me and spitting in my face because they're bitter about how their lives and careers turned out. If they know so much, they wouldn't be here posting, they'd be too busy working and reeking the benefits of their work in the studio.You mean reaping the benefits? I suppose you're right; I should've spent more time in my studio today. Instead, I took a meeting about a six-figure production deal (and turned it down, because it was bull{censored}, just like the rest). And I filled out split sheets for this awful grade B horror film I just finished scoring. And I hung out at a studio where DJ Quik and Mike Elizondo were checking out tracks for Dre's The Detox. And I barbecued. And I watched Reservoir Dogs. And then I went home and posted this. But your post was longer. ...flat frequency does not equal muddy, too much of the wrong frequencies does.Too much 8.5k will result in a muddy-sounding mix? Interesting. A tight, close, focused reverb is hardly even noticeable when used sparingly, obviously you don't understand the concept of a little can be a lot.Sure, one could certainly add reverb at the mastering stage, but it's RARELY done at professional mastering studios, and when it is, it's always done to compensate for a bad or lifeless mix. The mastering engineer ran the bridge of that one Lenny Kravitz track through a flanger because the whole thing was really repetitive. Check the books, EQ'ing, compression/limiting, adding a hint of depth...ABSOLUTE FUNDAMENTALS of proper mastering, any decent school or even book will teach you this but according to the brilliant minds here, I'm dead wrong.Yes, of course EQ and compression are fundamentals of mastering. It's just that the way you've chosen to implement them (or at least chosen to describe said implementation) is not discussed at any decent school or in any textbook, and is not considered proper technique by commercial mastering engineers... Some of whom frequent this very forum. So here we go: Htaed, I TRIPLE DOG DARE you to post a link to music you've mixed or mastered. And if you choose to post again without said link, especially with critiques of mine or others' mixes, you sir are a coward. And you lose. In fact, if there isn't a link, I will literally post "You sir are a coward. And you lose."

Apple allows multiple core audio devices; you just have to configure them within the Audio/MIDI Setup utility.

Originally posted by Duardo And you're right, this is nothing new...I remember when the G4's first came out just over seven years ago that was supposed to be the end of Digidesign. Hell, when Steinberg first announced Nuendo, they were trying to convince my store it was the "ProTools-killer". I asked "Uh, so how'd you get around the latency issue if this thing is host-based?" They replied, "Well, latency isn't really an issue any longer. And once computers get faster, there won't be any reason for ProTools at all!" And... Many years later, nothing's changed. ...but you still can't track a four-piece band with effects and no discernable latency (although I've heard as well that on the new quad MacPros you can get pretty good performance with Apogee's Symphony system, even with plugins...Hopefully it'll be impressive enough to win me over from TDM

Originally posted by Edge100 Because it isn't a priority for DAW and plug-in developers. They have to meet demand for frills, not real, useable features. It's also because, unlike with PT HD systems, the audio drivers are not written by the same people who write the DAW and design the hardware. The recent Apogee/Apple alliance is a step in the right direction. There has been some talk about Apogee Symphony users getting very low latency (32 samples) on new MacPros, although this kinda falls apart once you start loading on the plugs. But I think this type of integration is critical if a native DAW developer wants to create a product that competes with PT HD systems. Same thing with the Steinberg/Yamaha alliance. Think about the advantage Apple has had because it makes both the software and the hardware on which the Mac runs. Granted, Apple doesn't make its own motherboards anymore, but they still are in the unique position of being able to ensure compatibility between its own software and hardware; it doesn't have to care about other OSes or processors or anything. This has resulted in a very good user experience, devoid (for the most part...I'm generalizing) of the hiccups that many (but not all) PC users have had. Microsoft has to write Windows to take into consideration a whole host of CPUs, RAM chips, video cards, printers, etc. Apple doesnt. This isn't intended to be a Mac vs. PC discussion, but I think the same dynamics are at work here. Once native DAW developers choose to join with hardware developers (and, oddly enough, Apple is both), you'll start to see great things. Until then, stick to PT if you need true low latency operation. Thanks for the confirmation. Unfortunately, Apple seems to be awfully interested in frill-type features as well, what with all this GarageBand interoperability and looping crap. Sure, it sells boxes, but it doesn't really help the pros out there. Oh well.

Originally posted by nerol1st Duende? UAD-1? You don't have to run pro tools to have dsp effects. I would love Duende mmmmm..... CPU power mainly gets used to run vsti and vst effects in cubase next to none of the power goes intoplaying the tracks themselves. Alot of this question is subjective. I would definitly not say that pro tools is the best though it's just the most common. Uh, sorry, but emphatically no. If you think all ProTools' TDM engine gives you is DSP for effects, you should really read my earlier posts in this very thread.

Originally posted by asynchro_nous Isn't this why many people (who don't have the means for a fully blown PT system) still prefer to record to a hardware multitrack recorder such as the Akai DPS24 and then port the files to the computer for editing and processing in software such as Logic, DP, Peak, etc.? Sure, although I would expect that the primary reasons some people stick with standalone HDRs is because of portability concerns or they're scared of going computer-based. I can't imagine going back to something like a DR-16 or VS-series box. Roland's VS-2480 is incredibly flexible for what it is, but it's certainly no Nuendo or Logic, as far as editing or processing is concerned. Sure, you can monitor 24 tracks and 24 inputs, all with 4-band EQ and compression with no perceptable latency, but you can't chop out a segment of audio smaller than 500ms or flip anything backwards. I guess it all comes down to what one's willing to sacrifice to save a buck.

Originally posted by ManiacManos Audacity Works is right. For now. IMHO in 2-3 years there will be no need for hardware DSP anymore. They've been saying that for years. In fact, when I first bought into TDM, people were saying to wait because "right around the corner, computer horsepower will spank ProTools". That was over eight years ago. Since then, computers have been able to run much more complicated plugins (such as convolution reverbs or physical modeling) and more of them, but the whole latency and realtime monitoring issue is still a pathetic joke. I'm really interested in why this is, as I would kill to get the performance, response, and feel of TDM in a host-based environment.

Originally posted by BrainChild I think Fairlight might want to argue this. There are a few other powerful hardware platforms still alive. Whoa. I actually just mentioned Fairlight in my last post (before reading yours). You're absolutely right; I only mentioned PARIS because it was pretty well-known in consumer MI; that is, GC sold the thing.