akliner

If he would've acted more like that on his campaign it would've been a closer call. That was a great speech. I completely agree. The RNC made him into a monster. Also, I loved how his crowd seemed more enthusiastic for Palin than for him. That's scary. She's a divisive one.

Of course race is one of the main reasons people didn't vote for Obama. You'd have to be stunningly naive to think otherwise (and I'm a little jealous of your outlook, if that's the case)... Edit: one of the main reasons dependant upon geographic location... Actually, most of the people who identified race as a deciding factor at the exit polls voted FOR Obama...not against him.

Mr. Obama has won. California, however, voted yes on Prop 8. {censored}. Bittersweet.

So, in effect, the old testament had to be stricter because there was no opportunity of salvation at that time?

FAIL. The new covenant substituted the old covenant. It's in the bible, but apparently you only want to read some parts of it and not all of it. So why the Biblical change of heart?

Actually, I disagree. The majority should not have the right to suppress minorities, or take away rights. the majority should not have the right to deny people (blacks, christians, muslims, jews, women, gays, etc) rights that they are born with and deserve. Of course, CR has the right to believe anything he wants, but there are fundamental differences between views which respect human rights and those that don't, and those which are based on logic and humanitarian reasoning and tradition, and those that are based on kneejerk readings of the bible. Oh come on, I was obviously being escapist in the guise of diplomacy.

He said that to him, babies can be killed all day long, and that he will only value human life when people start giving the same value to animals as they give to humans. I'm not making this up. There was a greek philosophy belief system that defended exactly that - that everything was good, including death, and that a person dying was only as bad as a fly dying. I was trying to remember what it was, but couldn't. I get your point, CR. And we know, in our heart of hearts, that we will disagree, FUNDAMENTALLY, on many things. But it's OK. That's what makes America great. We may each take a node of moral superiority for our viewpoints, but at the end of the day I have no more right than you to believe my views should be expressed into laws.

. But since you don't consider human life to have any value, I guess it doesn't really matter to you. Oh. Watch out for statements like that. They discredit your whole "I'm an oppressed Christian" angle.

You're still dodging the question. Once you make my vote unacceptable and yours acceptable, you are saying only people with certain points of view should vote, and you basically end democracy. No. I'm just suggesting personal opinions on morality should not have an over-reaching influence on legislation at large. Instead, I support public health initiatives and legislation that benefit everyone in my nation. Making abortion illegal will be bad for the health of women. Thousands of women have died in the hands of back alley abortionists. Women will continue to have abortions, regardless of legality. I say that they should be done in clean and safe environments that are inspected and under the purview of certified medical professionals.

You dodged the question. The question is, how can my vote force my opinion while yours doesn't, if your opinion (regarding abortion, in this case) to me is unacceptable? I'm not dodging any question. Let me make it simpler for you: 1.You believe abortion is wrong. With my legislation, you don't have to get one. You are free to believe abortion is wrong and a disgusting waste of life that God gives each and every one of us. 2.I believe choice is right. With your legislation, nobody can get one ever. Ever. Because of YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS, nobody can ever have an abortion...regardless of how THEY feel.

How is that different than you "forcing" your views when you vote? This isn't forcing anything, it's democracy. If you say I'm forcing something with my vote and you're not forcing anything with yours, you're just being a hypocrite - and I don't think that's the case, so please explain what you're trying to say once and for all... I'm honestly confused how you can tell me what I'm supposed to vote for so I don't force my views upon you? The difference is that I support choice. In the case of abortion, being pro-choice means that individuals can make their mind about their beliefs. If you think abortion is an abomination, you have the right to not get one! If you had your way with the abortion legislation, you are removing the choice from millions of Americans who don't have the same beliefs as you-- effectively forcing them to live a certain way because of your beliefs. (this next point is illustrative, not personal, because I already know your feelings on gay marriage) In the case of gay marriage, I support the rights for gays to marry. In my ideal reality, if you're not gay, or don't support gay marriage, you can choose not go get married to a man! However, people who want to ammend the constitution to disallow gay marriage in no uncertain terms are seeking to take away the (existing or potential) rights of others who are different from them-- effectively forcing them to live a certain way because of their beliefs. You have to see the difference here, Christian.

This thread is actually just an incredible postcount-booster. Nothing more. NOTHING!. I think you mean Hai Guyz!

It's called voting and democracy. I thought that's what voting was for? To make my voice heard? Certainly. But please make no mistake when you say you're not forcing your beliefs in this context. That is simply untrue.

Because that would be like me agreeing to making theft and other kinds of murder legal. To me it's the same principle. "As long as I'm not the one being stolen or killed, go steal and kill all you want" would be the same as "I'm no longer a baby, so kill all the babies you want". So you are in the business of forcing legislation that matches your religious and moral beliefs? ...just to clarify.

This is an issue where no compromise will ever be reached because of two conflicting fundamental ideologies which classify a human "being" differently. I understand that there is a large segment of people who genuinely feel abortion is murder. I even understand why they would want legislation protecting a woman's right to choose to be overturned. However, under current legislation, those people can choose to NOT have an abortion. Since you claim, CR, that you're not in the business for "forcing" others to see things your way, why are you not content with the public's ability to choose not to have an abortion?

Why do you want to force your beliefs on the rest of us? This makes a whole lot of sense.

Do you feel global climate change is real and caused by man? I feel the global climate change is real and man has probably accelerated it through pollution. I also see absolutely NO PROBLEM with industries' taking stronger measures to make less of an impact on the environment.

said he had biblical training as proof that this is what they were doing... That's not the intent of the filmmaker, in my opinion. Why fault the film for others' reactions? That's like my faulting the Bible for the Westboro Baptist Church.

CR: RE: the "worshipping" of George W. Bush, I don't think for a second it was the intent of the documentary to make it look like children were worshipping President Bush. The children were praying over and sending their blessings to Bush.

So secular geniuses are forcing abortion on me by THEIR vote. I sees. I don't think we have forced abortions in this country.

How do you know whether a I saw it or not? You just assume, like everybody always assumes stuff, I'd think you'd know better because you of all people always complain of stereotyping. I saw a good part of it. Couldn't stomach the whole thing. GWB appointed two supreme court justices that would overturn Roe v. Wade if they were given the chance. You think that's not doing anything? It's doing more than anyone has done since 1973. You are completely uninformed. Complete and total cop-out response. If given the chance? You have to realize that. What about Jesus Camp turned your stomach? There was no leading. There were no interviews. It was purely documentation. What about that was so reprehensibly left-leaning? And about stereotyping...assumption is not stereotype. I had asked you if you saw the film a few posts ago. You didn't say you had, but instead went on to suggest reasons why you wouldn't see it. That was deliberately misleading on your end. Not that it really matters. We're only debating ideas here...not ourselves as individuals. I think all of this is healthy! And i luvvs the CR. (Also CR, I'm not uninformed, thnx)

LOL. This makes me seriously Jesus Camp was made by Nancy Pelosi's daughter. Surely she didn't have any bias I am an evangelical christian. I would have voted for Bush if I could. I would vote for McCain if I could. What are all the curse words people can throw at me for that? I'd do it for my conscience, too. I believe all who voted for pro-abortionist candidates will have to answer to murder one day before the throne of God. In other words, if democrats would not go for policies that go completely against christian moral and belief, maybe they could blame evangelicals for not voting for them. It's like the Bacon Party asking for the vegan vote, if I can use that as a comparison, and then getting mad when they don't get their vote. Have you seen it? NO. It is without bias. Because, sir, secular people know how to acknowledge and appreciate things without evoking their own inherent personal beliefs. Let me ask you this...GWB never tried to overturn Roe v. Wade. He promsied to while he was campaigning, but he made no attempt to once in office. Isn't he just as guilty as the people who support choice?

It's always about "Jesus hatemongers", "pseudo-christian idiots" and all that stuff. Every leftist I know blames evangelical christians for 8 years of Bush administration, and thinks that literal bible belief is what makes Palin an abomination (I also believe the bible literally, am pro-life, etc). But go on, I guess my attempt to derail the thread has failed The Christian Right has mobilized voting habits for conservatives. This is true. They are, demographically, the ones that got Bush elected both times. They're actually proud of it. Go watch Jesus Camp. It's actually non-biased...I promise.

Well, as a bible-believing evangelical Christian I believe 95% of the people in this thread would probably like me to lie dead somewhere. At least from reading the 8 pages in this thread, it seems like there's a lot of gnashing of teeth going on against christianity here. (Might as well bring in the underlying theme of christianity which is present in the election, and make this whole thread implode ) I really see no evidence of this. I have nothing against Christianity-- or any religion to that end. I have a problem with what people do with religious license. I think it's absurd that you keep saying most people here are out to get you and would like to see you dead because you're a Christian. Absolutely absurd. Also, I don't think religious was brought up more than a handful of times in this thread.