Phil O'Keefe Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Pedal purchaser: Help - can you give me killer tones? Builder: Sure. Here. $200. Purchaser: $200 for a metal case and a few dozen components? Builder: Okay. $45 for the components, $75 for my overhead, a good chunk for the retailer (who usually discounts), and the rest for knowing how to hook those $45 worth of parts together to make them sound this righteous. (Even if, as in this case, that happens to be by cloning some obscure MIC pedal you've never heard of before. ) Every time you buy a pedal, it's a bit of a gamble unless you've tried it in person first. Most good stores have decent return policies - as long as you're a good human and take reasonable care of the stuff before you return it; make sure of their policies before you buy. If you like it, then great! If not, you can return it and try something else. But shipping can get expensive - which is why you want to try to do you research first. Ask the forum. Listen to the demos, read the manufacturer's site, read reviews ( ) and ask current owners what they like - and dislike - about the pedal. Depending on what it is and how it sounds, I don't think spending a couple hundred on a pedal is unreasonable. As far as the killer $30 MIC pedal - sure, they're out there. I had a TS-5 once that, with a few mods, was an insanely good sounding 'Screamer. I gave it to a friend of mine who loves TS overdrives, and I think it's held up, but it's a TS-5. The case is plastic, the switches were suspect and tended to not last very long, and they looked like something that should be painted up like a ladybug and put in a kid's toybox. But I had about $30 into that MIT pedal, and it sounded rippin'. So, some guy took an obscure $30 MIC circuit, cloned it (or based his pedal off of it) and turned people on to his version of it for considerably more? If it's that cool sounding, then call it a finder's fee. Plus, I would hope the more modern version would be better built, have better quality components, TB, etc. etc. As far as the Dumble comparisons, I don't even know where to begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChrisFFTA Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 So, some guy took an obscure $30 MIC circuit, cloned it (or based his pedal off of it) and turned people on to his version of it for considerably more? If it's that cool sounding, then call it a finder's fee. Plus, I would hope the more modern version would be better built, have better quality components, TB, etc. etc. As far as the Dumble comparisons, I don't even know where to begin. It would appear that the builder took said $30 pedals repainted the housing, scratched the makers name off the board, replaced one or two pots, gooped it and then reassembled. Very different to using the $30 as a base to work from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aman74 Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 And just like the Alpha thread on TGP, I admit that I am greatly swayed when someone like BobbyD tells me that the DBD is the best delay he's ever played. YouTube isn't sufficient, and I can't hear them in person. So trusting my fellow forumites is an important factor in my decision-making, and right now that has been weakened.You cannot dispute that over 35 pages of posts on TGP confirmed that based on sound alone they were in the same league. I believe they were stating their honest opinions. And as a pedalmaker yourself you know how and why pedals can sound the same and yet cost either $20 or $200. Man, so much to comment on, but I'll try to keep it short. So many folks are operating under the assumption that more expensive is going to be better. You're talking about The Emperors New Clothes, which is very correct, but you're contradicting yourself a bit here, but I see why as I think you're learning something about your own perceptions here as well, which I commend you for. On one hand you're realizing that the value of opinions about tone related products is swayed by more than just tone and on the other hand you're pointing out that honest opinions were given yet you seem to know that the results would have differed had they knew it was a 30 dollar pedal inside. I apologize if I misread you here. The thing is that people can't seem to understand that, in most cases, the cost of the item doesn't have to dictate tone. The higher priced boutique pedals may have better tone, but it's not (mostly) because of the cost of the guts. It's because the maker has spent his/her time tweaking, choosing parts and probably has a good ear for tone and what the market wants. Often times a maker may even choose a cheaper part for a certain tone and even when choosing a more expensive part, we're usually talking less than a buck difference, sometimes more, but that's usually for parts that affect build quality, not tone. Boutique pedals cost what they do because of economies of scale, not because of the parts. When people bitch about how a pedal cost 150 bucks and only has 30's worth in parts....I'd like to see them write up a business plan and try to do better. Some are priced ridiculously, but not for the most part. You mention value when talking about Hermida. Kind of a bad example, because even setting aside the boutique pricing argument, if he did get ripped off and the circuit was unique then you can't really fault him can you? You're saying that he got ripped off so you can just go get it cheaper now, that's not right. If you're just saying that most subjective opinions are that you can get a similar quality of sound for cheaper then yeah there's a point there, but don't confuse the two. Besides, like I said, you're not paying for tone, you're paying for a small operation, good customer service, quality control, etc... There's no magic in these boxes. No voodoo, mojo, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aman74 Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 For the most part, ALL pedals are pretty much a handful of components that cost $15 when purchased in sufficient quantities, but I'm willing to pay someone for their labor and ideas. But, yeah - a $20 pedal can sound just as good as a $200 pedal, the problem most people on this forum seem to have is equating $$$ with quality/tone/function and that simply is not the case. A $3000 Gibson Les Paul does not sound $2500 "better" than an Epiphone. Some things just have value for what they are...or pretend to be. I should have just read the whole thread first. You pretty much summed it up...and much less verbose than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amp_surgeon Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 So, some guy took an obscure $30 MIC circuit, cloned it (or based his pedal off of it) and turned people on to his version of it for considerably more? If it's that cool sounding, then call it a finder's fee. Plus, I would hope the more modern version would be better built, have better quality components, TB, etc. etc. As far as the Dumble comparisons, I don't even know where to begin. Based on the pics that have been posted, it looks like "some guy" bought a bunch of those $30 MIC pedals, swapped or added a few components, scraped off or gooped over the identifying silkscreen legends on the PCB, and refinished the enclosure with his own brand label. No cloning. No derivative work. No value added with better build quality or components. A clear case of putting lipstick on the pig and marking it up $140. I'd put this in the same class as buying a First Act guitar from Toys R Us, changing the tone cap, and slapping a Fender Strat logo on the headstock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChrisFFTA Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Based on the pics that have been posted, it looks like "some guy" bought a bunch of those $30 MIC pedals, swapped or added a few components, scraped off or gooped over the identifying silkscreen legends on the PCB, and refinished the enclosure with his own brand label. No cloning. No derivative work. No value added with better build quality or components. A clear case of putting lipstick on the pig and marking it up $140. I'd put this in the same class as buying a First Act guitar from Toys R Us, changing the tone cap, and slapping a Fender Strat logo on the headstock.see my post 2 up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scolfax Posted June 22, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 I get it. Thanks for the thoughtful responses guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr.Picklebottom Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 DONT MIND THE CAPS THE CAPSLOCK IS BROKEN BUT THIS IS PRETTY MUCH MY IMPRESSION OF BOUTIQUE PEDALS ANYWAY. NOT JUST TGP, SO MANY PEOPLE HERE HEAR RETAIL COST, NOT SOUND. MIGHT AS WELL POST BANK STATEMENTS RATHER THAN MUSIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoboPimp Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Its tempting to me to read this whole saga as confirmation of my long-held suspicion that all of you guys who obsess over one low/medium gain OD vs another low/medium gain OD are {censored}ing nutjobs. it's worth it to me if it does what needs doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dkerwood Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 I just don't understand how they seriously thought that they could get away with it. Information today is never more than a dozen keystrokes away, and the information will ALWAYS get out. I'm simply shocked that they would expect people NOT to open up the pedal and look inside. Why on earth wouldn't they just clone the circuit on their own boards so they'd at least have a leg to stand on? I see a couple of scenarios: 1) They've been rebranding pedals all along, and just finally got caught (some have pointed out ridiculous similarities between their boost pedal and the BBE). This does seem reasonable, although with every pedal model released, you exponentially increase the chances of getting caught. 2) For some reason, they decided that they didn't want (or were unable) to produce this pedal correctly. Maybe they lost a PCB manufacturer or something. Maybe some of the Alpha Drives were made right, but then a devastating problem forced them to take drastic measures. The biggest point supporting this to me is the fact that the AD is the only one of their six pedals made in a different enclosure. This still doesn't make their methods correct, but at least would shine some light on why they did it. 3) This was a deliberate act, simply to prove the intellectual point that hype and the dollar sign outweighs everything else. Don't get me wrong- the Joyo is a great sounding overdrive on demos, and I'm thinking of getting one just to check it out... but there's no way that it would get anything other than the Bad Monkey treatment due mainly to its price point. This seems incredibly likely due to the ridiculous nature of the deception- as if nobody would notice the obvious scraping away of the logo or hand soldering of new components next to machine soldered ones? If they were a start up company, I'd believe this unequivocally. Since they're a relatively popular boutique builder, however, they do stand to lose a lot of credibility and business simply to make point- that a cheap pedal can be "on par" with a high dollar pedal if simply dolled up (a point which, in itself, hurts their own customer base). So in the end, I don't know what to believe. The sheer level of stupidity in FB is just ridiculous. In fact, I still tend toward #3 because I don't think anyone could believe their boutique customer base to be that ignorant and uninformed. One of the first things I do anymore is open up the pedal to see if it has any internal pots, and I'm not a boutique guy by a longshot. They HAD to have known it would be exposed... and if I understand correctly, it was exposed within a few weeks of REAL people (not FB representatives feeding the hype) getting the pedal in their hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nostalgis Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 For the most part, ALL pedals are pretty much a handful of components that cost $15 when purchased in sufficient quantities, but I'm willing to pay someone for their labor and ideas. But, yeah - a $20 pedal can sound just as good as a $200 pedal, the problem most people on this forum seem to have is equating $$$ with quality/tone/function and that simply is not the case. A $3000 Gibson Les Paul does not sound $2500 "better" than an Epiphone. Some things just have value for what they are...or pretend to be. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nostalgis Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 DONT MIND THE CAPS THE CAPSLOCK IS BROKEN BUT...One of these days I might just sig that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scolfax Posted June 22, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 1) They've been rebranding pedals all along.2) For some reason, they decided that they didn't want (or were unable) to produce this pedal correctly.3) This was a deliberate act, simply to prove the intellectual point that hype and the dollar sign outweighs everything else. The simplest answer is usually the correct one. I have no doubt it's #1. And only one person would have to be ignorant - The FB guy had no clue that the exposure (to him, "if" it happened) would be so obvious and so damning. Put it this way: If that *one guy* in the homebrew forum hadn't made the connection between the two pedals we would not be talking about it at all right now. To you and I, that was going to happen eventually. The FB guy probably thought it would never happen. I would be stunned if FB were still selling pedals in meaningful quantity same time next year. If they do, I predict, they will have renamed the company. BTW, as far as the BBE connection goes, I think G&L is also selling a rebranded BBE boost pedal. Especially after this, I don't think it's worth risking the G&L brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dkerwood Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 The simplest answer is usually the correct one. I have no doubt it's #1. And only one person would have to be ignorant - The FB guy had no clue that the exposure (to him, "if" it happened) would be so obvious and so damning. Put it this way: If that *one guy* in the homebrew forum hadn't made the connection between the two pedals we would not be talking about it at all right now. To you and I, that was going to happen eventually. The FB guy probably thought it would never happen. After a little more digging, I think you're right. I found this:"Chubb Up" Fuzz"Rock Crusher" DistortionAnd while his other three pedals are not obvious Joyo rebrands, I suspect that he found some other company that he dug and rebranded them. Too sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheWaker43 Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Alright, I get bored at work, so I have read pretty much every post on this, here and FSB.org, (lame, I know). I also spend some time at TGP. Did all the hype start in that huge thread tiled something like "The latest D-style pedal"? I tend to skip over Dumble or Klon threads. Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scolfax Posted June 22, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Did all the hype start in that huge thread tiled something like "The latest D-style pedal"? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BryanMichael Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Can I point out that maybe, just maybe "Freakish Blues" is an actual resaler and that they simply had the Joyo pedals repainted and re-badged FOR THEM at the Joyo factory (and gooped)? So that there really is nothing wrong or unethical to what they are doing since "re-badging" has been going on for decades since the dawn of IMPORTING. For example, back in the day, if you took apart certain RADIO SHACK MICROPHONES, you would find the components branded....SHURE! Take apart a Realistic SYNTH from back in the 70's and it was all a.....MOOG! But no one complained about those, you know why? The Radio Shack versions were CHEAPER instead of more expensive, in that case it was the big BRAND that you paid for, as the items were exactly the same! Illusions are painfully shattered right where discovery starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members erksin Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Can I point out that maybe, just maybe "Freakish Blues" is an actual resaler and that they simply had the Joyo pedals repainted and re-badged FOR THEM at the Joyo factory (and gooped)? So that there really is nothing wrong or unethical to what they are doing since "re-badging" has been going on for decades since the dawn of IMPORTING. For example, back in the day, if you took apart certain RADIO SHACK MICROPHONES, you would find the components branded....SHURE! Take apart a Realistic SYNTH from back in the 70's and it was all a.....MOOG! But no one complained about those, you know why? The Radio Shack versions were CHEAPER instead of more expensive, in that case it was the big BRAND that you paid for, as the items were exactly the same!Illusions are painfully shattered right where discovery starts. Then why scratch out the mfg name on the board and tell people you were making them in your basement in the good ol' US of A..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Snowden Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Except the claim they're handmade in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eti Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 The Realistic Moog said "BY MOOG MUSIC" right on its control panel. It was a major selling point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BryanMichael Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Then why scratch out the mfg name on the board and tell people you were making them in your basement in the good ol' US of A..?Oh! I didn't know they were doing that, I thought they were just a different brand. Then, yeah - that's bull{censored}.As for the MOOG - I thought the one we used to have in school didn't say MOOG on it at all, only Realistic- but memory doesn't serve. I do know that the microphones didn't say SHURE on them on the outside... only the inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scolfax Posted June 22, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Oh! I didn't know they were doing that, I thought they were just a different brand. Not only scratching out the name. Gooping the board and soldering on $1 worth of components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lucid origami Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Its tempting to me to read this whole saga as confirmation of my long-held suspicion that all of you guys who obsess over one low/medium gain OD vs another low/medium gain OD are {censored}ing nutjobs. Seriously, even if you can hear a difference between these types of pedals who gives a {censored}? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 DONT MIND THE CAPS THE CAPSLOCK IS BROKEN BUT THIS IS PRETTY MUCH MY IMPRESSION OF BOUTIQUE PEDALS ANYWAY. NOT JUST TGP, SO MANY PEOPLE HERE HEAR RETAIL COST, NOT SOUND. MIGHT AS WELL POST BANK STATEMENTS RATHER THAN MUSIC.YOU MIGHT WANT TO GET THAT FIXED SOON, LEST I THINK YOU'RE SHOUTING AT ME. I BANNED SOMEONE LAST NIGHT FOR TELLING ME TO "SHUT MY BALD HEAD," SO IMAGINE WHAT I MIGHT DO TO SOMEONE I THOUGHT WAS YELLING AT MY BALD HEAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amp_surgeon Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Has the company responded to these charges, or are they ignoring them? Sure, they responded. They threatened to sue TGP if the threads containing the derogatory remarks weren't taken down. TGP complied, but the threads and remarks are still visible via Google cache. See the links in the opening post. If you browse through those cached thread pages, you'll see the owner of FB defending his actions by saying that JoYo had ripped off their designs (interesting accusation, since JoYo has apparently been making their pedals for two years longer than FB has been in existence), and that they were involved in litigation to stop it. Curious, since JoYo's PCB's are not modified in any way and contain JoYo's silkscreen legend, while FB's PCB's appear to have originally had JoYo's legend, but an attempt was made to deface or cover the legend by scratching the silkscreen or gooping over it. These shenanigans would be unnecessary if FB were licensing JoYo's products as an OEM distributor. It would also seem counterproductive for an OEM licensee to publicly accuse their source of IP theft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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