Members Fender&EHX4ever Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 I just recently moved into a rental home that was built in 1930. The outlets in my amateur studio are ungrounded. My surge protectors tell me so. Not much chance that the owners are going to pay to have the infrastructure fixed. Being in Florida, the lightning capital of the US, I am very careful to unplug my surge protector strips when not in use, during storms, yadda yadda yadda. I also know to avoid working off of more than one outlet at a time, especially when playing guitar and singing into a mic. Been there, done that, and thanked the heavens that I didn't fry. But what about working off of a single outlet? Are there any rules that I don't know about that I need to be aware of? For example, is it safe to plug my computer, soundcard, amp, and pedals all into the same outlet without turning myself into a giant capacitor? Is it safe to plug my amp and PA into the same outlet and play guitar and sing into a mic without electrocuting myself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members goodhonk Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 do not play your guitar and touch the ceiling fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fender&EHX4ever Posted December 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 do not play your guitar and touch the ceiling fan. But should I touch the ceiling fan even when I'm not playing the guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members goodhonk Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 i would advise not to touch anything wired to the house while connected to something else wired to the house. you will become a ground loop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members oinkbanana Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 working out of one outlet is fine as long as your fuse can handle what's pulling...(ie don't try to run a 2000 watt PA + 1000watt bass amp & two other full 100watt guitar stacks & ect...) as for a ground, you can just run any wire from your 3rd prong to any plumbing in your house Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fender&EHX4ever Posted December 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 as for a ground, you can just run any wire from your 3rd prong to any plumbing in your house Really? That works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fender&EHX4ever Posted December 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 i would advise not to touch anything wired to the house while connected to something else wired to the house. you will become a ground loop. This sounds like an impossible expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members goodhonk Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 Really? That works? fwiu, that is what many people will do, but it isn't considered safe. i believe fire can be the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fender&EHX4ever Posted December 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 fwiu, that is what many people will do, but it isn't considered safe. i believe fire can be the result. I just Google'd it, and there are definitely some potential problems. First, you can't always trust that all the plumbing is metal. Second, you can risk electrocuting your plumber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members goodhonk Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 [video=youtube;VZ4mz-khXIo] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 No worries there. My PA is only 100w, and I don't really use it much anyways. My most powerful amp is only 35w. Those are their OUTPUT power specs - I guarantee they draw a lot more than that from the wall. And that's the figure you need to be concerned with when connecting things to a single circuit - the amount of power they use, not how much they put out. As far as the ground is concerned, you can indeed run it to plumbing - IF that plumbing is conductive (no PVC pipe please!) and grounded. One of the things we studio guys will often use is what's known as "star grounding" - where everything connects to a single, common ground point. All other ground paths are eliminated in order to prevent ground loops. One of the most common sources of that "single ground point" is a copper plumbing pipe, or a dedicated copper pipe that has been pounded 10' into the ground. Just attach a grounding clamp to it, and attach the ground wire to that. When in doubt, contact an electrician. BETTER SAFE THAN DEAD! As far as your home's grounding, that's probably NOT within code, and your landlord probably is legally required to have that up to code in order to rent it to people - it's completely unsafe and a major fire (not to mention electrocution) hazard to have improperly wired outlets. If he doesn't want his property to burn down, he really should get an electrician to check it out. Also look into installing a GFI outlet. If a fault is detected, it automatically cuts the power - and could save your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 \nAs far as your home's grounding, that's probably NOT within code, and your landlord probably is legally required to have that up to code in order to rent it to people - it's completely unsafe and a major fire (not to mention electrocution) hazard to have improperly wired outlets. If he doesn't want his property to burn down, he really should get an electrician to check it out. That's what I was thinking. Do some research on rental codes and/or just ask some general questions to an electrician; you might not have to pay for anything. Your landlord might not like you. Check your lease too, make sure it wasn't a waiver of your safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members T ned Posted December 7, 2011 Members Share Posted December 7, 2011 As far as your home's grounding, that's probably NOT within code, and your landlord probably is legally required to have that up to code in order to rent it to people - it's completely unsafe and a major fire (not to mention electrocution) hazard to have improperly wired outlets. If he doesn't want his property to burn down, he really should get an electrician to check it out.Also look into installing a GFI outlet. If a fault is detected, it automatically cuts the power - and could save your life. If it was wired to code when the house was built, I don't think the owner is legally obligated to update it to today's specs. Any NEW constuction should be wired to code though (ie, an addition was recently built). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 If it was wired to code when the house was built, I don't think the owner is legally obligated to update it to today's specs. Any NEW constuction should be wired to code though (ie, an addition was recently built). You may be right, but that can vary from city to city / state to state. You might not have to retrofit it just because the codes changed. In some locales, you may have to bring it up to code when you get a new tenant. The only way to know for certain is to check the local building codes or ask a knowledgeable person (local electrician, etc.), and if it's not required, I'd at least look into getting the studio stuff on to a properly grounded outlet. Personally, I'd prefer to have the whole house done, but at least the studio, laundry, kitchen and bathroom outlets - you know, the high-risk stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fender&EHX4ever Posted December 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 You may be right, but that can vary from city to city / state to state. You might not have to retrofit it just because the codes changed. In some locales, you may have to bring it up to code when you get a new tenant. The only way to know for certain is to check the local building codes or ask a knowledgeable person (local electrician, etc.), and if it's not required, I'd at least look into getting the studio stuff on to a properly grounded outlet. Personally, I'd prefer to have the whole house done, but at least the studio, laundry, kitchen and bathroom outlets - you know, the high-risk stuff. Thanks, Phil. I was hoping you'd post. I have already asked the owners what they know about the electrical wiring in the house. I'm waiting on a response. There are GFI outlets already in the bathroom and kitchen, so I'm pretty sure they know what can and can't be done without costing them a fortune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amp_surgeon Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 A water pipe is ok for a low voltage ground, like to ground a cable TV splitter, or the ground side of an indoor ham radio aerial. Don't use it for AC power ground. It's not insulated in the walls like a wire would be. You could still potentially cause a fire or zap somebody taking a shower. The best way to fix the house wiring is to rewire with 3-conductor wire, but that means knocking out a bunch of walls. The next best solution is a ground stake near the main service box - tie the neutral (white wire) from each AC line to the ground stake. Most homes with a 2-wire electrical system are already wired this way. A typical home has two or three AC lines coming into the main service box, each 120 degrees out of phase with the others. These are usually divided among the different branch circuits through the fuse/breaker box, though a pair of lines can be combined to provide 220V for the utility room. In most places in the US you must be a licensed electrician to do this sort of stuff. Don't attempt it on your own. BTW, if you decide to use a water piper for low voltage ground be sure to use the COLD water pipe. A hot water pipe may not have a continuous path to ground once it gets to the water heater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ambient Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 Here in Japan, the standard AC outlets are only 2-prong. Though there is a separate ground wire for stuff like air conditioners. Am I gonna die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members evets618 Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 Here in Japan, the standard AC outlets are only 2-prong. Though there is a separate ground wire for stuff like air conditioners.Am I gonna die? Eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members arthurdent'd Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 electricity scares the {censored} out of me. Been zapped at a gig when I grabbed a mic, while holding my guitar strings, awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevenglass Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 where'd you move in FL? perfect chance for us to be best friends and let me try all your ehx pedals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BP90 Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 The advice in this thread horrifies me. Any old water pipe is NOT the way to ground a circuit. And a ground rod is virtually worthless if you live in an area where the earth is dry, rocky, sandy etc. Unless you are driving a rod into moist soil that will STAY moist the rod will provide too much resistance to earth and the current could possibly take another path during fault conditions. 25 Ohms or less is what we aim for, and even then you would need an expensive testing device to ensure this. The "star grounding" that Phil refers to is called "Bonding" wherein all the grounds attach at one point. First off, with an electrical system as old as the one you are describing there's a strong chance that there is no true grounding electrode being used in the building... You can check for ground rods outside, a solid copper wire clamped to the main water pipe within 5 feet of where it enters the structure and jumpered across the water meter or maybe even a ground ring.. The BEST ground that can be achieved is to attach to a "Ufer" ground, which nowadays is a piece of rebar sticking out of the concrete. This piece of rebar is required to be attached to 20 linear feet of rebar inside the concrete, creating a VERY solid ground path. There are so many opportunities for terrible mistakes to be made by unqualified people that it turns my stomach. All the grounding electrodes in the building must be bonded together to prevent multiple paths TO ground. (this is dangerous stuff) The best way to ground receptacles is to get a 12 Gauge wire from the 3rd prong of the receptacle to the ground bar in the breaker panel. You could attach it to another properly grounded 3 prong receptacle as well... Also, do not ever ever ever ever jumper from the neutral to the 3rd prong. Yes, it will show "grounded" on a tester but the risks are too high. If a neutral becomes disconnected earlier in teh circuit (including the main service neutral) there is a possibility of energizing everything that was once "grounded" Lastly, a lot of surge devices require a true ground for proper operation and protection. FYI. Good luck Sparky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BP90 Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 Sidenote: Generally the only codes that are required to be updated electrically in a rental dwelling would be GFCI protection on bathroom and kitchen counter receptacles and hardwired smoke detectors. 2 prong outlets are still "legal" in existing structures and probably will not be required to be replaced. Why? The potential for hazard is far less in a bedroom or living room than a room where a source of water is near. Be mindful of 2 prong receptacles wired "reverse polarity" as well... ugh.. theres just too much to go wrong. Call someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members goodhonk Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 ^ my advice was sound, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BP90 Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 ^ my advice was sound, no? Yep. Never, ever touch the ceiling fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SnorkelMonkey Posted December 8, 2011 Members Share Posted December 8, 2011 The advice in this thread horrifies me. Any old water pipe is NOT the way to ground a circuit. Cold water pipe has always worked for me as a ghetto earth ground. Please explain why you wouldn't recommend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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