Members lonerstoenr Posted February 2, 2009 Members Share Posted February 2, 2009 Well, I can play 'when the saints go marching in', that makes me pretty good yeah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IkeTurner Posted February 2, 2009 Members Share Posted February 2, 2009 Gribs: This post is intended to be funny, right? You do get the idea that you can just look at the piano keyboard anywhere and just pick up these triads right? You understand how the black keys and white keys are arranged, right? This is hyperbole, right? Or do you think some people just don't get it? Is the concept of the piano keyboard really that difficult for some people to understand? Sure I get it. But you too have belittled the complexity of the instrument. Take the average Joe (Joe the plumber will do), and try to teach him what you just wrote.. physically. Watch him try to form an, e.g., Ab Major triad. Watch him raise his elbow up.. and stick his tongue out... and chuckle.. and then after you have morbidly watched this poor fellow struggle for a bit, and after you finally physically position his fingers for him on the keyboard, ask him to lift his fingers up and divert his attention for a moment. Now ask him to find the Ab major triad again ROFL WE piano players belittle ourselves and our instrument when we belittle the instrument's complexity. There is nothing hyperbolic about any honest portrayal of the piano's complexity. Don't underestimate what you have learned. The average Joe thinks you and I are 'geniuses'.. and for good reason.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members evildragon Posted February 2, 2009 Members Share Posted February 2, 2009 WE piano players belittle ourselves and our instrument when we belittle the instrument's complexity. There is nothing hyperbolic about any honest portrayal of the piano's complexity. Don't underestimate what you have learned. The average Joe thinks you and I are 'geniuses'.. and for good reason.. OK, this is true. A great deal of people say that I'm an excellent player, judging just by what I play and with the emotion I put into it. On the other hand, I know I'm far from an excellent player, compared to greats. But, comments those people make, make me feel excellent ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dumeril7 Posted February 2, 2009 Members Share Posted February 2, 2009 Sure I get it. But you too have belittled the complexity of the instrument. Take the average Joe (Joe the plumber will do), and try to teach him what you just wrote.. physically. Watch him try to form an, e.g., Ab Major triad. Watch him raise his elbow up.. and stick his tongue out... and chuckle.. and then after you have morbidly watched this poor fellow struggle for a bit, and after you finally physically position his fingers for him on the keyboard, ask him to lift his fingers up and divert his attention for a moment. Now ask him to find the Ab major triad againROFLWE piano players belittle ourselves and our instrument when we belittle the instrument's complexity. There is nothing hyperbolic about any honest portrayal of the piano's complexity. Don't underestimate what you have learned. The average Joe thinks you and I are 'geniuses'.. and for good reason.. This post has helped me understand where you're coming from more than any other. And you're right, its a hell of a lot to learn. And to really grok it, requires a pretty high level of abstract thought (hence the math connection), often applied in real-time. D7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members davidplasti-k Posted February 2, 2009 Members Share Posted February 2, 2009 I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IkeTurner Posted February 2, 2009 Members Share Posted February 2, 2009 I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gribs Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 This post has helped me understand where you're coming from more than any other. And you're right, its a hell of a lot to learn. And to really grok it, requires a pretty high level of abstract thought (hence the math connection), often applied in real-time. D7 Back from dinner then piano practicing Me too. What you are saying is that the answer to my question whether the concept of the keyboard is really difficult for the common person to understand is "yes".I guess this would be sort of similar to a portion of a conversation I had with my mother, who is a learned person but not in mathematics, about how I can not understand how a person can go through their day and look at the world around them without a good understanding of the fundamental principles of elementary mathematics including logic, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and calculus. She explained to me that is just not the way that most people go through their lives. She said she realized I had diverged when she picked me up one time from high school and I was going on and on about some concept from calculus class that I found very exciting and she realized she had absolutely no clue what I was talking about (upon further description I even remembered the event - it was about the Weirstrauss construction of a function that is continuous everywhere on the real line but nowhere differentiable).I have also had a similar discussion with my office buddy. We work in a lab that is considered to be one of the top development labs in our company. Exciting stuff is going on all around us and we all work hard to keep up with each other. Pretty much everyone in our development team was a top ten type person in their high school and also in their engineering or science program at university. In the course of this, we have developed [without realizing it] an assumption that everyone we meet outside of work thinks and works with the same degree of intensity and depth of thought that we do. This just is not the case and it can cause social issues for those of us that are not good at navigating socially outside of work (e.g. me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IkeTurner Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Gribs.. the scientist... on the keyboard thread.. providing testimonial that supports exactly what I have said about left brainers and the piano. The truth is piano is all numbers. Ask a jazz pianist how he remembers changes. Numbers. He doesn't generally think "AbMAJ13/Bb" he thinks ALT IV CHORD. Same can be said of intervals. It's all numbers and patterns. And LOTS of them. gribs: I can not understand how a person can go through their day and look at the world around them without a good understanding of the fundamental principles of elementary mathematics including logic, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and calculus. She explained to me that is just not the way that most people go through their lives. Very thought-provoking. A few comments... first, there is nothing elementary about trig, Isaac. Second, great pianists like Art, Oscar, Keith, Bill, Joe, Chick, etc weren't mathematicians per se (that is: they probably didn't think Pythagorean theory when they looked at a traffic sign shape, for example :smile:), but I bet they cuold have been with less effort than say an abstract thinker like myself. Third, as for your wonderment over how people can see life sans the math stuff, conversely I wonder how people could go through life and not see/consider metaphysics, philosophy, history, theology, etc in everything they see. I never think in terms of numbers, or shapes, or anything of the sort. I am always thinking of words to describe something, lyrics, how something might be described by a reporter, the history of something (how long it has been there, how many people have seen it), and so forth and so on. Never numbers. I will say this though: I have been learning about logic for the past three months. I like it. I bought several books including a 600 page Philosophy "primer." I am amazed by everything I have learned. Just amazed. Deductive and inductive argument... and how it is amazingly so relative to music.... Anyways, I envy you. I'd love to see the world through your eyes... every time I sat down to the piano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Severalist Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 To play a good keyboard, I mean, like really play that guy, persay, from what I'm told and have heard under the dining table begging for scraps, you first have to... [YOUTUBE] [/YOUTUBE] If anybody tells you different you can chop their head off for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 If you're not good, that means your bad, so I don't really think in those terms. Seems defeatist. And does it really matter if are a virtuoso or anything? Not so much. Music does not require that to have soul, edge, or feeling. I have favorite guitar players, I don't care who is the best anymore since the really fast or technical ones are not always the most interesting. As for instinctiveness as someone brought up, muscle memory does work almost EXACTLY like that, without the ability for much conscious recall (See also, typing, where I am a REALLY GOOD typist -- now, quick, where is an "b" on the keyboard without typing or thinking of the other letters? Who said under the G and H? Probably no one.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IkeTurner Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 As for instinctiveness as someone brought up, muscle memory does work almost EXACTLY like that, without the ability for much conscious recall Agreed. But I don't think it works like that (comes as easily automatic) for everyone llama... if it did Tiger Woods would be flipping burgers like the rest of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Konway Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 If you're not good, that means your bad, so I don't really think in those terms. Seems defeatist. And does it really matter if are a virtuoso or anything? Not so much. Music does not require that to have soul, edge, or feeling. I have favorite guitar players, I don't care who is the best anymore since the really fast or technical ones are not always the most interesting. As for instinctiveness as someone brought up, muscle memory does work almost EXACTLY like that, without the ability for much conscious recall (See also, typing, where I am a REALLY GOOD typist -- now, quick, where is an "b" on the keyboard without typing or thinking of the other letters? Who said under the G and H? Probably no one.). I think I get what you're saying here, and I agree. Knowledge and technical ability (in the virtuoso sense) are definitely helpful but not required for making great music... I'm sure there are people out there to whom the terms "chord" "scale" "triad" "inversion" etc. would all sound completely alien, yet they can still play jazz piano almost as well as some of the greats. You can definitely learn to play piano / keyboard without ever learning a single scale, it's just not necessarily the most efficient way to do it. If music were just math we would have been replaced by computers long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 I'm sure there are people out there to whom the terms "chord" "scale" "triad" "inversion" etc. would all sound completely alien, yet they can still play jazz piano almost as well as some of the greats. name three, please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Threnzebak Ja Creee Vvvvvvvvvvvvvvv'vvvvvv'iiiii The Devastator Of Chronulus The Great Emperor Zordak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Third, as for your wonderment over how people can see life sans the math stuff, conversely I wonder how people could go through life and not see/consider metaphysics, philosophy, history, theology, etc in everything they see. I never think in terms of numbers, or shapes, or anything of the sort. I am always thinking of words to describe something, lyrics, how something might be described by a reporter, the history of something (how long it has been there, how many people have seen it), and so forth and so on. Never numbers. Math isn't about numbers. Math is the fundamental thread that runs through the universe. Physics is Math.Chemistry is Physics.Biology is Chemistry.Life is Biology.Those other things are byproducts of Life. Without math, nothing exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Konway Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 name three, pleaseI doubt any of them would be well-known... how convenient for my argument, eh? Anyway, you don't need to know the names of the chords to learn them -- or to learn what sounds good, for that matter. Someone who is self taught may still know all the chords and scales, they just won't know them by conventional terminology. Same end, different route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lonerstoenr Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Anyway, you don't need to know the names of the chords to learn them -- or to learn what sounds good, for that matter. Someone who is self taught may still know all the chords and scales, they just won't know them by conventional terminology. Same end, different route. This NEVER happens in real life. I've heard of and known a lot of 'self taught' people, either their 'self taught' status is applying their classical and jazz training on the Tuba to guitar, or they don't actually know that much and get lost a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IkeTurner Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Math isn't about numbers. Math is the fundamental thread that runs through the universe. Physics is Math. Chemistry is Physics. Biology is Chemistry. Life is Biology. Those other things are byproducts of Life. Without math, nothing exists. That may be true; but I wasn't arguing against that. I was saying that is not MY paradigm. The only time I think about any of the things you listed is when I have to make a decision (i.e. laws of physics tell me not to step off this ledge else I will break both legs). Me, I ponder more abstract things--and not necessarily by choice. As far back as I can remember I have always thought of life as a song.. or a poem.. or a film... or a soundtrack. Hence I'd rather think about sociology and psychology as I am interested in what makes people (and populations) tick. I can make the piano sound lovely. I can build deep, rich soundtracks that would blow your mind. But in the final analysis my music is not melodic.. because melody is once again.. you guessed it.. a pattern... and my brain rejects patterns for some reason... hence my melodies are lifeless. The human condition is really all that matters to me I suppose. And from there the conversation heads to the spiritual domain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members polymer Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Math isn't about numbers. Math is the fundamental thread that runs through the universe.Physics is Math.Chemistry is Physics.Biology is Chemistry.Life is Biology.Those other things are byproducts of Life.Without math, nothing exists. kind of sort of. Math is an incredible tool, whose power to imitate the universe is unparalleled. Philosophy failed to provide the degree of truth we found from the universe with science. It's easy to ignore things like philosophy when things like math and science provide so much to learn, develop and use. /minishpeil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IkeTurner Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 I should add I think there are some people who possess affinities for both the empirical and the abstract. They are called virtuosos. The rest of us generally live in one sphere or the other... and most people never stop to consider what sphere they are in. Which brings me full circle to the original question this thread posed. At the end of the day I think it behooves the aspirant pianist to consider their strengths and build on those. For I believe if you are left brained and you aspire to be an improviser, you are in for a lot of frustration. I would say the same for a right-brainer who decides he wants to play Chopin's repertoire. Are you more an artist or a scientist? That really is the first question I would set out to answer before learning to play the piano.... if I could do it all over again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IkeTurner Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 And another thing. Regardless of my cranial shortcomings, I never give up. At 41 I hold out hope that if I stick with it long enough, one day I will have a breakthrough. I just keep hoping and playing. Some days I feel like I am really advancing, other days I feel the intellectual inadequacies creeping in... that voice saying "Dude you can't even do beginning algebra, you're never going to solve these puzzles.." and they really are... they really are puzzles. So if you love puzzles, you should love piano Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members augerinn Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Good keyboard player ? Not me. I guess I have chops. And the ability to obesess over something until I learn it. No formal training to speak of, and maybe an above average natural ability.The human condition is really all that matters to me I suppose. And from there the conversation heads to the spiritual domain...Someone once observed that we are spiritual creatures experiencing the human condition...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Guitarsoul34 Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 To the OP: 1. Acknowledge that terms such as "excellent", "crappy", "good" and "mediocre" are all completely relative to the individual, what their long term goals are, what they perceive their potential to be, and who they are comparing themselves to. 2. Practice. Not so much that you burn out and begin to hate the instrument, but always enough where you are in some way, even a tiny bit, improving each and every time you sit down at the piano. 3. Enjoy and come to appreciate the hurdles on your journey with the piano...you will learn an awful lot about yourself when they arise, and how you react to them. 4. Have fun playing. On the good days where things seem to flow nicely that's very easy to do...on the hard days when things are frustrating, and you feel ready to give up and say "This is useless!"...remember you are playing the instrument for pleasure, and to take a piece of you and express it through an object outside yourself. If sharing something in you, to others or just to hear it yourself, is worth the journey, then keep plugging on, and the "fun" will come back in your practice when you least expect it. 5. Any skill...be it music, athletics, artistic, technology, mind or body...that we dedicate ourselves to is a long journey with many peaks and many valleys. It's a path that has no end...remember the goal is for you to conquer your own individual challenges. If you can do that, and come to enjoy the process...what else could you possibly need? Best of luck in your practice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Konway Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 2. Practice. Not so much that you burn out and begin to hate the instrument, but always enough where you are in some way, even a tiny bit, improving each and every time you sit down at the piano. A lot of classically trained pianists will disagree and tell you you're not practicing hard enough until you feel burned out and hate the instrument Those are usually the ones who major in piano performance or play professionally though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cydonia Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 But a {censored}ING GREAT piano player can play Hungarian Rhapsody no 2. Yep, we all suck compared to Bugs Bunny. He can play it. Too bad they removed the complete clip from YouTube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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