Members Corso2 Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe I agree with this statement of his: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe you dishonor our nation and our President when you cheapen him as you have...as if you could do better....complaining doesn't help anything. That's just pure bull...plain and simple. For at least the third time now, I'll state that I voted for W in one of his bids...so this doesn't come from your accused "liberal" slant...but this guy has embarrassed himself with political blunders and gaffes numerous times. Please don't tell me how smart he is...we all know he got through college with the gentleman's "C". Before anyone gets uppity and says "yeah but...but...but he went to Harvard..." Sure he did...after the University of Texas rejected his application. And again...don't tell me about their "intel"...you PROVED with the document YOU provided...the intel sucked. (Relative to the Iraqi threat.) And as for me doing any better...that's another BS argument...I'd venture a guess that there are thousands of people more capable of running this country. The biggest thing he has going for him is pedigree. I certainly do not dishonor our country by pointing out his mistakes...I hold him accountable. This man has a lot of blood on his hands...as a former soldier, that pisses me off. Look, I'll admit, a lot of very unfortunate {censored} has happened under his watch...but he has demonstrated an unwillingness to apologize for mistakes...and you call me arrogant? I'm not complaining...nor am I sitting around on my ass, fearful of anyone with a different point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Next election maybe your guy (or gal?) will get voted in and your ideology will be advanced? I don't foster an ideology...they're used as weapons. I have beliefs...but as for your point...something tells me I'll be sorely disappointed with the choice of candidates from both parties. Regardless, I'll still vote...and let the winner's actions/reactions to events dictate my support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by Corso2 First of all, the pastor is right, and God bless him. May more eyes in the church be opened to how they are being used by evil men in the interests of hatred, war, greed, despoiling of God's creation, and willful disregard of poverty and suffering. As a Christian myself who has always had a hard time finding a church that hadn't been co-opted by the devil in that manner, it does my heart good to see a man so inspired of the Holy Spirit. Second of all, he himself says he is no liberal, being opposed to abortion and homosexuality. What he has realized, though, is exactly what I said....the church is being used by evil, for evil. Remember, Satan is the deceiver, and anti-Christ is described as being hypocritical and falsely pious. I don't think of Anti-Christ as a man, but as a movement, and the religious right is Anti-Christ. They are the Pharisees, the Hypocrites, the money-changers in the Temple. Remember, only one thing made Christ angry, and that was hypocrisy and false piety, being "religious" in public and concealing an evil heart. Those who crucified Him were the religious right of their time. But anyway...if one strikes your cheek, show him the other so he may strike it as well. If one steals your coat, give him your cloak as well. When the disciple drew the sword and cut off the soldiers' ear, Jesus healed the soldier and admonished the disciple. Now go ahead, I know what you will say, because it is what all rightist "Christians" say when I confront them in this manner. Do me a favor and read: "When is it Right to Fight" by Dr. Robert Morey...I was a pacifist Christian and his book challenged me to rethink and isogete the text in much more detail than your typical layman Christian... Im not in favor of war (I dont think many are...) but am in favor of DEFENDING myself and other innocents from those that are aggressively evil... check all the Scriptures: Jesus did not teach pacifism...I can give you no less than 14 examples of Jesus acknowledgment of just war.. did Jesus tell Peter to "sheath his sword"? ......or did He tell him to "get rid of it" and then rebuke him for physical violence?...if Jesus openly taught pacifism, Peter, by that time, would not have a sword in his posession... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin I don't foster an ideology...they're used as weapons. I have beliefs...but as for your point...something tells me I'll be sorely disappointed with the choice of candidates from both parties. Regardless, I'll still vote...and let the winner's actions/reactions to events dictate my support. I suppose you will never be satisfied then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin That's just pure bull...plain and simple. For at least the third time now, I'll state that I voted for W in one of his bids...so this doesn't come from your accused "liberal" slant...but this guy has embarrassed himself with political blunders and gaffes numerous times. Please don't tell me how smart he is...we all know he got through college with the gentleman's "C". Before anyone gets uppity and says "yeah but...but...but he went to Harvard..." Sure he did...after the University of Texas rejected his application. And again...don't tell me about their "intel"...you PROVED with the document YOU provided...the intel sucked. (Relative to the Iraqi threat.) And as for me doing any better...that's another BS argument...I'd venture a guess that there are thousands of people more capable of running this country. The biggest thing he has going for him is pedigree. I certainly do not dishonor our country by pointing out his mistakes...I hold him accountable. This man has a lot of blood on his hands...as a former soldier, that pisses me off. Look, I'll admit, a lot of very unfortunate {censored} has happened under his watch...but he has demonstrated an unwillingness to apologize for mistakes...and you call me arrogant? I'm not complaining...nor am I sitting around on my ass, fearful of anyone with a different point of view. you, seem to me to be "the angry one"....maybe we should just play our guitars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitar shmoe Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin Wrong again...just making an observation based on this thread. Truthfully, if you and I were having this discussion face to face in a bar...I'd have no problem buying you a beer (if you were so inclined). From my perspective in this thread, you accuse anyone with a different viewpoint from yours as a "LIBERAL", pushing some type of subversive agenda upon the masses. It appears highly hypocritical...that's my opinion. forgive me for "rushing to judgment" here...when you started acting and complaining like the extreme left-wing liberals I simply assumed you were one of em....my bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Corso2 Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Do me a favor and read: "When is it Right to Fight" by Dr. Robert Morey...I was a pacifist Christian and his book challenged me to rethink and isogete the text in much more detail than your typical layman Christian...Im not in favor of war (I dont think many are...) but am in favor of DEFENDING myself and other innocents from those that are aggressively evil...check all the Scriptures: Jesus did not teach pacifism...I can give you no less than 14 examples of Jesus acknowledgment of just war..did Jesus tell Peter to "sheath his sword"? ......or did He tell him to "get rid of it" and then rebuke him for physical violence?...if Jesus openly taught pacifism, Peter, by that time, would not have a sword in his posession... Well, if it helps you to rationalize war, and that is something you have decided you need to do, is any thing I say going to change your mind? You are even able to selectively overlook the teachings of Christ Himself, so what hope do I have? But, fine. Let's say I agree with you about "Just War". Ideally, I believe that what Jesus was teaching was that the cycle of violence must be broken, and that a Christian is willing to die in the service of that ideal. Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies. BUT, we do not live in an ideal world, so maybe the best we can do is to only fight "Just" wars. Have you ever heard of a Christian psychologist/philospher called M. Scott Peck? His most famous book is "The Road Less Traveled". A less famous book he wrote was "People of the Lie: Toward Understanding the Psychology of Human Evil". Every right-wing Christian should read that...its main premise is that a crucial component of evil is abdication of responsibilty, the ability to lie to oneself about evil acts one commits or condones. That when confronted with evidence that what one is doing is wrong, the evil person has a highly developed ability to rationalize it until he believes he is actually doing something good, or even Godly. With this in mind, why is it that when discussing justice regarding our current war against the Muslim version of the Religious Right, conservatives and Christians are not able to accept responsibility for what role the West had in creating this situation? I tell you, I think of that book every time I see someone professing to be a Christian completely discounting the idea that maybe 80 years of bad policy led to our current predicament, and that what is "just" and what is "defense" is very much up for debate. Very often, conservatives and especially conservative Christians, are the People of the Lie. So, very simply, I put it to you like this, and I hope you can be honest in your response. Iraq did not attack us. The deaths of 3000 Americans at the hands of evil men was exploited by other evil men who also exploit people of faith. The cheap oil that fueled the industrial revolution and the rise of the USA came at great espense to the people of the Middle East, who lived under despotic dictators of our choosing to ensure the oil continued to flow. Radical Islam was encouraged by the West as a safeguard against atheist Soviet influence. The right wing in America are lying to themselves about what is just. They claim the mantle of faith, but they are acting in the interests of suffering and evil. It breaks my heart to see people who really do want to follow Christ being led so far astray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DirtyBird Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe forgive me for "rushing to judgment" here...when you started acting and complaining like the extreme left-wing liberals I simply assumed you were one of em....my bad Maybe you should be less concerned with partisan hackery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe forgive me for "rushing to judgment" here...when you started acting and complaining like the extreme left-wing liberals I simply assumed you were one of em....my bad So anyone who doesn't agree with your myopic point of view is an "extreme left-wing liberal"? My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by Corso2 Well, if it helps you to rationalize war, and that is something you have decided you need to do, is any thing I say going to change your mind? You are even able to selectively overlook the teachings of Christ Himself, so what hope do I have? I'd say this sums up about 17 pages worth of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin I'd say this sums up about 17 pages worth of this thread. I'm not going to say THIS war is the most honorable and justified one ever in the history of mankind... But I thank God that certain Menthroughout history had the courage to go to war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by 17 Tubes I'm not going to say THIS war is the most honorable and justified one ever in the history of mankind...But I thank God that certain Menthroughout history had the courage to go to war. No arguments from me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe I'm sorry you see only negative.... Mini-rant: I was in my late 20's when I was moved into middle managment (at a small company that I worked for 20 years)...when I became 'boss' all my (so called) working buddies started treating me MUCH differently...nothing had changed other than a promotion...I started getting JUDGED! everything I did was called into question...those judging me where unaware of the constraints that I was working under (really, they didn't care...). They just wanted to make my life harder because of envy?, jealousy? or, they were just 'bad' people. No matter what my explanation for problems or decisions I was always judged and it was always negative....in their mind I was an incompetent, idiotic, irrational moron (never mind that I turned a small family owned company into a 50 employee multi million dollar corporation)...The owner liked me!! cause I made him tons of money!!!! most of my employees liked me too (except a few of my 'so called' friends from when I was equal employee with them) I promoted them and paid them VERY WELL and still I got judged and treated with contempt....The owner died and his step son brought in his 26 year old daughter to run the company and 6 months later I was fired. I own my own company now and am VERY SUCCESSFUL thank you....I don't get judged because I show my employees all the information I have to make a decision and ask them what they think...I have 17 employees and all of them love working for me. If someone has a question as to why we do things I ask them how they would like it done and we reason it through together....at the end of the day...I hold the responsibility bag though. (BTW, my old company run by the 26 year old is almost out of business (on paper they are gone...), they have 11 employees and only 2 of em speak english, all the experienced employees have left) all this to say: I identify with GW....he gets beat down... and by a bunch of people that aren't capable of judging him. He is roasted in the media on forums in our country and by our enemies....yet, terrorists are dead, our enemies are fleeing and we have avoided terrorist activity in the states....he gets results ...and you are still alive and not the victim of a terrorist attack. If you complainers think you can do better, you will probably get your chance... flame away... No flames here, but some honest, considered responses to your story.First, congratulations on your success -- it's nice when hard work actually pays off. Second, I'm having real, honest-to-God difficulty imagining how your situation is *anything* even *remotely* like Dubya's. To begin with, you've worked for what you've gotten; he never has a day in his life. In your story, Dubya is a LOT closer to the 26 year old daughter who got *handed* the company & ran it into the ground than he is to you. Can't you see that? Moreover, Dubya's not being judged harshly just because he's in a "management" position; he's being judged harshly because he's in a management position and he's SCREWING IT UP, BIG-TIME!!! He tanked a surplus and put us back into the TRILLIONS in debt; he STARTED an unprovoked war (referring to Iraq, not the amorphous "war on terror"), his administration has directly attacked civil liberties in ways that haven't been seen since the days of King George III, he's told so many different stories about what the goals are and spun so many contradicting "justifications" for his atrocious actions that he *cannot* be believed at all anymore.... The list goes on. So I ask you -- did you do ANY of those things after you got promoted to management? I *seroiusly* doubt it.Just because *you* got jugded unfairly, that doesn't mean Dubya is. Third, I can't believe you actually *believe* all that crapola in your final paragraph. If you do, you cannot wonder why I called you a non-thinker. Let's take a closer look: all this to say: I identify with GW....he gets beat down...And you NEVER seem to bother to ask WHY he "gets beat down..." Hmm... and by a bunch of people that aren't capable of judging him.As has been pointed out to you numerous times, if you believe this, then you are an enemy of *everything* America stands for, and of our entire way of life. I've rarely seen a more treasonous statement on this forum. He is roasted in the media on forums in our countryAnd still, you do not wonder why. Hmmm... and by our enemies....yet, terrorists are dead,All of them? I think not. Some, perhaps -- *IF* we take Dubya's word for it that they were, in fact, terrorists; and I might be willing to do that, if he hadn't already lied about so much else.And let's talk about *how* they were killed. In focused, covert operations that only targeted *known* terrorists? NO, in massive, blunt, wide-ranging, "shock and awe" style catastrophic attacks which have killed not only some alleged terrorists, but tens (working on hundreds) of thousands of civilian men, WOMEN AND CHILDREN, leaving hundreds of thousands homeless and creating A) countless hiding holes & opportunities for terrorists, and B) new targets for their terror (in both Iraqi civilians, international aid workers, and America soldiers). Good goin' there! Oh, and while we're at it, let's not forget all the *new recruits* we've created for these terrorist organizations by devastating homes & families, and giving thousands of people good reason to seek revenge against us! our enemies are fleeingNo, I'm sad to say, they're not. bin Laden keeps directing his cohorts & sending out new taped manifestos, and the others are still hard at work, too. Even more so, now that we've essetially opened Iraq's borders and made a terrorists' playground of it. and we have avoided terrorist activity in the states....Spurious logic at its worst! I have a bottle of Advil on my desk, and I haven't seen a tiger in my office all year -- damn, Advil sure must be good at keeping tigers away! Think, before you say crap like this, and I'll quit calling you a non-thinker. Deal? If you really think that we haven't had another 9/11 because of Bush, I suggest you do some research into everything he *hasn't* done to protect our borders and defend us HERE AT HOME from terrorists.... You'll start to realize how lucky we've been that terrorists haven't TRIED another strike against us of that magnitude! he gets results ...Yeah, BAD results! That's why people are "beating him down" -- his results SUCK for EVERYBODY IN AMERICA (excuse me, everbody but his oil baron cronies who've been reporting record earnings while we pay $3.95 at the pump...) and you are still alive and not the victim of a terrorist attack. NO THANKS TO GEORGE INEPTITUDE DUBYA BUSH! I'm still alive, after everything he's done, by the Grace of God, and nothing else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe Your understanding of Christianity is not accurate....(same as draelyc's lack of understanding here...though, he professes to be a Christian, then demonstrates the opposite...(orthopraxy has betrayed him...)) I defy you to quote me and thus show me where I've demonstrated the "opposite" of any teaching of Christ. I am a complete pacifist.... until.....If you have to add "until," you're not really a pacifist. Sorry. Someone (or group of 'someones') swears to murder me and my family including my friends and patriots, then demonstrates it imperically... then... I DEFEND myself from such AGGRESSORS.Why is it that so many people cannot grasp that "defend" DOES NOT EQUAL "attack"? Are people really that freakin' stupid? If you have to cross an ocean to drop bombs on a country that hasn't not done violence to you, then you are ATTACKING, ***not*** defending. It's simple! You guys are a waste of my time and America's time....And you expect to be considered an adult? Noice. Keep complaining/crying about things...I'm sure that will make them change for the better It's the only thing that ever has -- as you'll find out, when you make it all the way to 9th grade history class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members charliedango Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Here's a question for all of you: Is the president your leader? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe how often do you turn on the TV set and see a bunch of 'whacked-out' conservatives complaining about things and protesting Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilley have made entire CAREERS out of doing JUST THAT! And, as history shows, they're not above LYING about people and situations in order to generate NEW THINGS TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. the war?Why should the conservative whack-jobs complain about war? It gives them a handy generic group of "sub-humans" to demonize and blame their own misfortunes on. And a huge portion of the mentally challenged public loves to hear them do so, because then *they* don't have to take responsibility for their own misfortunes, either. Hey, that's how Hitler was able to convince Germany to dismantle her democracy and build up the Third Reich! that's what I thought...You haven't "thought" since you came into this thread... LIBERALS are a blight on humanity, a social disease and a shameful disgrace to this country....I see you wear the 'liberal badge' proud! Perhaps you're not as dumb as you seem. Based on this, I'm thinking maybe you're really a very clever troll. If you are, you've trolled me good. If you're not, I truly, truly pity you for the hell it is to be you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe News Flash....most of the world hates us! They are envious of our power/control....no matter what we do, most of the world will hate us....even if we go out to other countries and liberate the civilians from tyranical murderous dictators, even then the world will hate us..even if we provide billions of US dollars in aid, food, medicine and supplies to poor countries...even then, the world will hate us..even if we...oh, what's the use....not only does the world hate us, the social cancer of our society (liberal complainers) they, too hate us. Until we bother to attempt to understand WHY so many people hate us, we'll never be anything but a target and a victim. Why don't you want to understand where the hatred comes from? You afraid of truths that might make you uncomfortable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe I have come to the absolute conclustion that you, sir, are a blind man. You don't seem to me to be qualified to form conclusions or make judgments. I mean, you don't have the same "inside" top-secret intel that others do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe I think George Bush trusts the military personell he has in place to run the war(s)...he may intervene on "executive" decisions...you must trust your experts to make the decisions (Hitler used to usurp his military experts to the demise of Nazi Germany...).. Geoge Bush is accountable to the American people, his limited executive powers and his appointed personnel and advisors... George Bush IS NOT accountabe in the public court of fickle left-wing ill-informed opinion...nor is he accountable to those that disagree with his philosophy on how to conduct war (within Constitutional boundaries...).... it is the LIBERALS my dear boy, that are causing all the DIVISION Who is holding them (liberals) accountable to the social division and damage they are doing???? If Dubya had trusted his top military personnel, the ones with the most experience and the best intel, he wouldn't have attacked Iraq unprovoked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe I agree with this statement of his: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe I'm for any President (Republican or Democrat) that allows me to keep more of my own money and make more of my own decisions...and doesn't grow government Then you must HATE Dubya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe I'm really not in favor of Christians in politics...they just get beat down as 'trying to legislate morality'...and such...I never 'force' my life style on anyone...if someone doesn't want to believe in God and trust in Jesus Christ for 'salvation' that's fine! I won't force ya...I won't try and get a political position to FORCE you...on the other hand, I don't like it when liberals try to get political power in order to FORCE their anti-Christian life style down my throat as 'civil rights' legislation...to me this kind of 'liberal' is the 'anti-Christian' religion....if I can't force you to be Christian....then, you shouldn't be able to force me to be anti-Christian...seems fair to me!that's all I'm askin' when it comes to Religion and politics... There's so much wrong here it would take charts & graphs to explain it all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by guitar shmoe they have access to an unprecedented amount of top secret intel/information that we don't. we simply aren't able to judge at this point (New York Times national security sensitive info not withstanding...)...knowing what I know about military intel I laugh at those that 'suppose' they can accurately judge...because they watch CNN or MSN or FoxNews or whatever?....simply laughable....Our Leaders are ....our Leaders! they deserve our support even if we don't agree with their decisions (as long as they're legal..)Bill Clinton was our president and deserved the honor due his office (even though I didn't agree with his politics...)...you dishonor our nation and our President when you cheapen him as you have...as if you could do better....complaining doesn't help anything.Next election maybe your guy (or gal?) will get voted in and your ideology will be advanced?then I will be challenged to 'not' criticize or complain to the point of distracting our leader. All this has already been refuted, but it's annoying to see it posted again, since it's so, well, wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted July 31, 2006 Members Share Posted July 31, 2006 Originally posted by Corso2 First of all, the pastor is right, and God bless him. May more eyes in the church be opened to how they are being used by evil men in the interests of hatred, war, greed, despoiling of God's creation, and willful disregard of poverty and suffering. As a Christian myself who has always had a hard time finding a church that hadn't been co-opted by the devil in that manner, it does my heart good to see a man so inspired of the Holy Spirit. Second of all, he himself says he is no liberal, being opposed to abortion and homosexuality. What he has realized, though, is exactly what I said....the church is being used by evil, for evil. Remember, Satan is the deceiver, and anti-Christ is described as being hypocritical and falsely pious. I don't think of Anti-Christ as a man, but as a movement, and the religious right is Anti-Christ. They are the Pharisees, the Hypocrites, the money-changers in the Temple. Remember, only one thing made Christ angry, and that was hypocrisy and false piety, being "religious" in public and concealing an evil heart. Those who crucified Him were the religious right of their time. But anyway...if one strikes your cheek, show him the other so he may strike it as well. If one steals your coat, give him your cloak as well. When the disciple drew the sword and cut off the soldiers' ear, Jesus healed the soldier and admonished the disciple. Now go ahead, I know what you will say, because it is what all rightist "Christians" say when I confront them in this manner. +1 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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