Test of Roland's V-PIANO and new PHA-III keyboard.

[Melodialworks]

Long story short: played it, paid for it, and it should be arriving this Sat.

 

 

Nice one! Congratulations. Are you planning on running two channels or four channels of audio? I've heard that the sound is much better with four, but I imagine your wife might notice additional monitors . . . !

 

Anyway, many of us are panting for ANY information, so we're certainly looking forward to your in-depth impressions!

 

Lawrence

[goldenpiggy]

Thanks, everyone.

Unfortunately I'll be doing 2 channels at this time. I will run V Piano balanced outs into a Mackie Onyx 1620.

For critical listening, I will use a Sennheiser 650 headphones. Other times a Crown K2 amp will drive a pair of NHT Classic 4 home speakers. Not exactly high fidelity but it'll have to do. I left my trusty Mackie 824s back in the States.

[midi]

I heard apartments were small there....

[Nillerbabs]

Does it have pedals velocity sensitivity and can you actually hear the pedals being pressed and lifted? At different velocities... now, that would be realism!!

[mcnova]

Does it have pedals velocity sensitivity and can you actually hear the pedals being pressed and lifted? At different velocities... now, that would be realism!!

 

 

I don't think they've implemented a way of reading velocity from the pedals - haven't seen any mention of this.

 

As for the noise itself, there is a parameter called Damper Noise Level. From the manual:

 

 

This adjusts the damper noise of an acoustic piano; i.e., the sound that is heard when you press the damper pedal to release the

strings.

Increasing this value will increase the sound heard when the strings are released.

 

[goldenpiggy]

Apartments are definitely small here. Compared to US everything is 1/2 or 2/3-sized: doors, fridge, washing machine, stove, parking space, streets...

For that reason I think the V Piano will do OK in Japan (lots of apartment dwellers.)

I will check out the pedal velocities. I had no idea piano players made use of nuances in pedal travel...wow. What do I know, it's just an on/off switch (well maybe 3-way with half-damper) for organ/keyboard players.

[CyberGene]

The duration of the sustain depends on the degree you have pressed the sustain pedal, so it is really important. Also, there is a specific pumping movement I am using (hopefully others are using it too?) on real piano where there is bass note(s) held by the damper pedal and when you are playing arpeggios over those bass notes and changing the mode(chord) of the arpeggios - I am quickly pumping up and down with the pedal once, so that higher notes with shorter sustain are cleared up, but the bass is still caught - in that case it is really important that on the "UP" movement you do not release the pedal fully but only part of the way - depending on the bass notes and the arpeggios and degree to which you would like to control the sustain. And I am using this technique quite often.

[goldenpiggy]

Thank you for the explanation. I am embarrassed. I need to take piano lessons.

No wonder I can never get that pleasing sustain sound. Either the damper is pressed down or it's released on an electronic keyboard!

[The Audacity Works]

Does it have pedals velocity sensitivity and can you actually hear the pedals being pressed and lifted? At different velocities... now, that would be realism!!

The V-Piano (and certain other Roland and Yamaha keyboards) have continuous damping

[CyberGene]

Of course, that's why the sostenuto pedal is used on grand pianos - but most uprights don't have it. In any case it is realistic to have continuous pedals.

[Melodialworks]

 

If it's one fault I could find, it's the hammer attack in the upper 1-1/2 octaves sounding a little too metallic. I tried all the presets, and they all sounded that way.

 

 

I play a Roland FP-7 and also HP-207 on a regular basis, and find that the upper octaves on these instruments are also accentuated, and the sound will actually hurt my ears, if I'm not careful with the velocity that I'm using. (I play New Age piano, so it's not because I'm pounding the keys . . .)

 

It makes me wonder if this is a Roland thing. They like "hot" trebles?

 

Lawrence

[goldenpiggy]

Interesting...the Korg SG ProX and Triton Studio piano patches do not have this metallic sound at the upper end.

I've never had affinity for Roland sound until I heard the V Synth (and V Piano of course). I owned a few Rolands in the 90's (U220, XP50, XP80, SC88, SC880). Got rid of them long ago. On stage they could never cut through the mix.

My all time favorite cut-through-the-mix board is the Yamaha EX5 (BTW I highly recommend picking up a used EX5r for its organ and EP sounds.)

V Piano will be my first Roland in almost 10 years.

[Son of HuHefner]

Interesting...the Korg SG ProX and Triton Studio piano patches do not have this metallic sound at the upper end. I've never had affinity for Roland sound until I heard the V Synth (and V Piano of course). I owned a few Rolands in the 90's (U220, XP50, XP80, SC88, SC880). Got rid of them long ago. On stage they could never cut through the mix. My all time favorite cut-through-the-mix board is the Yamaha EX5 (BTW I highly recommend picking up a used EX5r for its organ and EP sounds.) V Piano will be my first Roland in almost 10 years.

 

 

I hope you find its worth it.

 

I have owned the last 3 gen's of the RD d/p and like the GX quite a bit

[goldenpiggy]

They deliver on Sundays in Japan! (Was supposed to be here yesterday though.) Arigato gosaimasu.

 

I just got it setup a few minutes ago. It's a big boy but not as heavy as I had imagined...weight is evenly distributed and it's balanced front to back. I'm not a big person (5' 10", 155lbs) yet it was easy for me to lift it out of the box and onto the stand by myself. I don't see a problem with people dragging the V Piano to gigs, provided the flight case doesn't weigh a ton. Actually it doesn't seem to weigh much more than my Triton Studio 88, if I remember correctly.

 

Fit and finish is 1st rate...beyond normal synths and keyboards. It is very well put together, very solid. It is all metal except for the end caps, which are probably painted MDF (but very solid). Even the pedals are in an all-metal enclosure and very substantial. I see no cost cutting, except for the plastic "ivory feel" keys. (More on that later). Aside from it's modern looks, the V Piano is furniture-grade in its uncluttered front panel and build quality. It looks expensive (well, it IS expensive).

 

I'm glad to say the sounds do not disappoint. For the first time, we have a digital piano that does not depend on built-in effects to sound good. Actually it sounds BETTER with the built-in effects turned down. The piano sound's low level details and authenticity are just exemplary and scary real. It doesn't seem possible that there are no samples in this thing. The dynamic range of the V Piano is mindboggling. I had to crank up the output by 6dB to get decent output from an outboard DAC (the volume knob has no effect on digital out.) At first I thought something was wrong with the digital output, but then I realize this was probably done to prevent clipping, because of the vast dynamic range. I'm using the "medium" keyboard touch setting. For some reason, I no longer hear the overly metallic sounding hammer hits in the upper 1-1/2 octaves like I did at the store. Maybe Roland tweaked something for production units? Or maybe my playback system is smoothing things out (I doubt that though -- it was very obvious and metallicky.)

 

I'm running the balanced outs (output A only) since I only have two speakers. At the same time, I have the digital out going into a Bel Canto DAC2 outboard D/A converter into two other channels on the Mackie board. I also Y the DAC outputs into a Musical Fidelity X10v3 tube buffer, then into the mixer. So I can select from 3 different sources on the mixer and compare. What I can say is that the V Piano's balanced outputs are very, very good. There is absolutely no "digitalness" (edginess, harshness) to the sound at all. It is crystal clear, noise-free, and smooth. Alas, going through the Bel Canto DAC (a $1200 device) sounds a bit better to me -- slightly wider soundstage and not as "in your face." That Bel Canto DAC is a pretty amazing sounding box anyway. But lone and behold, it's the DAC output through the tube buffer that smokes them all, just really sweet to my ears and massive soundstage/ambience. Haven't tried the headphones yet.

 

The only thing telling you it's not a quite real piano is that the vibration and location queues from a real piano's soundboard is lacking. Well of course, this is not a real piano. I'm sure using 4 channel output would help, but more likely it's the fact that sound coming from a real piano is not point-source like those emanating from speakers. I would say that to get the most convincing experience out of the V Piano, the playback system (your monitor/speakers and their placement) is vital. This isn't about authenticy of the piano sound itself, which the V Piano has in abundance. It's just that if you want this board to totally substitute for a real piano experience (i.e. have it replace the piano in your living room), it can't.

 

And that ivory feel keyboard. The keys are the best feeling, most playable, and closest to real piano that I have felt. They are very, very good. My fingers never slip on them because they are not shiny plastic keys -- there's friction. Couple with the V Piano's vast dynamic range, it is amazing to play. But On the other hand, "ivory feel" looks to be more like slightly roughed-up plastic instead of shiny plastic (you know, like taking fine emery cloth and sanding it a bit). Feel of the keys aside, "ivory feel" seems to be more marketing and cost cutting. Maybe I'm being overly critical, but it does look slightly out of place (a little cheap looking to me).

 

So far the biggest disappointment (there aren't many) is (1) the "enter" key is the F1 soft key, which is on the OPPOSITE side of the data entry wheel. Unless you use both hands, you're constantly lifting your hand when making adjustments or going through parameters. (2) The sequencer sucks. It's almost an afterthought. My biggest problem with the sequencer is that it cannot capture he vast dynamics of this instrument. What I play and what the sequencer plays back sounds totally different in terms of dynamics.

 

Unfortunately I have to work today, so I'll write more later. I want to write an in-depth evaluation with pictures, but it will take me a few days to a week to do since I have a day job. This is a deep instrument even if it's just a piano. Maybe by that time you will see one in the stores in the States. I am sure you will no be disappointed. Roland has outdone themselves on this one. Totally worth it.

[goldenpiggy]

I stand corrected...the bottom is made of MDF like most 88-key keyboards. They painted black to match the metal around it.

Really enjoying its expressionability and dynamics.

[CyberGene]

Goldenpiggy, what a great review, thank you very much! This must be the first unbiased real user review of the instrument and it is very useful. I hope you will find some time to record the factory demos via digital out and compress them with a lossless compression (FLAC, APE), so that we can finally listen to high-quality demos

By the way, I think the soundboard effects like resonance, etc can either be routed to separate output B, or mixed down in stereo to output A together with the main piano sound. Have you taken in mind that when you were talking about vibrations?

[goldenpiggy]

I will record the demos direct to CD via the digital out...please give me a couple of days. Hope I don't get in trouble with Roland!

 

As far as B outs, there are only three options in the system menu under "Sound Perpective": off, A dry/B ambience (which I take to mean the reverb goes to B), and "Grand Ambience." Grand Ambience seems to affect A outputs by making a wider sound stage. You may be right -- I'll have to do recordings of B outputs only.

 

Sorry, I was blind when I said that the enter button is the F1 softkey...you can also press down the data entry wheel as the enter button.

 

I briefly tried the GM sounds, driving it from my Korg i30 arranger keyboard/Casio-wannabe via MIDI. You wouldn't want to be caught using the GM sounds. Might end your career. I don't even know why Roland bothered. Doesn't even have effects! Any 10 year old General MIDI module can waste it.

 

The audio inputs are a nifty feature, allowing you to hook another keyboard or even an ipod into the V Piano and have the sound come out the same A output. But Roland goofed by burying the volume and V Piano/audio input balance in the menus! A volume knob would have been so much more useful.

 

I tried releasing the sustain pedal in varying degrees of velocity and travel. It does seem to respond to how fast or slow I let go of the pedal and how mcuh travel remains, but I can't quite grasp the exact effect as far as tonal decay. It does seem to be more than the usual half-damper though, so maybe it is continuous.

 

I forgot to mention the V Piano takes about 12 seconds to boot up. I guess all those DSPs have to load their code from somewhere...

 

I was able to hear some barely-audible digital artifacts when I transposed +12 and played the last 2-3 highest notes. The very very tail end of the decay would go up slightly in pitch. Barely audible. I guess that's kind of pushing it. No issue if I don't transpose or transpose a few steps. No big deal.

 

I still can't get over how good the V Piano sounds and how wonderful the keys feel. It's so good Roland can probably use it as the basis for samples to put into their next ROMplers. Definitely this thing can obsolete 3rd party 1GB+ piano samples. I'm having a hard time finding any meaningful faults with this keyboard. They definitely did their homework.

 

My buddy Korg SG ProX feels like an old rag now...

[CyberGene]

As far as I understand, you'll have to keep the perspective to "off" when recording the demos in stereo for us so that we will be able to listen to the full sound with reverberations, resonances, etc. I think this was neglected when John Maul was recorded demoing the V-Piano and therefore the sound was artificially dry because no real piano could ever be recorded without its soundboard reverberating, etc. I really hope the sound of the V-piano is not that metallic as the one in John Maul's record, that's why I am looking for your demo I hope the metallic sound was a result of a mistake where recorded sound was made from only the dry output A which is actually the pure piano sound model output without soundboard resonances. The output B adds the richness and "woodiness" of the real piano sound supposing you are using the split perspective function. "Off" is probably supposed to be used with stereo speakers or headphones where everything is mixed down to only two channels.

[Dr.Innovation]

AT Costco today they had the top of the line Yamaha Clavinova (with all of the Super Articulation) and whatnot...

 

THAT sounds better than both the Roland, AND the PianoTeq IMO.

The dynamics, the resonance, the velocity, the damper, decay and most important tone is unmatched...

 

Carry on

[evildragon]

...but I guess it still doesn't have the real connection and playability that modelled instrument provides.

[Tomkeen]

The question is if he has actually played the V-piano. Saying that a Clavinova sounds better without having played the Roland makes no sense.

[Son of HuHefner]

AT Costco today they had the top of the line Yamaha Clavinova (with all of the Super Articulation) and whatnot... THAT sounds better than both the Roland, AND the PianoTeq IMO. The dynamics, the resonance, the velocity, the damper, decay and most important tone is unmatched... Carry on

sure, and you sing and look like Peter Gabriel

[goldenpiggy]

OK I recorded the demo tracks direct-to-CD via the digital out. I made sure "Sound Perspective" was OFF. You were right -- sounds like crap through 2 channels if Sound Perspective = Grand Ambience.

Where do you want me to send them? I used FLAC with compression 8, so the total size comes up to about 30MB (15 tracks). I can probably send them to you guys in several emails. (I'd rather not post them on public websites since these are probably copyrighted by Roland.)

Please email me if you want the files: goldenpiggy227@gmail.com

[Melodialworks]

I'm glad to say the sounds do not disappoint. For the first time, we have a digital piano that does not depend on built-in effects to sound good. Actually it sounds BETTER with the built-in effects turned down.

 

 

I have heard that the ambience sounds best when running four monitors, which you are not doing.

 

Utility / Sound Perspective presents three options:

 

(1) Off: sends the complete stereo sound with Ambience to both Outputs A and B.

 

(2) A: Dry

[goldenpiggy]

Lawrence,

I'm definitely not getting the most out of it in stereo; unfortunately I only have two speakers and no more loot to get any more!

As far as the sequencer, I'm talking about the built-in 1 channel sequencer. I didn't try recording with an external sequencer. Now I could have done something wrong or missed some settings (I don't think so), but it definitely did not capture the dynamics as I had played. Seemed like it "rounded" the velocity to fit the 127 MIDI levels (actually sounded less than 127 levels). It definitely did not capture the nuances as played (the V Piano has very good dynamics, so it was quite noticeable.)

I will try again. Still lots for me to learn and quite possibly operator error. Could be buggy software as the thing is so new. I definitely found one bug already: the digital output is 9dB too low. I thought it was intentional to preserve dynamic range without clipping, but in the course of recording the demo tracks it became apparent the digital out level was way way low. I'll have to contact Roland.