Members rockapede Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc So, you're recommending armed rebellion against the American government? Just to be clear....I've been called unrealistic more times than Stephen Hawking can count. No offense, but that's a b.s. response. I'm being perfectly realistic -- if society doen't value something, that something will be lost or destroyed.Violence doesn't protect speech -- it prevents it. Sometimes, it's used to prevent the speech of a group that doesn't value free speech, but that's NOT the same thing as promoting or protecting free speech. If enough people believed that the government was seriously obstructing free speech then, well: "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." Are we, as a nation, at that point? No, not in my opinion, though others would disagree. Do I still believe I live in the greatest nation on earth? Yes. Will most of our current issues with abuse of power disappear in 2008? I hope so. You are talking about a perfect world. However, in the real world, and as shown by history, violence (while a last resort) is at times the only defense of our rights. That is the only point I am trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tequila_titan Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Blah, blah, blah, {censored}ing blah. There, I exercised my right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockapede Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by tequila_titan Blah, blah, blah, {censored}ing blah. There, I exercised my right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc Well said. Oh, btw -- Yeah, well.... ermmm "nutcase" might be too strong a word ... But you have to admit that the whole idea about people believing in some supernatural all-controlling being is quite on the absurd side, right? I'll take hinduism or buddhism any day over any monotheistic religion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by grumphh Yeah, well.... ermmm "nutcase" might be too strong a word ... But you have to admit that the whole idea about people believing in some supernatural all-controlling being is quite on the absurd side, right? I'll take hinduism or buddhism any day over any monotheistic religion Actually, Hinduism/Buddhism are ultimately monotheistic... But that's another discussion for another forum. I respect where you're coming from -- it's the ol' Han Solo philosophy: "Kid, I've flown from one side o' this galaxy to the other, an' I've never seen anything to make me believe there's some all-powerful "force" controlling my destiny. It's all a bunch of simple tricks and non-sense." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc Actually, Hinduism/Buddhism are ultimately monotheistic... But that's another discussion for another forum. I respect where you're coming from -- it's the ol' Han Solo philosophy: "Kid, I've flown from one side o' this galaxy to the other, an' I've never seen anything to make me believe there's some all-powerful "force" controlling my destiny. It's all a bunch of simple tricks and non-sense." Well - at least in Star Wars you get to see that the force actually works.In real life i have yet to see the effects of any god meddling with our ... [ominous voice] destiny - most of it is still hearsay as far as i am concerned And as for buddhism/hinduism - what makes them not-monotheistic is that they don't attribute any intent to the basic life force, it just exists, and it is up to the individual to find his/her way there - and yes, definitely a topic for another forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ripfence Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Yep, even Moses got called out for it. Numbers 20Originally posted by draelyc Most mainstream versions of Christian theology classify it as a sin to equate oneself with God Almighty. The professor asked God to strike him down; in taking that action upon himself, the Marine could be considered to be committing the sin of pride.For us (the readers) to buy the argument that the Marine was "following orders," we'd need to *see* in the story God Himself ordering the Marine to be the instrument through which the professor was to be smitten down.And that would make the story even less convincing for a great many readers..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deltones Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc Ah, a man of great TV taste. Your avatar was indeed one of the best episode of the serie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Romanian Reaper Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 I liked the story but then again I'm military. People take crap too seriously.Besides, I'm tired of the same old left celebrities, joining up with Cindy Sheehan when it is convienient for a good story, etc. It's ridiculous. That lady is a psycho. I wish the marine in the story would have knocked her on her ass. She is an embarrassment and no different than Jane Fonda was during Vietnam. I have no problem with people being against the war, against the President, etc. That is certainly your choice. My problem is when people step over THAT line. Everyone here knows what that line is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by rockapede If enough people believed that the government was seriously obstructing free speech then, well: "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." Are we, as a nation, at that point? No, not in my opinion, though others would disagree. Nicely put -- I'm following your point clearly, and at least in broad terms, I'm now agreeing with you to the extent that I agree with Jefferson. We could still argue about whether such overthrow could hypothetically be achieved without violence.... Do I still believe I live in the greatest nation on earth? Yes. Not to pick a different fight, but I think this question/point is not really relevant... Will most of our current issues with abuse of power disappear in 2008? I hope so.Agreed. You are talking about a perfect world.No! I'm talking about this world, the one we live in right now, the only one. What keeps this world from being "perfect," as you assume it is not? The answer is the a lethal combination of ignorance, apathy, and/or fatalism. The only reason the world isn't "perfect" (and I'm not saying it isn't) would be because we human being refuse to take responsibility for making it perfect and simply accept our own weaknesses and depredations as "natural."[/sermon] However, in the real world, and as shown by history, violence (while a last resort) is at times the only defense of our rights.History has clearly shown that violence is always a failing and an admission of defeat. That's why rebuilding always must follow warfare. It is in the rebuilding that rights are defended.Violence only stops and/or destroys. It cannot create or defend. That is the only point I am trying to make. We're really arguing semantics at this point. I'm just trying to offer a slightly different understanding of the concept of violence than perhaps you're used to....But it seems we agree about many of the baseline principles involved, which is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by grumphh Well - at least in Star Wars you get to see that the force actually works. In real life i have yet to see the effects of any god meddling with our ... [ominous voice] destiny - most of it is still hearsay as far as i am concerned And as for buddhism/hinduism - what makes them not-monotheistic is that they don't attribute any intent to the basic life force, it just exists, and it is up to the individual to find his/her way there - and yes, definitely a topic for another forum A) Understood. And B) Werd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by Ripfence Yep, even Moses got called out for it. Numbers 20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by Deltones Ah, a man of great TV taste. Your avatar was indeed one of the best episode of the serie. Thanks! That series is freakin' phenomenal, imho.Btw, if you've seen the Serenity film, you'll laugh your arse off at this:http://www.jerrythefrogproductions.com/Serenity.html:D:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by Romanian Reaper I liked the story but then again I'm military. People take crap too seriously. Besides, I'm tired of the same old left celebrities, joining up with Cindy Sheehan when it is convienient for a good story, etc. It's ridiculous. That lady is a psycho. I wish the marine in the story would have knocked her on her ass. She is an embarrassment and no different than Jane Fonda was during Vietnam. I have no problem with people being against the war, against the President, etc. That is certainly your choice. My problem is when people step over THAT line. Everyone here knows what that line is. I think a lot of people disagree about what that line is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ripfence Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Actually I believe Draelyc is a professed Christian. Originally posted by grumphh Yeah, well.... ermmm "nutcase" might be too strong a word ... But you have to admit that the whole idea about people believing in some supernatural all-controlling being is quite on the absurd side, right? I'll take hinduism or buddhism any day over any monotheistic religion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockapede Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc We're really arguing semantics at this point. I'm just trying to offer a slightly different understanding of the concept of violence than perhaps you're used to.... And for that I am appreciative. My opinion has not changed, nor has yours I'm sure, but it's nice to debate the issue for once with someone who can make a good point without resorting to hateful garbage. I do feel I understand better where you are coming from, so . Originally posted by draelyc But it seems we agree about many of the baseline principles involved, which is Agreed. I'm just too much of a cynic, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knut E Evenmo Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by DoubleBarrel I spent 4 years in the Marines. I am proud to call this man a fellow marine. Semper Fi Because he is a bully? Is it impossible for him to leave the violence at the battlefield? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deltones Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc Thanks! That series is freakin' phenomenal, imho. Btw, if you've seen the Serenity film, you'll laugh your arse off at this: http://www.jerrythefrogproductions.com/Serenity.html:D:D Great link! You know, if they did a musical of this like they did for Evil Dead (great, great show), it would be totally badass.That Jayne handpuppet rules!Err, oh yeah, to make this on topic... Euh... Kill them all, let God sort them out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Blackfire Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by DoubleBarrel I spent 4 years in the Marines. I am proud to call this man a fellow marine. Semper Fi A United States Marine was attending some college courses between assignments. He had completed missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. One of the courses had a professor who was an avowed atheist and a member of the ACLU. One day the professor shocked the class when he came in. He looked to the ceiling and flatly stated, "God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you exactly 15 minutes." The lecture room fell silent. You could hear a pin drop. Ten minutes went by and the professor proclaimed, "Here I am God. I'm still waiting." It got down to the last couple of minutes when the Marine got out of his chair, went up to the professor, and cold-cocked him knocking him off the platform. The professor was out cold. The Marine went back to his seat and sat there, silently. The other students were shocked and stunned and sat there looking on in silence. The professor eventually came to, noticeably shaken, looked at the Marine and asked, "What the hell is the matter with you? Why did you do that?" The Marine calmly replied, "God was too busy today protecting America's soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid {censored} and act like an asshole. ................So, He sent me." Since I"m probably one of the only ones that is on your side:D, i think this is a great story. Just look at all the feathers that got ruffled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DoubleBarrel Posted July 10, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by DeathMonkey So what's funny about this is that I have been a political activist for almost 20 years - nothing too crazy, just abortion rights, women's rights, Gay rights, and Civil Liberties/ Civil Rights stuff. So while I appreciate your sacrifice, and your defense of this country, if you think that those four years somehow gives you the right to challenge what I have done for this country for 20 {censored}ing years, go suck a tailpipe you goat{censored}ing windbag. I don't see that you've done anything for this country. What you have done is create a public nusiance, and unrest to cater to your own political adgenda. All you have done is whine like a little bitch. Sorry, but that does not equal Marine Corps service.........not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blargh Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by DoubleBarrel I don't see that you've done anything for this country. What you have done is create a public nusiance, and unrest to cater to your own political adgenda. All you have done is whine like a little bitch. Sorry, but that does not equal Marine Corps service.........not even close. ...and what exactly did you do in the marines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockapede Posted July 10, 2006 Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by DoubleBarrel I don't see that you've done anything for this country. What you have done is create a public nusiance, and unrest to cater to your own political adgenda. All you have done is whine like a little bitch.Sorry, but that does not equal Marine Corps service.........not even close. He was exercising his rights as a citizen of this country, rights you served to protect. The fact that you and I might disagree with his stance on whatever issue doesn't change the fact that such actions are a very large part of what makes this country great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DoubleBarrel Posted July 10, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by draelyc Sorry -- don't understand your question(s)... Rephrase? Thnx! ok, let me use small words so you don't get confused.Open the bible (if you even have one) Find the 10 commandments. What is the first one on the list ? The first commandment ? What does it say ? type the first commandment out & read it.Once you understand that, I'll show you how the professor broke it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DoubleBarrel Posted July 10, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by blargh ...and what exactly did you do in the marines I knocked out college professors:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DoubleBarrel Posted July 10, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 10, 2006 Originally posted by rockapede He was exercising his rights as a citizen of this country, rights you served to protect. The fact that you and I might disagree with his stance on whatever issue doesn't change the fact that such actions are a very large part of what makes this country great. But to equate that with uniformed military service absurd at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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