Test of Roland's V-PIANO and new PHA-III keyboard.

[Pr3Va1L]

Roland is certainly the least consistent, UI-wise. The SH-201 and V-Synth are incredibly well-implemented, so much so that quite a few schools use them to teach synthesis (the SH's signal flow is its layout and paint job).

 

 

 

The SH-201 is still like... 15 year old technology, isn't it?

 

It's basically a JP-8000...

[girevik]

'The Singularity is Near' by the man behind the Kurzweil synth - Ray Kurzweil http://singularity.com/

 

 

Somebody gave away his book "Age Of Spiritual Machines" - I picked that up and he says similar stuff about the acceleration of technological evolution. Where he goes a little nuts is the idea that someday humans will be able to upload their minds into machines and leave their bodies behind. Nobody will actually be forced into it but as more and more people get devices implanted into themselves for direct brain-Internet connections (a la Ghost In The Machine, Gibson's novels, etc.) those who won't do it will get increasingly left out.

 

Have you read Dan Simmons' Hyperion and Endymion novels?

[The Audacity Works]

I mean: Roland made the mighty S-770 in 1992, a $8,000 sampler that was in those days cutting edge, powerful, and awesome sounding. Today that sampler is a sub-function in a Fantom XR- a single rack space, with unbalance/i/o and no screen support and only 4 outputs.

The Fantom XR's sampling engine isn't based on the S-series at all. The only current product that maintains the S-series' partial-based sampling is the MV-8800.

And my happiness on the these units are based on the price I paid, but that doesn't make them "Pro"

For me, what makes the V-Synth "pro" is the fact that it's the only hardware digital synth I've played that can't be satisfactorily replaced by software. By that token, all ROMplers and other VAs are "amateur".

[evildragon]

Have you read Dan Simmons' Hyperion and Endymion novels?

Yes, I did Hyperion. Mind-blowing. But too abrupt ending, somehow.

[ChromaLord]

For me, what makes the V-Synth "pro" is the fact that it's the only hardware digital synth I've played that can't be satisfactorily replaced by software. By that token, all ROMplers and other VAs are "amateur".

 

 

So by that logic do you deem soft-synths professional?

 

Pro to me means it was designed from the ground-up to have no compromises or concerns about its price as well as working with 3rd party professional when exploring in the R&D stages.

Sure, any company needs to sell a high number of units to stay afloat- they do this by making compromises and cutting corners to sell to the masses.

[ChristianRock]

 

Have you read Dan Simmons' Hyperion and Endymion novels?

 

 

I have... pretty interesting stuff! I always thought they'll become classics some day.

 

As mentioned, Hyperion's ending sucks. I liked Endymion better but they're both very good...

[ChristianRock]

 

Pro to me means it was designed from the ground-up to have no compromises or concerns about its price as well as working with 3rd party professional when exploring in the R&D stages. Sure, any company needs to sell a high number of units to stay afloat- they do this by making compromises and cutting corners to sell to the masses.

 

 

I think you're being a bit utopic here... the market's changed. Today, ALL synth companies design a product after they have defined its price point. There is compromise everywhere in the hardware industry right now. That doesn't mean that these products aren't good or useful - they obviously are. But they do make compromises and the era of 5,000+ machines is over with the death of the Oasys (which still had compromises by the way).

[evildragon]

As mentioned, Hyperion's ending sucks. I liked Endymion better but they're both very good...

 

 

No no no, I didn't say it sucks. It was too rushed. But the idea described in the ending is a pretty decent mind{censored}. I loved it!

[ChristianRock]

No no no, I didn't say it sucks. It was too rushed. But the idea described in the ending is a pretty decent mind{censored}. I loved it!

Well I thought it sucked. It was a pretty big letdown considering the story that was building up... at least for me. But still an awesome book

[The Audacity Works]

 

I know, and thats my point exactly- Roland has cheapened what once was their crowning glory.

Not at all. Partial-based sampling has no place in the traditional ROMpler synth architecture of Fantoms. The Fantom is not an S-760, nor has it ever pretended to be. The MV-8800 is.

 

If the Fantom were to implement partial-based sampling, the whole engine would have to be rewritten for a feature that very few people care about these days

[girevik]

That's Ghost In The Shell

Lol, good catch. Great graphic novel, and great TV series too.

[evildragon]

GITS movie is pure epic.

[girevik]

Hyperion (2 parts) and Endymion (2 parts) are really one great 4-part epic novel, imo.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Battlestar Galactica writers took some inspiration from these novels, most notably the "machine God".

My buddy turned me on to these four great novels, which hit on the grand ideas on that Kurzweill describes in his book about the role of technology in the future of human evolution, the evolution of artificial life, etc. and juggles multiple characters and settings while keeping the story going on all fronts. There's are also sinister elements among the artificial life forms, but the relationships between AIs and humanity are richer than what is presented in Terminator and the Matrix.

[ChromaLord]

Not at all. Partial-based sampling has no place in the traditional ROMpler synth architecture of Fantoms. The Fantom is not an S-760, nor has it ever pretended to be. The MV-8800 is. If the Fantom were to implement partial-based sampling, the whole engine would have to be rewritten for a feature that very few people care about these days

[The Audacity Works]

 

I give up. You completely and TOTALLY did not understand my simple point in any way shape or form.

Oh, I most certainly did. Much of this is all subjective, and we're all friends here. There was some empirical misinformation, however. Like how the Fantom's sampling engine was supposed to have evolved from the partial-based S-series, or that the V-Synth GT can't import samples.

 

In the meantime, I spoke with tech support at Roland US today and snaked a bit more insight on the V-Piano:

 

1. No, the rental house I work through will not be able to buy direct, even if we buy four of 'em. The list price is $5995, the MSRP is $5995. My dealer (admittedly, a higher-end studio design firm) has several pre-sold, at... $5995.

 

2. There's an engine inside that allegedly learns the user's playing style over the course of a session, much like certain acoustic pianos slowly evolve to compliment its player's technique. If a different player sits down, the engine begins to learn their technique.

 

3. Polyphony is 264 (?)

[The Audacity Works]

Manual's posted:

http://lib.roland.co.jp/manual/en/dl_09-29612/V-Piano_e1.pdf

Reading now...

[Pianoman1976]

Have you read Dan Simmons' Hyperion and Endymion novels?

 

 

 

Nope, I'll check em out.

[Pianoman1976]

Back to the V-Piano!

when Full Compass actually sells a V-Piano for $4199 to someone this year, let us know

Here's what I've got so far without any haggling. $5091.29, which is $904 less than what everybody else is selling it for. Shipping included and no sales tax.
I'm certain I can bring it down from here too.

[Son of HuHefner]

Back to the V-Piano! Here's what I've got so far without any haggling. $5091.29, which is $904 less than what everybody else is selling it for. Shipping included and no sales tax. I'm certain I can bring it down from here too.

It sounds like a good deal at $5091. Is the V 2.5 times better than the Rd700gx ?

Is shipping ground ? You better pray Roland has made a sturdy box for your V-Piano. Don't assume

When I bought my Rd700GX a year ago, Fedx trashed the box and the styrofoam blanks inside were mostly broken in pieces.

Fortunately there was no damage to my GX. Roland definitely cheaped out on the box and protective styrofoam shell

[Pianoman1976]

It sounds like a good deal at $5091. Is the V 2.5 times better than the Rd700gx ?

 

 

The RD700GX is a very different type of piano - a typical stage piano with the soon to be outdated PHA-II keybed. It seems to be a nice piano, but it's missing the PHA-III. What I'm really after is the PHA-III.

 

The V-Piano, to me, seems like a very specialized very unique instrument that is proabably worth the extra money. I won't know for sure until I actually try it. Maybe they've just pulled off some incredible marketing and fooled most of us.

 

One of the intersting angles Roland is taking on the V-Piano is the way in which they describe how the V-Piano creates sound. The wording they use is somewhat deceiving (only my opinion). If it's true that it is simply piano modeling technology - then it's basically a highly refined, highly polished pianoteq type thing. Probably developed by software engineers then burned to a hardward chip. Yet the way they descibe it is as if inside the v-piano there is some magical mechanisim, (possibly even hammers and strings) that are somehow creating the sound. Read the manual and you will see. Now I know there's no hammers and strings, which would justify a $5000 price tag - so I'm not sure why they have marked it up so high. Maybe this thing cost a fortune to develop, but not so much to manufacture?

 

These sounds are produced by a virtual piano inside the V-Piano. Unlike the way in which conventional digital pianos create sound by

processing samples recorded from an acoustic piano, the V-Piano uses digital signal processing to model the numerous elements that

make up an acoustic piano, and combines these to create the sound of the piano.

The twenty-four

[Son of HuHefner]

The RD700GX is a very different type of piano - a typical stage piano with the soon to be outdated PHA-II keybed. It seems to be a nice piano, but it's missing the PHA-III. What I'm really after is the PHA-III. The V-Piano, to me, seems like a very specialized very unique instrument that is proabably worth the extra money. I won't know for sure until I actually try it. Maybe they've just pulled off some incredible marketing and fooled most of us. One of the intersting angles Roland is taking on the V-Piano is the way in which they describe how the V-Piano creates sound. The wording they use is somewhat deceiving (only my opinion). If it's true that it is simply piano modeling technology - then it's basically a highly refined, highly polished pianoteq type thing. Probably developed by software engineers then burned to a hardward chip. Yet the way they descibe it is as if inside the v-piano there is some magical mechanisim, (possibly even hammers and strings) that are somehow creating the sound. Read the manual and you will see. Now I know there's no hammers and strings, which would justify a $5000 price tag - so I'm not sure why they have marked it up so high. Maybe this thing cost a fortune to develop, but not so much to manufacture? These sounds are produced by a virtual piano inside the V-Piano. Unlike the way in which conventional digital pianos create sound by processing samples recorded from an acoustic piano, the V-Piano uses digital signal processing to model the numerous elements that make up an acoustic piano, and combines these to create the sound of the piano. The twenty-four

[girevik]

Actually, I was wondering about the weight of the V-Piano. Too heavy, imo, for a gigging 'board, but if it's intended for home use only, then weight won't be much of a factor.

[Pianoman1976]

Actually, I was wondering about the weight of the V-Piano. Too heavy, imo, for a gigging 'board, but if it's intended for home use only, then weight won't be much of a factor.

 

 

84 lbs.

 

The piano I'm using now is a Rhodes MK-80, which is 76 lbs - so an additional 8 lbs isn't going to rattle me too much.

 

A good way to visualize weight for any of you who have ever lifted weights at the gym is to use the bench press weights as a barometer. The very largest free weight you can put on the bar is 40 lbs. - the one that's the size of a large pizza. So the V-piano is about two of those. That helps me to determine where my cut off would be. For me 80 lbs is about the most I could handle weight wise in a piano.

 

Another interesting fact is the way in which Roland reccomends you do your speakers. The V-Piano is desinged to output to four speakers placed in front of the piano in 2 rows of 2. Each speaker get's a slightly different signal, based on the model and ambience you're using.

 

This is one feature that I will be skipping.

[The Audacity Works]

 

Now I know there's no hammers and strings, which would justify a $5000 price tag - so I'm not sure why they have marked it up so high. Maybe this thing cost a fortune to develop, but not so much to manufacture?

Not sure. The thing has four of Roland's flagship DSP processors, just for generating one piano sound. The Fantom-G, which can generate 16 parts, 22 effects, 24 audio tracks, and a 128-track sequencer, uses half the DSP chips.

 

One of the V-Piano's chips does nothing but manage the communication between the keybed and the sound engine. It also learns the user's playing style and adjusts the engine accordingly. As I understand it, there's a lot more under the hood than what Pianoteq is doing. Hell, you can tweak 8 or 9 parameters for each key separately.

 

The V-Piano allegedly took 10 years to develop. R&D isn't cheap, and has been known to run into the millions of dollars per year, even with smaller MI companies. Some people assume that the end cost of a unit should be the sum of its parts, and that's just criminal ignorance.

I know for certainty this is the first time in a very long time that I haven't been able to get my 30% off retail.

The only way you'd get your 30% off retail is if a store's dealer cost for every product you're interested in were, say, 40% off retail. That type of consistency doesn't exist.

 

If anything, you'd want to shoot for 10% over dealer cost, which may end up anywhere from 5% to 80% off retail, depending on the product.

 

When I was in retail, my very best loyal customers would get the 5-10% over cost deal. Our cost was determined by net price plus shipping. This ended up more than 5-10% over true cost much of the time, however, because we'd often get free shipping or bonus incentives or SPIFFs or end-of-year rebates, but that information was always nebulous on the sales floor. If my best customer in the world came in, I'd spend 15 minutes figuring out exactly where we stood on the product (free shipping and all incentives included), and give him 5-10% over that... Which sometimes looked like less than dealer cost on paper. This wasn't Guitar Center tho', and I did all the synth/recording buying, so I had a pretty good idea what we were paying. GC employees have absolutely no clue what their parent company pays for gear, and what their computers say dealer cost is... never is. Hell, I doubt the store manager even really knows.

 

With the V-Piano, unless you know exactly what a dealer is spending on these things (net, shipping, incentives, etc.), there's no way you can assume what the discount should be.

 

From what I remember, the discount on Roland keyboards, Boss pedals, V-Drums, and Roland digital pianos were all different percentages (as it was with Korg, Yamaha, and almost every other MI company with more than a handful of products). So even within the same manufacturer, your discount will be different.

 

Roland's American distributor is in Los Angeles tho', so factory shipping to the dealer will be less in Northridge than it would be in, say, New York.

[evildragon]

That helps me to determine where my cut off would be.

And where would your Resonance be?