It takes a Marine

[cloudnine]

Originally posted by rockapede First off, I have nothing against you, never have. However, statements like this bother me. I'm not really sure how anyone can think they "know" what Iraq did and did not have, or what Bush did or did not to. To push such arguments as fact (which, granted, you have not done here, but have in the past) is just as misguided as complete, unshakeable support of any government. They all lie, and the only "fact" is that no one really knows everything that goes on. You have your suspicions, as do I and millions of others, but they don't really make a valid argument.

 

 

I'm sorry, where are the weapons then?

 

Bush and Co. said they knew for a fact Iraq had weapons.

 

They have turned up none.

[SkidMarx]

Originally posted by Inearthed {censored} yeah man... Punching atheists, muslims, and fags in the face is how you show your love for America!

only if they deserve it. It's the unjustified punch in the face that is oh so unAmerican.

[DeathMonkey]

Originally posted by DoubleBarrel bring it on, I'm a Marine.......I can take it. In fact, I defended the rights of idiots to say what they want, whenever they want, when they want........right or wrong. So, in a way, every post on this (flaming or not) is a thank you:D

 

 

 

So what's funny about this is that I have been a political activist for almost 20 years - nothing too crazy, just abortion rights, women's rights, Gay rights, and Civil Liberties/ Civil Rights stuff.

 

In that time, I have been maced/peppersprayed (not by the police but by Christian counter-protesters), shot at (twice, once at a Planned Parenthood clinic, once at an anti-Klan counter-demonstration), beaten or hit, by fists and by thrown rocks, bottles, etc more than a few times. I have had death threats leveled against me, I have been threatened with bodily harm, and I have been attacked for merely showing up to rallies and vigils.

 

I have wound up in the hospital more times than I care to remember.

 

No one pays me, no one defends me, I do it because I believe in peaceful protest to accomplish political change. I show up against a foe that has shown itself to be willing to use deadly force to silence me and those like me.

 

Yet somehow, people who have never seen frontline combat think that somehow I am "not a patriot".

 

I give to four charities a year - a Veteran's Fund, a Firefighters Fund, a Police Fund, and Red Cross. I also support Veteran's Rights, and have marched to keep politicos from cutting VA benefits. My brothers are both vets, my last singer was a Desert Storm Vet, I have marched with Vets Against War groups, I have marched with the VFW members in Nashville, I rallied and wrote letters against the Bay Area base closings back in the 90's.

 

When I say "I support the troops" I ain't talking paying Wal*Mart some 10 bucks for a {censored}ing ribbon for my car or a flag to wave to feel good about sending young people to die for American Business interests. I mean a commitent to ensure that we use those lives and those talents in a meaningful way. I mean making sure that they are not left out in the cold by an ungrateful nation that throws parades while they cut health care benefits.

 

The Marines aren't fighting for "my right to say stupid {censored}", they are fighting for my right to wage my OWN fight against bigotry, inequality, hatred, selfishness, greed, oppression and exploitation.

 

The enemy at home is retards who think that a White, Christian, Straight America is worth killing for. Oddly enough, it is the same thinking the Marines are fighting against - just a different homogeneity.

 

So while I appreciate your sacrifice, and your defense of this country, if you think that those four years somehow gives you the right to challenge what I have done for this country for 20 {censored}ing years, go suck a tailpipe you goat{censored}ing windbag.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by DoubleBarrel But free speech is protected by violence.

No.

First -- notice that even if that were true, that still wouldn't make them the same thing!

Second, that's not true. Free speech is protected by the collective will of the citizens who value free speech as a FUNDAMENTAL NECESSITY to our society's survival.

When the people don't value it, we lose it.

Witness the travesty of the so-called "free speech" zones around Bush's public appearances. Dissenters are separated from the masses and roped off somewhere where their dissent cannot be heard -- the ANTITHESIS of free speech, and because most Americans don't care, the government gets away with it.

Whose free speech is being protected by the violence in Iraq? Not mine.

Too many other problems with that "logic" to go into here....

[rockapede]

Originally posted by cloudnine I'm sorry, where are the weapons then? Bush and Co. said they knew for a fact Iraq had weapons. They have turned up none.

 

 

You missed my point. I'm not saying there were or weren't WMD, and in fact I'm inclined to believe there weren't. However, I'm not presumptuous enough to think that from my position in the world that I can state factually either way. Neither can you. There are too many variables.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by rockapede Unfortunate, but true.

Nope. See above.

[TheBurninator]

Originally posted by DeathMonkey So what's funny about this is that I have been a political activist for almost 20 years - nothing too crazy, just abortion rights, women's rights, Gay rights, and Civil Liberties/ Civil Rights stuff. In that time, I have been maced/peppersprayed (not by the police but by Christian counter-protesters), shot at (twice, once at a Planned Parenthood clinic, once at an anti-Klan counter-demonstration), beaten or hit, by fists and by thrown rocks, bottles, etc more than a few times. I have had death threats leveled against me, I have been threatened with bodily harm, and I have been attacked for merely showing up to rallies and vigils. I have wound up in the hospital more times than I care to remember. No one pays me, no one defends me, I do it because I believe in peaceful protest to accomplish political change. I show up against a foe that has shown itself to be willing to use deadly force to silence me and those like me. Yet somehow, people who have never seen frontline combat think that somehow I am "not a patriot". I give to four charities a year - a Veteran's Fund, a Firefighters Fund, a Police Fund, and Red Cross. I also support Veteran's Rights, and have marched to keep politicos from cutting VA benefits. My brothers are both vets, my last singer was a Desert Storm Vet, I have marched with Vets Against War groups, I have marched with the VFW members in Nashville, I rallied and wrote letters against the Bay Area base closings back in the 90's. When I say "I support the troops" I ain't talking paying Wal*Mart some 10 bucks for a {censored}ing ribbon for my car or a flag to wave to feel good about sending young people to die for American Business interests. I mean a commitent to ensure that we use those lives and those talents in a meaningful way. I mean making sure that they are not left out in the cold by an ungrateful nation that throws parades while they cut health care benefits. The Marines aren't fighting for "my right to say stupid {censored}", they are fighting for my right to wage my OWN fight against bigotry, inequality, hatred, selfishness, greed, oppression and exploitation. The enemy at home is retards who think that a White, Christian, Straight America is worth killing for. Oddly enough, it is the same thinking the Marines are fighting against - just a different homogeneity. So while I appreciate your sacrifice, and your defense of this country, if you think that those four years somehow gives you the right to challenge what I have done for this country for 20 {censored}ing years, go suck a tailbag you goat{censored}ing windbag.

 

 

doublebarrel = OWN3D

[SkidMarx]

Originally posted by grumphh Well, the use of (and gloryfication of) violence against people of differing opinion pretty much characterizes fascism. I'd say you are pretty close too. At least you apparently agree with the idea that it is good to deny people the right to free speech through the use of violence.

 

 

it depends on how they express their opinion.

[cloudnine]

Originally posted by rockapede You missed my point. I'm not saying there were or weren't WMD, and in fact I'm inclined to believe there weren't. However, I'm not presumptuous enough to think that from my position in the world that I can state factually either way. Neither can you. There are too many variables.

 

 

There was no point. Your argument is flawed.

 

I can categorically state that no WMDs have been found in Iraq, which was the reason for the invasion in the first place.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by Deuterium If it was a class on "philosophy of religion" it would be exceedingly innapropriate and out of place.

How do you figure?

Furthermore, a Professor commands a great deal of respect from young students.

Sometimes -- but not very frequently anymore, sad to say.

Some students who might wish to speak out, OR LEAVE the classroom, might very well be intimidated against doing such, for fear of being singled out by the Professor, or likewise "marked" to receive a poor grade.

The professor would be in serious ethical/professional trouble for lowering someone's grade based on personal belief/opinion -- and it would be on the professor to show documentation to justify the contested grade.

As for those "too intimidated" to deal with differing viewpoints in class, perhaps they're not ready for college yet?

I also assume that it was not a "class" on "modern athesism"...as then the story wouldn't really make sense.

Ah, but the story is BASED on wild assumptions that make no sense!

[Inearthed]

Originally posted by rockapede That's odd, because I already did, and I fail to see your point.

 

My point was that the soldier heard something he disagreed with and supposedly exercised his free speech to knock the professor out. My crappy analogy, but, whatever...

 

If someone invites me to hit them in the face and I do it, guess who gets hauled off to jail when the day is done, me.

[cloudnine]

Also, considering that the Marines havent been "defending" America (or even American values, since America has never been in danger of invasion) since 1945, I think the whole premise of this is flawed.

[rockapede]

Originally posted by draelyc No. First -- notice that even if that were true, that still wouldn't make them the same thing! Second, that's not true. Free speech is protected by the collective will of the citizens who value free speech as a FUNDAMENTAL NECESSITY to our society's survival. When the people don't value it, we lose it. Witness the travesty of the so-called "free speech" zones around Bush's public appearances. Dissenters are separated from the masses and roped off somewhere where their dissent cannot be heard -- the ANTITHESIS of free speech, and because most Americans don't care, the government gets away with it. Whose free speech is being protected by the violence in Iraq? Not mine. Too many other problems with that "logic" to go into here....

And when a certain group of people don't value free speech (as will always be the case) violence is the way it is protected. I want to agree with you, I really do, I just think you are not being realistic. I do, however, agree with the second half of your post completely. Such government practice is shameful.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by DoubleBarrel What the first sin in the 10 commandments ???? the one the professor broke ?

 

 

Sorry -- don't understand your question(s)... Rephrase? Thnx!

[potaetoes]

 

Once upon a time there was a guy who didn't believe in god. The infidel was punched in the face.

 

The end.

[SkidMarx]

Originally posted by cloudnine I'm sorry, where are the weapons then? Bush and Co. said they knew for a fact Iraq had weapons. They have turned up none.

none? NONE, Sean? Oh come on, they got the single most dangerous WMD in the Middle East: Saddam Hussein. Now all we need is a good old fashioned hanging. Or better yet, a beheading! Wouldn't that be great?

[Inearthed]

Originally posted by potaetoes Once upon a time there was a guy who didn't believe in god. The infidel was punched in the face. The end.

 

 

I like this version better.

[rockapede]

Originally posted by cloudnine There was no point. Your argument is flawed. I can categorically state that no WMDs have been found in Iraq, which was the reason for the invasion in the first place.

 

 

You can state none were found. You cannot state none existed.

[cloudnine]

Originally posted by SkidMarx none? NONE, Sean? Oh come on, they got the single most dangerous WMD in the Middle East: Saddam Hussein. Now all we need is a good old fashioned hanging. Or better yet, a beheading! Wouldn't that be great?

Gimme a break Skid, even you cant believe that {censored}.

[potaetoes]

by the way, i love how the marine, sworn to defend the constitution and the country, violently attacks a citizen exercising their freedom of religion.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by DeathMonkey So what's funny about this is that I have been a political activist for almost 20 years - nothing too crazy, just abortion rights, women's rights, Gay rights, and Civil Liberties/ Civil Rights stuff. In that time, I have been maced/peppersprayed (not by the police but by Christian counter-protesters), shot at (twice, once at a Planned Parenthood clinic, once at an anti-Klan counter-demonstration), beaten or hit, by fists and by thrown rocks, bottles, etc more than a few times. I have had death threats leveled against me, I have been threatened with bodily harm, and I have been attacked for merely showing up to rallies and vigils. I have wound up in the hospital more times than I care to remember. No one pays me, no one defends me, I do it because I believe in peaceful protest to accomplish political change. I show up against a foe that has shown itself to be willing to use deadly force to silence me and those like me. Yet somehow, people who have never seen frontline combat think that somehow I am "not a patriot". I give to four charities a year - a Veteran's Fund, a Firefighters Fund, a Police Fund, and Red Cross. I also support Veteran's Rights, and have marched to keep politicos from cutting VA benefits. My brothers are both vets, my last singer was a Desert Storm Vet, I have marched with Vets Against War groups, I have marched with the VFW members in Nashville, I rallied and wrote letters against the Bay Area base closings back in the 90's. When I say "I support the troops" I ain't talking paying Wal*Mart some 10 bucks for a {censored}ing ribbon for my car or a flag to wave to feel good about sending young people to die for American Business interests. I mean a commitent to ensure that we use those lives and those talents in a meaningful way. I mean making sure that they are not left out in the cold by an ungrateful nation that throws parades while they cut health care benefits. The Marines aren't fighting for "my right to say stupid {censored}", they are fighting for my right to wage my OWN fight against bigotry, inequality, hatred, selfishness, greed, oppression and exploitation. The enemy at home is retards who think that a White, Christian, Straight America is worth killing for. Oddly enough, it is the same thinking the Marines are fighting against - just a different homogeneity. So while I appreciate your sacrifice, and your defense of this country, if you think that those four years somehow gives you the right to challenge what I have done for this country for 20 {censored}ing years, go suck a tailpipe you goat{censored}ing windbag.

+ 1 trillion!!!

Every American citizen should have to read this post before being allowed to vote!

As I have said to numerous soldiers, I'll now say to you: thank you for your service and sacrifice in defense of this nation!

[rockapede]

Originally posted by Inearthed My point was that the soldier heard something he disagreed with and supposedly exercised his free speech to knock the professor out. My crappy analogy, but, whatever... If someone invites me to hit them in the face and I do it, guess who gets hauled off to jail when the day is done, me.

 

 

Ok, I follow you. I took his statement on the protection of free speech out of context, you were right. However, on its own, I believe it is still correct.

[draelyc]

Originally posted by rockapede And when a certain group of people don't value free speech (as will always be the case) violence is the way it is protected. I want to agree with you, I really do, I just think you are not being realistic. I do, however, agree with the second half of your post completely. Such government practice is shameful.

 

 

So, you're recommending armed rebellion against the American government? Just to be clear....

 

I've been called unrealistic more times than Stephen Hawking can count. No offense, but that's a b.s. response. I'm being perfectly realistic -- if society doen't value something, that something will be lost or destroyed.

 

Violence doesn't protect speech -- it prevents it. Sometimes, it's used to prevent the speech of a group that doesn't value free speech, but that's NOT the same thing as promoting or protecting free speech.

[grumphh]

Originally posted by SkidMarx it depends on how they express their opinion.

no.

As long as there is only an expression of ideas there is no valid reason to react with violence.

Remember, we are talking ideas here, not insults.

God does not exist for me, so all you religious nutcases (including draelyc ) just have to face that.
As long as i don't spit on your religious paraphernalia or otherwise attack your beliefs physically (which i have no reason or wish to do BTW, because i can respect that you believe different things than i do), you cannot attack me for actually speaking out about my lack of belief.

The right to free speech, remember?

[draelyc]

Originally posted by grumphh no. As long as there is only an expression of ideas there is no valid reason to react with violence. Remember, we are talking ideas here, not insults. God does not exist for me, so all you religious nutcases (including draelyc ) just have to face that. As long as i don't spit on your religious paraphernalia or otherwise attack your beliefs physically (which i have no reason or wish to do BTW, because i can respect that you believe different things than i do), you cannot attack me for actually speaking out about my lack of belief. The right to free speech, remember?

Well said. Oh, btw --