How long did it get to you to become a good keyb player ?

dumeril7 · February 2, 2009

1) you have to be able to retain what you learn--and there is a LOT to learn. Consider this: there are 48 triads to learn right off the bat (maj, min, dim, aug). Then each has two inversions you will need to learn. Now we are at 144. Now add sevenths. 288. I will stop at sevenths. This rules out most pot smokers.

If you approach it as a by-rote memorization, then it would be like drinking from a firehose. But if you approach it from the standpoint of understanding how chords are constructed, things get a heck of a lot easier. Yeah, there are different fingerings to content with but that's overcome pretty quickly really.

3) you have to have a great sense of rhythm and timing. This rules out most white people--unless they want to play rigid classical music by metronome.

OK, that's just absurd (the bit about ruling out most white people). There are just way, way, way too many counterexamples to support that.

4) you have to have a superb ear for recognizing intervals and chord colors--especially if you want to use the piano to compose. This rules out 80% of the population if not more.

80% maybe at birth, but relative pitch can be learned. It just takes practice; there are standard drills that will have most reasonably talented people recognizing intervals in just a few weeks.

5) you have to be able to practice at least 1 or two hours every day without fail, else you will forget what you learn (just like learning a foreign language). This rules out most working adults.

On this point I agree with you. In fact, if you really want to get good, it takes more time than that, which supports your point about really needing to learn when you're a kid.

D7

Tomkeen · February 2, 2009

I will bet you anything most "good" piano players on this thread are left brained... either mechanically inclined .. or good at math... or science. Watch.

I always thought that good musicians are also good at math/science and stuff. A friend of mine, who is an excellent jazz-pianist, is also very technical, knows a lot of math and science. I get that feeling with many "good" players.

Tomkeen · February 2, 2009

I strongly disagree. I mean, I know that "brown" people have a knack for grooves and stuff, but you can't just rule white people out. It doesn't work that way.

I disagree too. I mean, come on, be honest here... White people can't groove? So Mark King doesn't groove? Wtf?

Rhythm and groove have nothing to do with race. It's not that all black people have groovy feeling and rhythm. Just as there are many white people that can groove like a mopho (no pun intended).

evildragon · February 2, 2009

I'm sorta good at math, I understand what goes inside my PC, I can mildly program stuff, I understand HTML... Yeah, you can say I'm a bit on a technical side.

I can program a patch from scratch, {censored} yeah!

toddkuen · February 2, 2009

Excellent rules (for piano and other instruments for that matter):

...

1) you have to be able to retain what you learn. This rules out most pot smokers

2) you have to be good at recognizing and memorizing patterns. See the PIANO GRIMOIRE book to get an idea of what I am talking about. This rules out most everyone who never excelled at (or simply abhored) math.

3) you have to have a great sense of rhythm and timing. This rules out most white people--unless they want to play rigid classical music by metronome.

4) you have to have a superb ear for recognizing intervals and chord colors--especially if you want to use the piano to compose. This rules out 80% of the population if not more.

5) you have to be able to practice at least 1 or two hours every day without fail, else you will forget what you learn (just like learning a foreign language). This rules out most working adults.

but you missed

6) you have to learn how to LISTEN - not just to your own sounds but others as well, e.g., in a band setting.

7) you have to know and understand your limitations - but just because you can't plan Chopin like Glenn Gould doesn't mean you can't have fun playing out in a band or making your own recordings.

8) you have to never give up - your progress will be in spurts - big jumps and long plateaus. Very, very few people are truly musically gifted - but that doesn't mean you can't learn enough to have fun.

9) you have to not be afraid to learn something new - and just because you couldn't play it this year doesn't mean you won't be able to next year.

As for the rest of this

...

So as you can see, if your goal is to become a good pianist, you should learn when you are a kid when your brain is developing. If you pick up piano in your 20s, 30s, 40s, unless you are some sort of prodigy, you are in for a long, frustrating journey because if you read up on how the brain works, you will find those "pathways" that are for music are formed at a very young age.

Don't shoot the messenger.

But fear not. If you have been playing the piano for some time and you still suck, there is hope for you. Simply go buy a guitar. It is a lot easier to learn.

In my opinion you're much better off learning to pop some power chords than waste the rest of your life trying to learn an instrument your brain simply can not handle.

I think its somewhat harsh - for example, if your good at patterns you may be good at music - don't bail based on this without giving it a serious try.

I started playing out in my 40's - after playing around the first part of my life - no lessons, just for fun - a friend heard some recordings I made and said "come out to my open mic".

It can be done if you're willing to work hard at it.

Am I any good? To my own ear no - I suck. But apparently I play well enough to be in bands, have fun, and get applause from the audience for solos.

Logicat · February 2, 2009

I was someway afraid to ask that question in a keyb forum, where pros are present too. I expected any of your feedback, actually : my question was sorta of self-answered. But i asked, because i heard no other opinions on it, up to date.
I had my first amateur keyb (a Casiotone CT-370) when i was about 15, and i got keyb lessons for some months, then i stopped. I had the above-said piano lessons at the age of 28 (now i'm 33). True, improving yourself at this age is a hard challenge
My only hope is that when i'll be, say, 40 YO, i'll get better than now, even if i can't do much practice (i have other interests too which cut out time).

Some of you are claiming that playing piano/keyb has something to do with math/logical thinking. My piano teacher was an architect, too. I'm a computer programmer since i was 14...Maybe there's hope ?

Konway · February 2, 2009

I'm really not all that interested in virtuosity...I much prefer expressivity.

I dunno, I think virtuosity allows you to be more expressive... better technique can't hurt.

edit: A random quote to think about "If you don't try to do what you love, you're a fool. If you think you're so great, you're an ass."

Most people probably won't compliment themselves by claiming to be expert keyboardists -- and the ability to learn is different for every individual (although starting at a young age makes things significantly easier simply due to the way the brain functions).

akliner · February 2, 2009

I dunno, I think virtuosity allows you to be more expressive... better technique can't hurt.

I mean clearly I want to know how to play the instrument. BUT...when I practice, I'm not looking to play mindless scales blazingly fast.

dumeril7 · February 2, 2009

I mean clearly I want to know how to play the instrument. BUT...when I practice, I'm not looking to play mindless scales blazingly fast.

I'll try to put it another way... Having impeccable chops allows you play anything you might imagine in your head. But you have to have something worthwhile in you head, and that's the b!tch...

D7

Gus Lozada · February 2, 2009

About 13 years ago I was leading this very popular "top 40" band where I played keys. I was so fine-tuned I could play everything, from salsa, jazz, bossanova/sambas, rock & roll, program those techno riffs, mellow ballades at piano / electric piano...

I was considered a good keyboardist. My chops were ok and I was very versatile. Had tons of work. I was even hired to be MD of different acts (famous and locals) and had my studio fully booked. Oh... the days...

Now... I can still play piano and keys but the ability to play everything and get a song immediately has been... lost

So, it took me about 10 years to became a good player... and another 10 to just loose it

Outkaster · February 2, 2009

I always thought that good musicians are also good at math/science and stuff. A friend of mine, who is an excellent jazz-pianist, is also very technical, knows a lot of math and science. I get that feeling with many "good" players.

I sucked at math and am a good player so that logic does not work. I hear people say that {censored} all the time and it is not true in a lot of cases.

Tomkeen · February 2, 2009

I sucked at math and am a good player so that logic does not work. I hear people say that {censored} all the time and it is not true in a lot of cases.

Of course it doesn't apply all the time, but very often it does. People have called me a good player, and I kinda sucked at math too.

Cydonia · February 2, 2009

Maybe there's hope ?

Of course there is. Since most need to work in another field than music, then time to practice is limited. You just need to set reasonable goals according to the time you can spend practicing. It all depends what you want to play and learn. And remember that what you like now might very well change with time.

IkeTurner · February 2, 2009

"But if you approach it from the standpoint of understanding how chords are constructed, things get a heck of a lot easier."

LOL! Aint that the truth. Man.

So when you say understanding how chords are constructed... what do you mean exactly? I.e. Learning that a major chord has a major third and perfect fifth? Stuff like that?

evildragon · February 2, 2009

LOL! Aint that the truth. Man.

So when you say understanding how chords are constructed... what do you mean exactly? I.e. Learning that a major chord has a major third and perfect fifth? Stuff like that?

That's exactly what he's saying. You learn the basic position of a chord, then move it around and adjust fingers to match the feel of the chord (major, minor, etc.) It's a lot easier than just remembering patterns. To me, it just goes instinctively.

IkeTurner · February 2, 2009

By the way I was not speaking in absolutes on any of my points. Of course there are always exceptions--thought that would go without saying.

My overall point was that learning the piano is not just a matter of sitting down and learning Michael Row Your Boat Ashore, and then playing progressively harder songs, and then becoming a good pianist. Does not work that way. There is a LOT to it. Then again, if your goal is to just have some "fun," I agree you can learn most, e.g., Christmas Carols in a year or two of consistent practice.

As for playing "mindless scales," I agree it can be a morbid undertaking--especially when you figure out that just learning, memorizing, and playing all twelve major scales in parallel motion in one octave is only a fraction of what you need to know in terms of scales. In fact it isn't until you start playing Hanons that you begin to start think about intervals, especially when you're, e.g., playing triads in second inversion in your left hand, and Hanon scales in your right. Good times

Bottom line is that it all depends on what you consider a "good piano player." I consider a good piano player to be someone who can in general..

1. Play fluidly from any lead sheet from a fake book without pausing--with a minimum of say 5 or 6 keys depressed at all times and the ability to invert any chord (maj, min, dim, aug) to any inversion in order to use as much of the keyboard range as possible (double octaves in your left hand don't count :smile:)

2. Transpose a song to any key effortlessly.

3. Learn any given pop tune within a few minutes and have the ability to accompany a singer on any pop tune

4. Play with dynamics and expression and pedal

5. Keep perfect time with a drummer and know how to play ahead/behind the beat.

6. Solo in any key with a major/minor pentatonic scale.

Of course there are a zillion other things, but those are the basics. With those skills you could play in most bands, play solo in a bar (or at parties, etc), be a paid session player, give piano lessons.

Just my .03

evildragon · February 2, 2009

Bottom line is that it all depends on what you consider a "good piano player." I consider a good piano player to be someone who can in general..

1. Play fluidly from any lead sheet from a fake book without pausing--with a minimum of say 5 or 6 keys depressed at all times and the ability to invert any chord (maj, min, dim, aug) to any inversion in order to use as much of the keyboard range as possible (double octaves in your left hand don't count :smile:)

2. Transpose a song to any key effortlessly.

3. Learn any given pop tune within a few minutes and have the ability to accompany a singer on any pop tune

4. Play with dynamics and expression and pedal

5. Keep perfect time with a drummer and know how to play ahead/behind the beat.

6. Solo in any key with a major/minor pentatonic scale.

Of course there are a zillion other things, but those are the basics. With those skills you could play in most bands, play solo in a bar (or at parties, etc), be a paid session player, give piano lessons.

Just my .03

Man, that's not a GOOD piano player. That's a {censored}IN GREAT piano player!

1. halfway there, I pause a lot, but prima vista isn't my style of play

2. Gosh no, I need a lot of time for that, especially if transposing from/back a mostly black-key oriented scale

3. not a problem for learning, I have a very good ear, but my singing voice isn't much of a beauty

4. check, I can do that, and I do it a lot

5. I can do that, I have a feel for rhythm.

6. no problem, but I hate too much black keys, or soloing in (for example) F# minor scale. Gives me headache. I like D-minor the most somehow.

dumeril7 · February 2, 2009

That's exactly what he's saying. You learn the basic position of a chord, then move it around and adjust fingers to match the feel of the chord (major, minor, etc.) It's a lot easier than just remembering patterns. To me, it just goes instinctively.

Exactly. You still have to account for differences in fingerings because of the way the keys are arranged, but for some reason (and I'm not exactly sure why), I find that my mind started automatically making my fingers do the right thing without thinking about it much the more I played. Less deliberate thinking involved.

D7

IkeTurner · February 2, 2009

EvilDragon: That's exactly what he's saying. You learn the basic position of a chord, then move it around and adjust fingers to match the feel of the chord (major, minor, etc.) It's a lot easier than just remembering patterns. To me, it just goes instinctively.

That works for triads in root position--and that's where the fun ends (and where the technically-challenged conclude their chord studies--hahah).

Once you take a triad to first inversion, the interval rules you were so dependent on (the ones you burned into your brain so you could find some solace in relativity)go bye bye and now you have a whole new set of intervals to learn. Example:

You learn a c maj triad is a major third and perfect fifth (C-E-G). And you then learn to apply that principle to ANY major triad on the keyboard. Congrats. I think we can all agree: if you get that far, you have made more than a few weeks of progress

Now convert to first inversion. Now your rule no longer applies. Now a major triad consists of a minor third and perfect fourth (e-g-c). Now you learn all these and apply them to all keys.

Now you work on second inversions. Now your rules for root and 1st inversions are gone. Now a major triad consists of perfect fourth and a major third.

Now multiply these three rules by 12 keys... and four different kinds of chords. Come on who are we kidding? Instinctive? Really?

Quick! What are the order of notes in a Db diminished chord in second inversion?

Then again, if you just want to have "fun," then you needn't worry about all this stuff. Hell, just buy a Yamaha or Casio arranger keyboard so you can just press one key and the whole triad will play in second inversion automatically. No brain power needed.

evildragon · February 2, 2009

Now multiply these three rules by 12 keys... and four different kinds of chords. Come on who are we kidding? Instinctive? Really?

Quick! What are the order of notes in a Db diminished chord in second inversion?

Yes, it's kind of instinctively for me. But I'm playing piano for 16 years (I'm 22 now) so I guess it got into me.

Oh, and it would be Abb-Db-Fb, where Fb is essentially E. (seconds of thinking, of course, but I'm not intimidated by enharmonic spelling )

llamastorm · February 2, 2009

I have fun. I enjoy it.

I don't care.

Gribs · February 2, 2009

Don't shoot the messenger.

BANG!

IkeTurner · February 2, 2009

EvilDragon: Man, that's not a GOOD piano player. That's a {censored}IN GREAT piano player!

No way. A GREAT piano player?? No a great piano player can play Rhapsody in Blue.

1. halfway there, I pause a lot, but prima vista isn't my style of play

2. Gosh no, I need a lot of time for that, especially if transposing from/back a mostly black-key oriented scale

3. not a problem for learning, I have a very good ear, but my singing voice isn't much of a beauty

4. check, I can do that, and I do it a lot

5. I can do that, I have a feel for rhythm.

6. no problem, but I hate too much black keys, or soloing in (for example) F# minor scale. Gives me headache. I like D-minor the most somehow.

It's really interesting how we all have our favorite keys isn't it? I have found in talking to great players that they don't have any preference... they literally like them all. I think when you can say you like all the keys, you've probably reached piano God status

evildragon · February 2, 2009

It's really interesting how we all have our favorite keys isn't it? I have found in talking to great players that they don't have any preference... they literally like them all. I think when you can say you like all the keys, you've probably reached God status

Probably, yeah. I just know in which key I feel the most comfortable playing.

dumeril7 · February 2, 2009