Hey Z.Vex... get your "pissed off" face on.

bieke · November 20, 2007

less blatant rip-off

bieke · November 20, 2007

alleged blatant BoR rip-off

BTBAM · November 20, 2007

blatant rip-off

THAT BEE IS DIDDLING ALL OVER THAT RAINBOW FLOWER

Kittie Rose · November 20, 2007

lol sig'd

blackjack davey · November 20, 2007

I think Phil said it best. If the original company and/or designer are still around one should support them. I for one love my Fuzz Factory, and granted it was a lot of money, but it was hand-made by the creator and I felt that I should support that company and not undermine them by buying a clone and taking money away from their original hard work.

Uma Floresta · November 20, 2007

I think Phil said it best. If the original company and/or designer are still around one should support them. I for one love my Fuzz Factory, and granted it was a lot of money, but it was hand-made by the creator and I felt that I should support that company and not undermine them by buying a clone and taking money away from their original hard work.

Does Vex actually make them himself? I thought he didn't - I don't see how he could, he's got a lot of products.

TweedBassman · November 20, 2007

this argument boils down to the main plight of the ethics of man. do you do what's best for the greater good, what's best for yourself, or what's best because it's right with no exception?

for the greater good, hey let's all post schems and say F the man. clone away, if you can, everyone wins, right? well, no. as communism proved, if everyone strives for a greater common good (cheap clones for everyone) the inventors will stop inventing. there will be no more fuzz factories so to speak, no incentive to create, as it will be assimilated into the greater good eventually. the cloners will move on and small business will die to only be replaced by Boss pedals on every board.

what about what's best for YOU? i want a woolly mammoth but can't afford one. let me clone it, no harm, right? i mean it's just for me. well, honestly on a very small scale i'd have to agree. but then again, in the end this fails. it's a fine balance if you choose to go this route. reverse engineering a pedal on your own time is one thing, finding sites with schems is another... and down the slippery slope we go into full on crapfests like that german clone site and into 'why would inventors even bother' territory.

i personally go by the third option, do what's right because it's right.... not because my friends want something, not because of my own greed, but because it's the right thing to do. same reason i go to small local shops whenever i can. i could build a fuzz factory but i'd rather support the man who started it.

in the end, when it comes to clones, stealing, and things like that, i always look at it as a face to face encounter. if i wanted to clone a fuzz factory, and sell it, i'm pretty sure zvex would punch me in the face if i met him. and he'd have the right to. but, do you know who invented the tubescreamer? would you recognize them on the street? i wouldn't. how about the proco rat? beats me.

smrz · November 20, 2007

for the greater good, hey let's all post schems and say F the man. clone away, if you can, everyone wins, right? well, no. as communism proved, if everyone strives for a greater common good (cheap clones for everyone) the inventors will stop inventing. there will be no more fuzz factories so to speak, no incentive to create, as it will be assimilated into the greater good eventually. the cloners will move on and small business will die to only be replaced by Boss pedals on every board.

I actually don't have a problem with clones for personal use...and schematics for the same thing. It's commercialization of cloning that's pretty {censored}ed up. I don't think you can argue, based on our collective experience with communism, that capitalism is the only system that can or will work. Not that it's really the same thing, but I saw The Evens a year or so ago, and Ian MacKaye said this abut stealing music, in different words: People say they lose their inspiration to create when the profit motive goes out of music. Well, good riddance. That's not what we're about. I'd rather 2,000 people hear my music and have no money than have $2,000 and no one who has heard my music.

Obviously, the pedal industry is a business, and people need to be able to do things like buy food and pay rent. I'm just saying it's not quite so cut and dry as I feel like you're presenting it. :poke:

melx · November 20, 2007

I don't think you can argue, based on our collective experience with communism, that capitalism is the only system that can or will work.

I actually think we are well on the way to proving that Capitalism doesn't work very well.

sense_of_henry · November 20, 2007

completely irrelevant imo

Sounds like someone watched, "the corporation" (and used very similar wording and descriptions even though the point wasn't quite a "clone").

mike.sartori · November 20, 2007

I think it's fine to clone pedals that are no longer manufactured.

What about cloning a pedal that you are on a two-year waiting list for?

Finally, some pedals are just ridiculously expensive. A Klon centaur is not worth what it costs. I've played it, you pay for hype, but if you want the sweet enclosure with the horsey man you gotta have the real one, it will help you win pedalboard competitions. Zvex pedals are the same thing, they are nice, but you end up spending a lot more money for a little more pedal. If I was a rich dude I would probably buy them. As it is, if my buddy could build a seek wah with tap tempo, I'd probably buy it because he would charge me $100, and I would never buy a real one for $300 + $100 for tap-tempo, so Zvex isn't losing any money on that one, I'm just getting an opportunity to try a sound I wouldn't otherwise have.

TweedBassman · November 20, 2007

i actually think i presented it (poorly) with a TON of gray areas in between all the hard cut and dry options. and that's the problem, ya know? one person's opinion of their gray area between A and B will clash with another person's opinion even if it's close. ah, life. wtf.

Kittie Rose · November 20, 2007

I think it's fine to clone pedals that are no longer manufactured.

What about cloning a pedal that you are on a two-year waiting list for?

Finally, some pedals are just ridiculously expensive. A Klon centaur is not worth what it costs. I've played it, you pay for hype, but if you want the sweet enclosure with the horsey man you gotta have the real one, it will help you win pedalboard competitions. Zvex pedals are the same thing, they are nice, but you end up spending a lot more money for a little more pedal. If I was a rich dude I would probably buy them. As it is, if my buddy could build a seek wah with tap tempo, I'd probably buy it because he would charge me $100, and I would never buy a real one for $300 + $100 for tap-tempo, so Zvex isn't losing any money on that one, I'm just getting an opportunity to try a sound I wouldn't otherwise have.

Yeah, that's actually a good point. I think cloning is a LOT more justified if the pedal in question is as expensive as something like a Klon. If you're going to use "Free Market" to justify the cost, it should go both ways.

I think if Zvex pedals were priced more like the pedals of these Corporations, then it'd be quite obvious there's something "there" that isn't with the corporations. But Zvex is already charging a lot for not being a corporation, and isn't even terribly nice to people on these forums. So it is a grey area at the very least.

smrz · November 20, 2007

A Klon centaur is not worth what it costs.

If you're against cloning otherwise, I don't understand how cost can justify it. If you're accepting that you should buy from manufacturers, how do you decide a fair price? They will sell it at whatever the market will support. Like I say, I have nothing against cloning for personal use anyway, but I'm sick of people saying that the high price of some pedals justifies cloning them. It's not like there aren't alternatives out there.:poke:

TweedBassman · November 20, 2007

the price to make one pedal vs. the price to produce multiple, high-quality pieces in any large quantity and promote and distribute them would blow most of your minds.

Devi Ever · November 20, 2007

I think if Zvex pedals were priced more like the pedals of these Corporations, then it'd be quite obvious there's something "there" that isn't with the corporations.

Can you please clarify your point here. No trying to harass you. I simply am interested in what you are trying to say.

melx · November 20, 2007

Yeah, that's actually a good point. I think cloning is a LOT more justified if the pedal in question is as expensive as something like a Klon. If you're going to use "Free Market" to justify the cost, it should go both ways.

I think if Zvex pedals were priced more like the pedals of these Corporations, then it'd be quite obvious there's something "there" that isn't with the corporations. But Zvex is already charging a lot for not being a corporation, and isn't even terribly nice to people on these forums. So it is a grey area at the very least.

well yeah, that maybe true..but who's gonna bother cloning a $60 or even a $100 pedal that you can buy cheap enough already?

Devi Ever · November 20, 2007

well yeah, that's maybe true..but who's gonna bother cloning a $60 or even a $100 pedal that you can buy cheap enough already?

It's kind of interesting, because people leach off corporate pedals to make money beyond cloning, and of course, that would be modding. :')

(btw, I know "leach" sounded derogatory... I was not trying to be so... simply making the point how people can make money off another person's "good name" beyond cloning)

HeartfeltDawn · November 20, 2007

Yeah, that's actually a good point. I think cloning is a LOT more justified if the pedal in question is as expensive as something like a Klon. If you're going to use "Free Market" to justify the cost, it should go both ways.

So do you believe that 'acceptable cloneability' of a pedal is proportional to the cost of the pedal being cloned in some ways? ie. the higher the cost of the pedal, the more acceptable it is to clone it.

A Klon Centaur is worth a) what the seller believes it is worth and puts it out for b) what the seller on the secondhand resale market thinks it is worth and c) what the buyer on the secondhand market thinks it's worth. There isn't some book written that has the value of pedals. That's the same as people on Ebay asking me to sell them something at a BIN price and telling me to 'give me a fair price mate'. Define a fair price on an auction site! One day it might be worth rat {censored}, the next a four-figure sum.

Somone might buy a Klon, use it and it completes their sound in ways they never thought possible. To them, it's worth everything. Someone else might find that with a Fuzz Factory. I didn't. The FF didn't suit my music at all so I sold it. That doesn't make it a less valuable pedal financially but it makes it less valuable as a creative tool to me.

mike.sartori · November 20, 2007

Yeah, that's actually a good point. I think cloning is a LOT more justified if the pedal in question is as expensive as something like a Klon. If you're going to use "Free Market" to justify the cost, it should go both ways.

There is definitely a law of diminishing return when it comes to how much you spend on something for quality.

For instance, a $250 guitar is probably going to be MUCH better than a $100 guitar, while a $600 will only be somewhat better than the $250 guitar, and a $1,500 guitar is only marginally better than that. It's the same with everything else too - a Timex is %75 of a Rolex, but it doesn't cost 25% more for a Rolex, it's much more. You pay 1,000% more money for 25% more watch.

Same thing with pedals, you don't see boss clones (except for behringer) because it's easy enough to just buy a boss, you don't see timex clones in NYC either.

Zvex already stated that he wants to keep his company small, keep demand high, and sell his pedals at a high markup. He will have no trouble selling his pedals, and he should expect people to try to make a cheaper alternative.

HeartfeltDawn · November 20, 2007

It's kind of interesting, because people leach off corporate pedals to make money beyond cloning, and of course, that would be modding. :')

(btw, I know "leach" sounded derogatory... I was not trying to be so... simply making the point how people can make money off another person's "good name" beyond cloning)

Modding's different because you're giving credit to the original design and company, he says looking down at his Ibanez/Keeley AD-9 Car modding is the same. You'll have the original manufacturer given credit but an engineering team will have their name alongside that. Modding a DS-1 is a bit different to copying someone's circuit entirely, giving them no credit whatsoever for designing that circuit and chucking it in your own unbranded unlogo'ed box.

Kittie Rose · November 20, 2007

So do you believe that 'acceptable cloneability' of a pedal is proportional to the cost of the pedal being cloned in some ways? ie. the higher the cost of the pedal, the more acceptable it is to clone it.

Yes. Surely regardless of whether it's right or wrong, it's still more justified? Taking the fire from the gods, and all that.

A Klon Centaur is worth a) what the seller believes it is worth and puts it out for b) what the seller on the secondhand resale market thinks it is worth and c) what the buyer on the secondhand market thinks it's worth.

That's more of an opinion than anything. A pedal can really be set at whatever price will make a profit. There's nothing more to it than that. If "The People" believe it's too pricey but still feel they really have no choice if they REALLY LOVE this pedal, then I think it's good someone frees them from that, maybe.

There isn't some book written that has the value of pedals. That's the same as people on Ebay asking me to sell them something at a BIN price and telling me to 'give me a fair price mate'. Define a fair price on an auction site! One day it might be worth rat {censored}, the next a four-figure sum.

But if people feel it's too expensive, regardless of whether they buy it or not(someone buying something does not mean they do not find it too expensive, I have a Fuzz Factory but I still think it was costly).

Somone might buy a Klon, use it and it completes their sound in ways they never thought possible. To them, it's worth everything.

But to someone, a fork could be worth everything. It could end up being the most special fork in the whole world. They could learn fork to fork combat, and take their fork on roller coster rides. They could become a politician, and campaign for fork rights, and have their fork legally recognised as a person. They could fund several scientists to come up with nanotechnology that will bring their fork to life. They could get married to their fork and open a series of hotels in the Bahamas just so they can have their own get away spot.

They could love their fork that damn much. But it's still a fork, and shouldn't cost more than a dollar.

I really think that counters that point once and for all. You can't charge for subjectivity. I like to call that "Arteest" pricing. The Wii suffers from it...

Someone else might find that with a Fuzz Factory. I didn't. The FF didn't suit my music at all so I sold it. That doesn't make it a less valuable pedal financially but it makes it less valuable as a creative tool to me.

I love my FF more than any other pedal I have, almost. But I still think Zach is a dick and I still think his stuff is overpriced.

Fact is, a $250 pedal I love to bits and need, might not be any better than a $60 I love to bits and need. I really like my Turbo RAT just as much as my FF, probably more after this debacle.

Devi Ever · November 20, 2007

Modding's different because you're giving credit to the original design and company

I'd like to make one point here about "clones" and possible benefit to a boutique company (or corporation for that matter).

I know Zack probably HATES this, but I've always seen the example I'm going to bring up as ultimately great advertising for Zvex.

... and that is simply the Line 6 Filter Modeler's inclusion of an "Ooh Wah" model.

In the book it shows a picture of the pedal and clearly states what it is modeled after. Now think of all the Line 6 kids who play with the FM-4 and are exposed to Zvex.

Same goes for everything else Line 6 models. How many people have drooled over the models only to eventually buy the real thing?

Kinda like torrenting and the apparent increase in movie/music/dvd purchases (people try before they buy or are exposed to things they might not normally waste time/money on).

I'm just saying, there is a flip side to cloning. Big Muffs and Tube Screamers pretty much have their legendary status written in stone thanks to the amount of people cloning and adding fire to the hype machine.

It'd be really interesting to see the actual sales figures on pedals who have been cloned / modeled over the past 10 years.

I have a feeling their sales have only gone up up up.

HeartfeltDawn · November 20, 2007

There is definitely a law of diminishing return when it comes to how much you spend on something for quality.

For instance, a $250 guitar is probably going to be MUCH better than a $100 guitar, while a $600 will only be somewhat better than the $250 guitar, and a $1,500 guitar is only marginally better than that. It's the same with everything else too - a Timex is %75 of a Rolex, but it doesn't cost 25% more for a Rolex, it's much more. You pay 1,000% more money for 25% more watch.

Same thing with pedals, you don't see boss clones (except for behringer) because it's easy enough to just buy a boss, you don't see timex clones in NYC either.

Most musical gear is the same. A $500 Focusrite pre-amp is good. A Neve pre-amp costing $2000 won't be four times as good as the Focusrite. As you spend more, the improvement gets smaller and smaller. With instruments as with most things, spending more and getting something held up as being 'better' doesn't make it better. It's purely subjective. I like my modded Epi Dot more than the mint Edwards ES-335 I had last year but the Edwards was over twice the price.

The point here is 'nicking designs'. I'm sure the cloned FF will sound pretty decent, maybe as good as the Zvex one. Does that make it right for someone to copy a circuit deisgn and arrangement from Zvex and sell it as their own without any acknowledgement given to Zvex.

I was smoking as usual earlier and wondered about 'licensing of designs'. It ties in a bit with my earlier post about the small amount of pedal builders in Europe compared to North America. Could there be a chance of US pedal builders licensing out their designs to builders in Europe? I was imagining a Fender-Squier situation here, that a pedal builder in Hungary could build 'licensed' Fuzz Factories. The Hungarian builder pays Zvex $20 per pedal, puts up his prices a bit but still undercuts the price of a new FF coming into Hungary. The Hungarian pedal builder gets a good repuration and Zvex makes money in places they'd have very few sales in. Zvex retains copyright of the circuit, makes some cash, still sells the US ones to the US market as I imagine home is his strongest market...

Yes I know it's a bollocks idea. It was idle Benson and Hedges dreaming

HeartfeltDawn · November 20, 2007