Members raffor Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 he doesn't really think that....thats just the only argument they have against pro-choice people. being pro-choice doesn't me you'll actually get pregnant with the intent to have an abortion......it just means that if a woman gets pregnant, she has the choice to do whats right for her. The funny thing is that people opposing pro-choice are frequently pro-war, pro-guns, and pro-death penalty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 CR: RE: the "worshipping" of George W. Bush, I don't think for a second it was the intent of the documentary to make it look like children were worshipping President Bush. The children were praying over and sending their blessings to Bush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 Um, guess what: even other right-wing types are starting to do the same thing. Let us say nothing about the Christian religion as a whole: it is how Christianity has coupled itself into politics in America. In order to be Christian, do you *have* to oppose homosexuality and abortion? Heck, in order to be Christian, do you *have* to be Republican? No, you don't have to. Yet the populist pundits are coming damn close to stating such things. James Dobson's hysterical letter on a future America with Obama is a classic point. What's "Christian" about this letter? Heck, what's "family" about this letter? This is fearmongering, plain and simple -- 100% apocalyptic politics. There are kinder and gentler Christian religions, even fundie ones, out there -- I actually think that the influence of Dobson dogma is starting to die. However, dislike of American Christianity will continue until Christian politics -- especially the anti-intellectual type, and the type too tied to rural WASP identity politics instead of the Bible -- fades to the background. No you certainly don't have to be a republican. If democrats started picking up biblical values, they'd get more of the evangelical vote as well. But I don't think they'd want that because they'd lose a ton of secular votes. Obama has said on record that on the first day in office he wants to sign up the Freedom of Choice act which effectively takes away what little the states have to say about abortion, and it's very clear he will appoint ACLU-linked people to the Supreme Court. So obviously regardless of what Dobson says or doesn't say (I don't have time to read a letter that big when I already made my mind about the subject), I also have an idea of how an Obama administration will set back Christian values in society. I happen to want to vote against such thing, I believe it's my democratic right, isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pighood Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 The funny thing is that people opposing pro-choice are frequently pro-war, pro-guns, and pro-death penalty. Yeah it IS ironic that the only choice that Pro-Choicers advocate is abortion. All others are the responsibility of Mother Government. Slay the innocent, grant voting rights to the guilty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 CR: RE: the "worshipping" of George W. Bush, I don't think for a second it was the intent of the documentary to make it look like children were worshipping President Bush. The children were praying over and sending their blessings to Bush. Well, you got that, but most people didn't - Bill Maher commented on this, a lot of the media did at the time, and that was one of the reasons that I didn't even want to see it at first. Even some dude here in this thread said he had biblical training as proof that this is what they were doing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sizzlemeister Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 I tend to think that founding Israel was a mistake in the first place but that's another thread. Why is it that for you wingnuts it's always 1939? Where is Obama's Mein Kampf? I'm talking 2008. You are talking 1939, which, if you're trying to pwn me somehow, wouldn't be the correct year to point out anyway. You leftist goons are like bricks. Obama has several books he has "authored" - although how much of each book he actually wrote is up for debate; and there are hours and hours of audio, and pages and pages of transcripts, of the things Obama has said. Obama has laid out the framework for destorying the country as we know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasonbmerrill Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 And any christian knows that we pray go God and not to things. I call BS on you having bible training, unless it's catholic training (they make tons of images and will pray to anything. Sorry if some here are catholics, but it's true... there's some catholic churches where people get into where they have literally hundreds of Rome-approved images of saints, and people pray to each and every one of them). O rly? Actually, the catholic religion is despicable to me. I dont mind the people of course, but yeah the religion is bullhonky. Fact is, you had children brainwashed into praying for George W. bush -- as if he is their saviour or something. See i think many christians dont realize that when Jesus came on the scene he kind of killed the whole "one nation blessed by god" thing, took the kingdom away from Israel, and it became a SPIRITUAL nation. When this happened, the opportunity was given for EVERYONE to be a part of it, not just the jews. therefore, nationalism is pretty much totally wrong in a christian faith because it puts one nation (where a christian might exist) above another (where another christian might exist) Jesus Doctrine extolls equality, and the spreading of his message across the ENTIRE world. NO ONE NATION IS BLESSED BY GOD ANYMORE. get it through your heads, so-called christians... you are walking contradictions. answer this: why did they need a cardboard cutout of GWB in front of them whilst they prayed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 he doesn't really think that....thats just the only argument they have against pro-choice people. being pro-choice doesn't me you'll actually get pregnant with the intent to have an abortion......it just means that if a woman gets pregnant, she has the choice to do whats right for her. You fight for the woman's right, I fight for the baby's right. That's our difference. ChristianRock, this question is for you. you talk about moral, but was it moral for Sarah Palins daughter to get pregnant out of wedlock let alone be having sex out of it. you evangelist are the first to call everyone other than you Godless, but when one of your own does something not to the standards you wanna hold us to you are quick to defend them. Last I checked, Palin's daughter isn't running for anything, and is free to make her own choices. What does this have to do with anything? I'm not a christian because I don't make mistakes. I've made plenty, and I've hurt a lot of people. I'm a Christian because I came to Jesus and made him my Lord and was forgiven of my mistakes. Which I still do make. Hopefully not as much as before, but certainly I still make mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yoozer Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 Obama has laid out the framework for destorying the country as we know it. See you in 4 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sizzlemeister Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 Let's apply Occam's Razor here and take an intelligent guess: http://volokh.com/posts/1216451854.shtml It was clear what Hitler intended long before he came to power. Likewise, I think it's also pretty clear what Obama intends. I can't believe I'm actually engaging this absurd argument. Please bow out, then. The Sturmabteilung awaits you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members akliner Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 said he had biblical training as proof that this is what they were doing... That's not the intent of the filmmaker, in my opinion. Why fault the film for others' reactions? That's like my faulting the Bible for the Westboro Baptist Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members raffor Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 Yeah it IS ironic that the only choice that Pro-Choicers advocate is abortion. All others are the responsibility of Mother Government. Slay the innocent, grant voting rights to the guilty. I think pro-choice is more than just killing cell blobs, it is giving a person control over themselves. It is not that somebody tells you not to get surgery to cut out some cancer cells when this improves your life??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasonbmerrill Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 You fight for the woman's right, I fight for the baby's right. That's our difference. my belief is that a baby exists upon conception. It is a belief that is a religious one, that i feel is based on the Bible. however, scientifically there is (as of yet) no way to really prove when life begins, no? so how can you possibly force this belief upon people who dont share your view of god? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Delicious Lamprey Problem Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 CR is a self-proclaimed evangelist (I'm not criticizing, just reminding). Arguing is going to be futility 101, folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 That's not true, CR. Anyone, regardless of the religion they subscribe to, is capable of being materialistic, and does not understand, appreciate and/or respect the greater truth. I guarantee you there are people of your faith who prayed to win a football game, or the lotto. There's a point where dogma becomes irrelevant and "religion", or more precisely "God", transcends the shackles of the human capability to comprehend. I was making a distinction between interceding to God in someone's favor (I've seen people making a board with people's pictures so they wouldn't forget who they are praying for), and praying to a person instead of God. I think everybody knows catholics pray to people, not just God. Just not living people like Bush, they have to be Rome-approved saints. I know catholics who only pray to God, by the way, and in that way they are more in line with the bible. But catholic doctrine does teach that people can and should be encouraged to pray to Mary and the saints. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just pointing out the differences between the Roman Catholic church and the evangelical churches. Evangelical churches were portrayed in "Jesus Camp", not catholic churches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hookie Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 I think this thread illustrates how so many people tend to make complete generalizations and paint everyone in a group with one stroke of the brush. First, I attend an Evangelical Free Church. I play all three services most weekends. When I don't, I attend. I have NOT ONCE heard our pastor make any reference to either candidate or that one is right or wrong. He has never mentioned either candidate by name or referrenced them in anyway. He HAS stated that it is important to pray for whoever leads this country and has acknowledged all the tough times in the coutry at this time. I'm afraid most of our viewing public has this distorted image that christians - whether you want to call them born again, Jesus freaks, evangelicals, whatever, all have the same EXTREME RIGHT viewpoints. This is simply not the case. How can you base your opinion, sometimes part or completely, by what you see on TV or read in the papers? Most of the "evengelicals" preaching on TV are a bit 'out there' in terms of what the majority of christians believe, etc. They are necassarily representative of the christian pastors out there. So, the pastor at my "extreme conservative" Evangelical Free Church is preaching about praying for all our leaders, we have Obama attending and being in some type of relationship with the pastor of his church for some 20 years, who spews lots of political talk into his messages. And that's okay? We're not concerned about this? We can only say it's better than the crazy extreme right evangelicals? Hmmm...something isn't right here... I am not totally a McCain supporter, though I will vote for him. I don't understand how so many can miss so much about Obama. How can one question the inexperience of Palin, who is running for VICE President, yet IGNORE the inexperience of Obama, who is running for PRESIDENT?? How long has Obama been in political office?? What has he really done?? What is his record? How do we really know where he stands on issues?? We certainly can't look at much of his voting record, because there is so LITTLE!! We are suppose to believe he will make such good choices and somehow make the USA this great country again?? Simply by believing in CHANGE?? What has he really said? Well, for one, spread the wealth. Do you all really understand what this means?? Look at other countries that are run with this idea. The GOVERNMENT takes money from people who have more and give it to the prople who don't have much. Then everyone is equal. Then you have people withdrawing from hard work because it doesn't matter anyway. Unfortuantely, we, or least some of us, see this in our present welfare system today in this country. What about his health care plan?? It would be similar to Canada's. How many know this? How many know that Canada's system has failed terribly. People have to wait MONTHS to get MRI's, surgeries, etc. Even if they can pay for it thenselves, they MUST WAIT. Go ahead and research it a bit. People come to the US from Canada to get medical services they can't get without waiting MONTHS in Canada. There is no easy way to deal with the health care issue, nor with any other issue facing this country. To be so shallow in thinking a "change" is all that's needed is naive and ignorant of history. JMHO, flame away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members droolmaster0 Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 Well I have a belief that people choose where they will go. And I have the hope that everybody I talk to will eventually reach out to God's extended hand, even if it's just before their last breath, and even if it's because they thought "well I guess I have absolutely nothing to lose". Still, if it's an opinion that doesn't get forced on anyone, I don't think anyone should be offended. All religion would have to be prohibited if that was the case (and people would be offended at that idea, too). btw - now that I really learned to appreciate your sense of humor underlined in your comments, between the points you make, I actually look forward to having a conversation with you. If I believed that *I* had to do you harm for whatever reason I believed you deserved it, then you would be completely right in saying I should have no right to express such belief. It's not the case though, I'm sure you can see that. According to the bible, I'm supposed to be nice and if possible serve and help those who are unbelievers, and be friends with them, so that they will see the love of Christ, and so that people won't have the wrong idea of who God is. If what I was saying was that I wish certain people to go to hell, that would be offensive too. But as I said above, I don't wish that anyone goes to hell. I know you'll say, "well but you say anyone who doesn't agree with you goes to hell and that's offensive". I'm not the originator of the belief, so it's not me or christians you'd be disagreeing with - I believe it's God in human form who gave us this doctrine. So he would be the one to come up to and say "hey, I don't agree that I have to agree with you to go to heaven". Who knows, it might be the start of a good conversation Look - I'm only trying to get you to understand why people such as myself would be offended if you tell us we are going to hell, whether this is cloaked in your religious beliefs or not, or whether you hope that jesus will find us one day or not. I've given up on arguing 'the facts' with you - but I'm just trying to explain to you that if you go through life expressing these beliefs of yours, people will be offended. I believe rightfully, but that's not the argument that I'm trying to have. You seem puzzled as to why this would be so, and I'm trying to get you to see your beliefs in the context of other beliefs that lump people in categories that are inferior/evil/etc. I don't accept your literal interpretation of the bible, so the fact that you protest your sincerity means nothing to me, except that you really believe as you do. And since I take great exception to your underlying religious beliefs, that plays no part in my reaction to what you say. Similarly, I don't care whether a nazi tells me that he has come to his beliefs through a great spiritual conviction. It doesn't matter. Note that I'm not comparing you to a nazi - I'm just trying to apply Occam's razor (which he has generously lent to me for this occasion) to all of this underlying jesus/bible/christian stuff that just complicates this. You believe stuff, and express stuff that others find offensive, and you should try harder to understand why this is so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 Last time we had a thread that went this way, Paulo had horrendous menstrual cramps and Gus had to rush to the store to buy a bottle of Tylenol and a supa-size pack of Maxi Pads. Maybe we should stop now before The Moderator Summoning Ritual is complete? You're no fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasonbmerrill Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 (I've seen people making a board with people's pictures so they wouldn't forget who they are praying for), what?!?!?! how could you possibly FORGET who you are praying for??? This is roman style, babylonian style, pagan leader worship, plain and simple. Read up on it. tell me, as a person who is suppposed to follow the bible explicitly, where in the bible does it tell us to make a picture of someone and pray for them to it?!?!? I think the problem with people such as you is you think you have the monopoly on the knowledge of the bible, but little do you know that there are people with knowledge that DONT subscribe to your man-made tenants but who are just as willing to show you as ignorant to the rest of the world, as you divide and distort biblical belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sizzlemeister Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 however, scientifically there is (as of yet) no way to really prove when life begins, no? so how can you possibly force this belief upon people who dont share your view of god? Hi. What do you feel about global warming (or cooling, depending on the election year)? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members droolmaster0 Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 I think this thread illustrates how so many people tend to make complete generalizations and paint everyone in a group with one stroke of the brush. First, I attend an Evangelical Free Church. I play all three services most weekends. When I don't, I attend. I have NOT ONCE heard our pastor make any reference to either candidate or that one is right or wrong. He has never mentioned either candidate by name or referrenced them in anyway. He HAS stated that it is important to pray for whoever leads this country and has acknowledged all the tough times in the coutry at this time. I'm afraid most of our viewing public has this distorted image that christians - whether you want to call them born again, Jesus freaks, evangelicals, whatever, all have the same EXTREME RIGHT viewpoints. This is simply not the case. How can you base your opinion, sometimes part or completely, by what you see on TV or read in the papers? Most of the "evengelicals" preaching on TV are a bit 'out there' in terms of what the majority of christians believe, etc. They are necassarily representative of the christian pastors out there. So, the pastor at my "extreme conservative" Evangelical Free Church is preaching about praying for all our leaders, we have Obama attending and being in some type of relationship with the pastor of his church for some 20 years, who spews lots of political talk into his messages. And that's okay? We're not concerned about this? We can only say it's better than the crazy extreme right evangelicals? Hmmm...something isn't right here... I am not totally a McCain supporter, though I will vote for him. I don't understand how so many can miss so much about Obama. How can one question the inexperience of Palin, who is running for VICE President, yet IGNORE the inexperience of Obama, who is running for PRESIDENT?? How long has Obama been in political office?? What has he really done?? What is his record? How do we really know where he stands on issues?? We certainly can't look at much of his voting record, because there is so LITTLE!! We are suppose to believe he will make such good choices and somehow make the USA this great country again?? Simply by believing in CHANGE?? What has he really said? Well, for one, spread the wealth. Do you all really understand what this means?? Look at other countries that are run with this idea. The GOVERNMENT takes money from people who have more and give it to the prople who don't have much. Then everyone is equal. Then you have people withdrawing from hard work because it doesn't matter anyway. Unfortuantely, we, or least some of us, see this in our present welfare system today in this country. What about his health care plan?? It would be similar to Canada's. How many know this? How many know that Canada's system has failed terribly. People have to wait MONTHS to get MRI's, surgeries, etc. Even if they can pay for it thenselves, they MUST WAIT. Go ahead and research it a bit. People come to the US from Canada to get medical services they can't get without waiting MONTHS in Canada. There is no easy way to deal with the health care issue, nor with any other issue facing this country. To be so shallow in thinking a "change" is all that's needed is naive and ignorant of history. JMHO, flame away! TFTF (too funny to flame) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasonbmerrill Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 Hi. What do you feel about global warming (or cooling, depending on the election year)? Thanks! sorry, one freak at a time, please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sizzlemeister Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 I was making a distinction between interceding to God in someone's favor (I've seen people making a board with people's pictures so they wouldn't forget who they are praying for), and praying to a person instead of God. I think everybody knows catholics pray to people, not just God. Just not living people like Bush, they have to be Rome-approved saints. I know catholics who only pray to God, by the way, and in that way they are more in line with the bible. But catholic doctrine does teach that people can and should be encouraged to pray to Mary and the saints. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just pointing out the differences between the Roman Catholic church and the evangelical churches. Evangelical churches were portrayed in "Jesus Camp", not catholic churches. I see where you are coming from. This would be a different thread, then, because I think it's a technical point on Bible interpretation rather than a rational point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cydonia Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sizzlemeister Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 sorry, one freak at a time, please. Do you feel global climate change is real and caused by man? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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