New Yamaha Motif XF

[GigMan]

Fantom G has front panel transpose & Live mode..for those reasons it seems to be the gigging board to get unless you don't like the Roland sound Personally speaking I've been playing a Fantom X too long & the XF seems like a real winner.

I bought a Fantom G7 - when I thought my Triton Le 61 was going to die (it didn't) - thought the Fantom G7 sounded great (in headphones) and had great features, such as those you mention... but when I got it to a gig it did NOT cut thru the mix well at all. Brought it back - and I continue to use the TLE... I just love the sounds on that cheesy/cheap silver little baby!!

[DmitryKo]

now that I see Split/Layer & Transpose added to the S90/S70XS series - I DO want it all: add them to the Motif XF series and then I'd have a fairly lightweight gig machine w/killer sounds, sequencer, sampling AND easy-to-use Performance features..

Split/Layer on the S90XS is not as easy as on dedicated performance pianos, because you do have to use the menu. Check the Owner's manual for S90XS, pp. 28-31.

 

I have Yamaha P-90 which does have dedicated split/layer buttons (and transpose), and it's indeed very easy to setup a split/layer with them in realtime. BUT it's only because everything is mapped to the physical buttons, including each and every program available. Quite possible on a performance piano with 16 different programs, but you can't have this convenience on perfromance synth or music workstation with thousands of programs. You have to use the menu and you have to store your new combi to the memory.

[Miket156]

by B3keys: If the Motifs weren't designed for live use, then why do you see them on so many stages and used by a variety of artists from Rock/Country/Pop/RnB? Your assessment is inaccurate.

 

 

Because when the Motif ES was introduced, the Yamaha alternatives were the S90 in their performance synth line, and the P120 DP (light weight, limited sounds) and the P250 (heavy weight great acoustic piano sound, so-so other sounds). At the time the sound set on the ES series was the most versatile in Yamaha's Pro KB's and many professional musicians bought the Motif ES because it had an excellent acoustic piano sound and a lot of good B&B sounds in a lighter weight package than the P250. The S90 was overdue for an update, and the P120 was too limited.

 

A while back I saw a youtube video of Dennis Deyoung playing one of Styx classic songs on a TV program live. The only thing he played on it was the acoustic piano sound. He COULD have used anything he asked for, but he used the Motif and only used the piano acoustic piano sound. So, I have to assume that he liked the piano sound on it so that's why he chose it.

 

Yamaha has been trying for seamless integration with a computer on the Motif at least as long as the ES has been on the market, and has kept improving on the integration since they introduced the XS and now the XF. How many players routinely use a computer with a workstation for live use? So, in my opinion, Yamaha targeted their WORKSTATION class boards for recording AND playing.

 

I doubt that Yamaha would spank anybody that buys a Motif and uses it for LIVE performance. They will take their money. As I stated previously, I use my Motif ES for practice, recording sequences, and live performance.

 

You don't have to agree with my opinion, it really doesn't matter.

 

 

Mike T.

[tremens]

there is no distinction between stage and studio use anymore, workstations are designed for general purpose and as a such are being used - no question about it whether you like it or not.

[Miket156]

You can certainly use a workstation for live use. However, performance synths that have a lot of front panel controls are better for quick changes on the fly. More often than not, a musician has to menu dive on the Motif to do even simple things.

Like transpose the keyboard.

The Motif is not as well suited for live use than than performance synths. I own one and I know, whether YOU like it or not.


Mike T.

[tremens]

You can certainly use a workstation for live use. However, performance synths that have a lot of front panel controls are better for quick changes on the fly. More often than not, a musician has to menu dive on the Motif to do even simple things.

 

not really, if you do your homework and prepare all setups or masters if you will - you switch them as easily as with the flick of the switch...

[Miket156]

tremes:

I find it "interesting" when another musician that doesn't own the same synth as I do tries to tell me how it can be set up. I've used my Motif ES8 for six years, and it is not well suited for what Gigman wants to do with a synth.

I played in bands for years before I went solo and I have experienced some similar situations in a band playing in front of a live audience when you have to switch gears instantly and the song starts and you have to be ready. You have to have a good performance synth if you want to be able to work with a band that plays the kind of gigs that Gigman plays.

The act I do is different than Gary's (Gigman). I put all my sets together at home and load them up (one set at a time) when I gig as a solo act. I do my homework or my classic rock act won't work. I have my Master mode setup with a nice selection of voices and performances that if I wanted to sit in with a band, it would fill the bill pretty well. Its when things pop up on the fly that you can't plan for ahead of time is where the Motif ES will not be the best choice. My Motif ES works well for me because I can plan ahead of time and no one else can tell me what to play, I'm in control of my act. Gary doesn't have that kind of situation so a Motif workstation is not the best choice for him.


Mike T.

[kilon]

Well it seems that XF is basically , XS , expanded.

The updates on the XS engine, are minor in quantity but major in quality. First doubling the ROM is a huge deal on the accoustic sounds. I can even hear the diffirence only from the demos and youtube videos. Its very obvious. And the synth sounds seem improved as well.

I own an ES, I have not upgraded to XS because I did not feel that it could motivate me to sell my ES6 for 1000 euros and then add 1400 to get the XS6.

However the prospect of saving all my samples in 2 GB flash and then load things in an instant, is a dream come true. Of course I could wait for the PC3K with the flash ram, its only 128 mb flash ram and not the 2 GB of XF , but VAST is 10 times more powerful than Motif, however I hate the tiny screen of PC3 and gui is plain awful.

Another very interesting is that automap feature for samples, welcomed addition as well.

I was thinking hard lately , of getting a virus TI , even considering buying REASON 5. But XF is the logical choice , compared to my ES will give 4 times the rom, 2 times the available waveforms, 4 times the arpeggiators, much better effects, at last a bigger color screen and much better software editors. Even Cubase AI seems appealing even though it has been 10 years since the last time I used Cubase.

So compared to ES I will be getting a doubling in features in all significant areas and at last I can use the sampler without getting serious annoyed by slow loading times. All I have to do is wait for it to arrive in my country (GREECE) and give it a try.

Seem flash is the future , recently Apple anounced the new macbook air , it also uses flash memory as hard drive and it can load in an instant. Very tempting indeed.

[Thorhead]

If Motif XS didn't have the yamaha logo on it, it do be the best looking board around IMHO.

[Miket156]

by Thorhead: If Motif XS didn't have the yamaha logo on it, it do be the best looking board around IMHO.

I'm not all that concerned with the color of a synth; its the sound, action, features, and price that matter.


Mike T.

[kilon]

I'm not all that concerned with the color of a synth; its the sound, action, features, and price that matter. Mike T.

then go get a pc3x.

[Dr.Innovation]

Well it seems that XF is basically , XS , expanded. The updates on the XS engine, are minor in quantity but major in quality. First doubling the ROM is a huge deal on the accoustic sounds. I can even hear the diffirence only from the demos and youtube videos. Its very obvious. And the synth sounds seem improved as well. I own an ES, I have not upgraded to XS because I did not feel that it could motivate me to sell my ES6 for 1000 euros and then add 1400 to get the XS6. However the prospect of saving all my samples in 2 GB flash and then load things in an instant, is a dream come true. Of course I could wait for the PC3K with the flash ram, its only 128 mb flash ram and not the 2 GB of XF , but VAST is 10 times more powerful than Motif, however I hate the tiny screen of PC3 and gui is plain awful. Another very interesting is that automap feature for samples, welcomed addition as well. I was thinking hard lately , of getting a virus TI , even considering buying REASON 5. But XF is the logical choice , compared to my ES will give 4 times the rom, 2 times the available waveforms, 4 times the arpeggiators, much better effects, at last a bigger color screen and much better software editors. Even Cubase AI seems appealing even though it has been 10 years since the last time I used Cubase. So compared to ES I will be getting a doubling in features in all significant areas and at last I can use the sampler without getting serious annoyed by slow loading times. All I have to do is wait for it to arrive in my country (GREECE) and give it a try. Seem flash is the future , recently Apple anounced the new macbook air , it also uses flash memory as hard drive and it can load in an instant. Very tempting indeed.

 

 

 

It's too bad you aren't here in the states.

I see used XS8's go for $1600 USD-$2,000 USD.

 

The ES (which I had) is almost light years behind the curve

with its soundset. If this is your only source for a piano, An XS, or

XF will satisfy the need. I couldn't deal with the Es plastic sounding

tones that sounded like my old PSR 410 from way back.

[kilon]

It's too bad you aren't here in the states. I see used XS8's go for $1600 USD-$2,000 USD. The ES (which I had) is almost light years behind the curve with its soundset. If this is your only source for a piano, An XS, or XF will satisfy the need. I couldn't deal with the Es plastic sounding tones that sounded like my old PSR 410 from way back.

 

 

If I was a serious piano player looking for workstation then XS would not have been a choice, I would consider only PC3X. It destroys the XS piano. I have listened to the piano of XF mainly trough youtube , it seems able to compete with pc3x piano but I will have to demo the unit to know for sure.

 

But I am not a piano player , I use piano sounds rarely. I am not a player either I am a composer and I compose ambient music. So my main concern are the electronic sounds and some of the orchestral sounds. I am also interested with creating sounds. Because I compose on my motif es , I am also interested on the sequencer / sampler / effects / perfomance sections as well.

 

By the way I do not need to be in the states , I saw yesterday 2 ads from my country one ES8 at 1200 euros and one ES8 at 2000 euros . So the low prices are here two. Too tell you the truth XS sound did not impressed me that much to motivate a purchase. Yes I think that they are better but I decided to wait for the next module, I wanted my new motif to way better in features and sound than my ES and it seems that XF really is. But as I have said I will have to demo the unit up close when it will arrive at Greece. At the moment , there are no news about when it will be imported.

[piano39]

If I was a serious piano player looking for workstation then XS would not have been a choice, I would consider only PC3X. It destroys the XS piano. I have listened to the piano of XF mainly trough youtube , it seems able to compete with pc3x piano but I will have to demo the unit to know for sure.

 

 

Huh? you have got to be kidding.

 

I have been playing piano for decades. I own a Motif ES and the acoustic piano sounds are fantastic. I have got to believe that the XW and XF is even better.

It is possible that the PC3X, or others, are better, but only by a subtle degree. I am sure that if you arranged all of the high end boards in a room, and had the KSS players audition them all, there would be a variety of favorites. But the technology has advanced to the point that we are talking about personal taste here.

[kilon]

Huh? you have got to be kidding. I have been playing piano for decades. I own a Motif ES and the acoustic piano sounds are fantastic. I have got to believe that the XW and XF is even better. It is possible that the PC3X, or others, are better, but only by a subtle degree. I am sure that if you arranged all of the high end boards in a room, and had the KSS players audition them all, there would be a variety of favorites. But the technology has advanced to the point that we are talking about personal taste here.

 

 

 

I think you need to check pc3x piano and decide for yourself.

[GigMan]

Huh? you have got to be kidding. I have been playing piano for decades. I own a Motif ES and the acoustic piano sounds are fantastic. I have got to believe that the XW and XF is even better. It is possible that the PC3X, or others, are better, but only by a subtle degree. I am sure that if you arranged all of the high end boards in a room, and had the KSS players audition them all, there would be a variety of favorites. But the technology has advanced to the point that we are talking about personal taste here.

I'm sure Motif ES pianos are GOOD - but the S90ES pianos are GRRRRREAT!

I also have a hard time believing that the Kurz. PC3X pianos slaughter the Motif XF's pianos. Taste in acoustic piano sounds is probably the MOST debated topic on this thread EVER, btw.

[Thorhead]

Huh? you have got to be kidding. I have been playing piano for decades. I own a Motif ES and the acoustic piano sounds are fantastic. I have got to believe that the XW and XF is even better. It is possible that the PC3X, or others, are better, but only by a subtle degree. I am sure that if you arranged all of the high end boards in a room, and had the KSS players audition them all, there would be a variety of favorites. But the technology has advanced to the point that we are talking about personal taste here.

 

 

Piano sounds are subjective.

 

Some hate the kurzweil piano, some like it.

 

I personally think it is not bad but not the resurrection of christ either....

 

From the demos I have heard, I prefer the S90XS piano sound to the kurzweil. The kurzweil piano sound is much tinnier. Obviously one or other might fit a certain mix better. And obviously you can EQ the sound much more with the kurz....

 

Kurzweil:

 

[YOUTUBE]TlQ1G1MoMio[/YOUTUBE]

 

Yamaha:

 

[YOUTUBE]iYE8IeO-HmE[/YOUTUBE]

 

 

Anyway the problem with Kurzweil piano lies in the middle octaves. The higher keys sound good and the lower sound ok too.

[kilon]

I'm sure Motif ES pianos are GOOD - but the S90ES pianos are GRRRRREAT! I also have a hard time believing that the Kurz. PC3X pianos slaughter the Motif XF's pianos. Taste in acoustic piano sounds is probably the MOST debated topic on this thread EVER, btw.

I did not say that. I said that PC3X pianos slaughter ES and XS pianos. I never judge a synth until I actually test it up close and personal. So is impossible for me to formulate a final opinion for XF . From the demos I have seen and listen XF pianos seem very close to PC3X pianos , but in other sounds its pretty obvious that it is XF that destroys kurzweil.



But as said I reserve judgment until I play XF.

[Thorhead]

I did not say that. I said that PC3X pianos slaughter ES and XS pianos. I never judge a synth until I actually test it up close and personal. So is impossible for me to formulate a final opinion for XF . From the demos I have seen and listen XF pianos seem very close to PC3X pianos , but in other sounds its pretty obvious that it is XF that destroys kurzweil. But as said I reserve judgment until I play XF.

 

 

XF has much better acoustic stuff like guitars.

 

I think that Kurzweil pretty much wipes the floor with the synthy stuff though, maybe not out of the box, but the FX and engine is much better than in yammy IMO.

 

Contrary to what many say, I don't find the presets on the kurz to be that great, and especially not that waried, save maybe some of the keyboard stuff. Though that might get fixed in the future.

[kilon]

XF has much better acoustic stuff like guitars. I think that Kurzweil pretty much wipes the floor with the synthy stuff though, maybe not out of the box, but the FX and engine is much better than in yammy IMO. Contrary to what many say, I don't find the presets on the kurz to be that great, and especially not that waried, save maybe some of the keyboard stuff. Though that might get fixed in the future.

 

 

synth sounds on the pc3x were a big let down. I was expecting so much from the VAST engine and even the integrated VA engine inside PC3 , but no the sounds did not even compare with my ES. They are not bad, just extremely mediocre and sometimes boring. I dont think they use more than 1% of the engine, obviously Kur concetraded alot more on pianos and accoustic sounds.

 

the fxs are top notch. Actually did you know that the effects have a sort of AI, that they can turn themselves on and off to help you preserve polyphony and allow you to use effects in all tracks? Basically you could say that the AI is moving effects from one track into the other according to usage. Those guys at Kurzweil must be doing alot of drugs... lol

 

But XS effects also are a big improvement over ES effects , yamaha did some fine emulations . And I am sure there will be an improvement with XF as well.

 

But just take a look on the PC3's engine, it makes XF seem like a joke and its a ridiculous cheap synth. I will probably get XF because of the big color screen, better sounds and flash memory. But boy oh boy I wish I could marry pc3x engine with motif xf.

 

My main issue with pc3 is the gui, its ugly as hell. I searched for like an hour with a friend to find the general envelope for a preset , it appears there is no general envelope. Only individual envelopes for each layer. WTF??!! lol

 

My motif is just dead easy to use in comparison. And the screens are not crammed with hundrends of parameters making it hard to read. Believe it or not I actually edit alot of sound on my motif and use it as a real synthesizer.

 

I still however find it a big joke that Motif XF has only 4 arpeggiators and allow only 4 voices in performance mode. Why Yamaha , why ?

[Thorhead]

synth sounds on the pc3x were a big let down. I was expecting so much from the VAST engine and even the integrated VA engine inside PC3 , but no the sounds did not even compare with my ES. They are not bad, just extremely mediocre and sometimes boring. I dont think they use more than 1% of the engine, obviously Kur concetraded alot more on pianos and accoustic sounds. the fxs are top notch. Actually did you know that the effects have a sort of AI, that they can turn themselves on and off to help you preserve polyphony ? Those guys at Kurzweil must be doing alot of drugs... lol But XS effects also are a big improvement over ES effects , yamaha did some fine emulations . And I am sure there will be an improvement with XF as well. But just take a look on the PC3's engine, it makes XF seem like a joke and its a ridiculous cheap synth. I will probably get XF because of the big color screen, better sounds and flash memory. But boy oh boy I wish I could marry pc3x engine with motif xf. My main issue with pc3 is the gui, its ugly as hell. I searched for like an hour with a friend to find the general envelope for a preset , it appears there is no general envelope. Only individual envelopes for each layer. WTF??!! lol My motif is just dead easy to use in comparison. And the screens are not crammed with hundrends of parameters making it hard to read. Believe it or not I actually edit alot of sound on my motif and use it as a real synthesizer. I still however find it a big joke that Motif XF has only 4 arpeggiators and allow only 4 voices in performance mode. Why Yamaha , why ?

 

 

Yeah, the presets are really sub par on the PC3x compared to what they could have been. Really needs more of both the Bread and butter pads and synths along with some experimental stuff. The keyboard stuff is good though. It would have been well worth it for kurz IMO to get a programmer for the synth department.

 

The GUI is OK IMO, general envelope? That must be a yamaha thing. But you can just copy layers and have same envelope for each part. I don't think they could have made it much more simple considering the size of the screen.

[piano39]

I think that what I was trying to say....

At the high end workstation level, this is all a matter of personal opinion and taste. I think that they are all capable of making great music.

That being said:

My main issue with pc3 is the gui, its ugly as hell. I searched for like an hour with a friend to find the general envelope for a preset , it appears there is no general envelope. Only individual envelopes for each layer. WTF??!! lol

My motif is just dead easy to use in comparison.

This scares me, my biggest problem with the Motif was figuring out how to use it. The Kurzweil is worse?

I still however find it a big joke that Motif XF has only 4 arpeggiators and allow only 4 voices in performance mode. Why Yamaha , why ?

There is a workaround on the Motif. Use pattern mix mode, copy a performance to the pattern, which will eat up 4 tracks. Then on the other tracks, enter "phrases" (which could be other midi patterns or arps). This is great for performances because you can turn tracks on and off. This works on my ES, so I'm sure that it works on the XF.

[kilon]

I think that what I was trying to say.... At the high end workstation level, this is all a matter of personal opinion and taste. I think that they are all capable of making great music. That being said: This scares me, my biggest problem with the Motif was figuring out how to use it. The Kurzweil is worse? There is a workaround on the Motif. Use pattern mix mode, copy a performance to the pattern, which will eat up 4 tracks. Then on the other tracks, enter "phrases" (which could be other midi patterns or arps). This is great for performances because you can turn tracks on and off. This works on my ES, so I'm sure that it works on the XF.

Whether you like the pianos is subjective whether those pianos are made up from more layers, and more carefully programmed is not subjective. Whether the Pc3x has 16 arpeggiators and another 16 riff generators and the XF only 4 arpeggaitors, is not subjective either. You can not actually increase the arpeggiators via personal opinion as much as you try.

Well I would say that PC3X is no beauty when it comes to GUI. But the editor that come with , software editor , is a beauty. Actually it makes perfect sense to edit this monster from the comforts of you computer. And it is very easy as well. Motif XF editor look like a beauty too and I find very appealing how closely integrates with Cubase. Very neat indeed.

Yes I know about the motif's workarounds, you are right of course, using pattern/song mode it give you 16 tracks and you set up sections to partly emulate arpeggiators , but only partly, you cannot transpose or trigger them by note. So its an ugly workaround in the end. But at least you can have 16 voices playing at once , even though only 8 of them can use effects.

Still its very cheap of Yamaha to still not upgrade the ES specs after 7 years , apart from some upgrades here and there. We are paying 2400 euros for the damn synth afterall, I think we deserve to see significant improvement, and all we getting is an ES with some improvement in it.

But its not that I got much choice, other workstation follow the same guidelines more or less. So I think I will buy XF.

[Thorhead]

You can do that with the kurz. You just have to program it first. So yeah it can be a bit slow.

In setup mode I think that just sending the global midi signal does the same thing though. So it could be done quickly too.

[epyon77x]

synth sounds on the pc3x were a big let down. I was expecting so much from the VAST engine and even the integrated VA engine inside PC3 , but no the sounds did not even compare with my ES. They are not bad, just extremely mediocre and sometimes boring. I dont think they use more than 1% of the engine, obviously Kur concetraded alot more on pianos and accoustic sounds.

The presets do sound a bit boring, true, but they have one redeeming quality...they sound fantastic in a band setting almost right away. Thats because the keyboard is geared towards gigging musicians ( and its a gods gift in studio ) and not impressing people on the demo floor... Some sparkly stuff would not hurt though.

Now, concerning the acoustic sounds on PC3, I guess it is a matter of taste, but to my ears pianos, acoustic guitars and brass are the weakest links of the board ( pianos are here because they do sound a bit dated ) while it excels at EPs, vintage synth emulations and classic keys ( mellotrons are gorgeous ).

Interface is not all that terrible to me, and Im a Triton moron...softkeys are great for speed, everything is in Hz and dB ( refreshing after years of Korgese ), setting controllers and zone ranges is fantastic ( enter + controller of your choice )...I found the editor to be a bit quirky for my tastes, you had more luck?

Anyways, too bad Im too cash strapped atm, cause ( I cant believe Im going to say this ) XF sounds pretty sweet, first Motif to actually interest me...


P.S.

You can assign attack to slider for all layers and tweak it accordingly, default setting for most presets