New Yamaha Motif XF

[DmitryKo]

 

I was able to isolate the timbre of each note, listen to how the tone of each note built as the sustain was pressed... I was able to hear the quality of the instrument and whoever programmed it captured faithfully the characteristics of AK's actual Custom built Yamaha C3 Neo.

Well, it does not work for me for that particular sample.

 

 

Here, is moonlight sonata via the Vienna Imperial ... And Pathetique

Thank you, I will get a listen through the monitors tomorrow, it's too late now.

 

Just for the record, I'm not really accustomed to classical piano records, and I didn't actually get to play expensive grand pianos, so I admit that it's quite possible that this library actually sounds like a real grand piano recorded in a big auditorium. BUT I just don't value samples that get as close as possible to a record, I'm looking for a sample that is, well, a better piano than the real thing. Sterile, clean sound, free of all the imperfections of microphone placement, ambient sounds, or room reverberation.

 

You might call it plastic (though I do admit that the same CFIII sample in the Motif ES does not connect as much as P-90) but I'm just accustomed to hearing the sound of an upright as it should probably come a player position in an ideal room, not as if I'm listening to a classical record of myself on a 12" grand piano. That might be the issue.

 

If your perception is different and you do like this sound, more power to you. Unfortunately trying to put your expression in words won't help me feel the same way as you.

 

 

all controllers are not equal. Velocities are inconsistent on most. Velocity curves across the board are incongruent

Which brings us to all-in-one approach of a dedicated digital piano which comes complete with audio samples, digital to analog converters, keyboard hammer action, and (for the most part) speakers. No solving charades of why it does not sound as it should and what component is to blame.

 

 

What you need to understand (or try anyway) is that an audio demo does NOT exemplify the true nature of the sample most notably because these pianists play differently...

Since I can't really go to a store and try this software instrument as a full-featured solution (unlike dedicated piano), I can do nothing but continue to judge it by best means available to me, that is audio demos. And if I don't like the demos in the first place, in most cases I can't be bothered to try it.

 

 

You won't get an accurate image with headphones and 2nd RP6's are extremely colored and don't reproduce music with accuracy I would think a discernible listener/ear would need as a requisite to comment on high resolution sample playback.

I'm not an audiophile and I'm actually fine with it. I also doubt that requiring $3000 Adam monitors or a very specific keyboard controller is a positive characteristic of a sample library, not to mention how few people actually listen to any records using $3000 studio monitors or $5000 audiophile speakers and amplifiers...

 

 

Yamaha controllers were found to be a common derivative of the issues aforementioned and although it is no where near a conclusive stereotype of these anomalies that plagued Yamaha controllers they did outnumber every other controller listed.

Well, I used to have a Fatar Studiologic 880, the same action as in your Triton Extreme 88, and tried everything to make it work properly with sofware instruments.

[wildpaws]

You can certainly use a workstation for live use. However, performance synths that have a lot of front panel controls are better for quick changes on the fly. More often than not, a musician has to menu dive on the Motif to do even simple things. Like transpose the keyboard. The Motif is not as well suited for live use than than performance synths. I own one and I know, whether YOU like it or not. Mike T.

:)The human brain is far faster at transposing than a dedicated transpose button. A really good keyboard player should be able to transpose a song himself/herself without the use of a transpose button. Now that does not mean I can do it (after all, I said REALLY good), but my wife has no problem doing so, I guess all thosse years of classical piano training, scales, etc. paid off for her in the long run.
Clyde.

[Miket156]

Wildpaws:

I'd say you're right about your wife's years of practice and classical training helped her develop those skills that she can instantly transpose on the fly. If you do something enough times, the brain takes over and does the "math" on the fly. What you practice is determined by what your musical goals are and what skills you need to achieve those goals. Its never been my goal to transpose any song on the fly. I really don't care about that, its not something I need for the type of act I play and where I play. As a rule, I don't let people "sit in", I am being paid to keep the music coming, and keep the crowd entertained. More often than not, when someone wants to sit in they've already had too much to drink. 99.5% of the time they don't know the song's arrangement and we wouldn't be able to pull it off smoothly, so I don't do it.

I transpose songs as necessary to fit my voice range so I can sing the song as well as play it. If I am going to learn a song by a female singer, I will have to lower the key from the original key. I learn the song in the original key and once I have it down, I determine what key I need to play it in and transpose it then and there. I usually have to go over a song a few times until I feel comfortable once I have the song down in the lower key. Transposing is also a necessity because our ears will make our hands go to the chords that we are hearing, not the key we learned it in. I can usually only transpose the key by a semitone using a transpose button ( I don't have perfect pitch) or I will start playing it in the key I am hearing. So there is a limit to how much value a transpose button has to me as an entertainer. But I do know that it can come in handy a lot more often for what Gigman has to do with his band.



Cheers,


Mike T.

[psionic11]

Definitely... once you've played a truly superior piano patch, coupled to an exceptional controller the connection between keyboard and player become one A controller is a need for every keyboard player anyway, right? I do understand some or even most opt for a 61 or 76 key because they don't want the weighted action of an 88 key controller/synth. However if you're on a budget, truly want the closest experience to playing a piano it can't be done on light, plastic feeling keys. I feel a serious player or even a compelled enthusiast should have 2 boards... -An 88 weighted controller -their 61 or 7 key synth. Of course there are those that have more but since I've discovered things like Omnisphere, I'm ready to live without my old synths of yesterday:thu:

I'd like to emphasize this point. The controller -- and its velocity response -- are *key* to connecting and making a multisample set more musical.

Case in point: I have both flavors of Fusion, the 61 key synth action and the 88 key piano action. Now while the onboard Holy Grail is definitely nothing to write home about, there is a LOT of variation depending on which kind of keyboard you use. Playing the same patch on either keyboard:

-- On the 61 key at standard linear velocity, you get an overly sensitive feel that might make sense for a banging live rock piano, but absolutely useless for sensitive classical work or anything else requiring nuance.

-- On the 88 key at standard linear velocity, you begin to approach a more versatile expressive instrument, and then come up against a wall of expressivity, reminding you how limiting the onboard multisample is.

-- On the 88 key with custom adjusted logarithmic velocity, and a more tweaked multisample, you get something better, but still not quite there.

Point? Same sound, different keyboard settings, result in very practical musical differences in playability. This might be obvious to some, but I betcha most overlook tweaking your controller and jump to hasty conclusions about a preset without realizing the potential a little attention to detail can yield.

$0.02

[Dr.Innovation]

Well, I used to have a Fatar Studiologic 880, the same action as in your Triton Extreme 88, and tried everything to make it work properly with sofware instruments.

 

I think you are missing the point here bud.

 

See my triton extreme has custom setting Velocity curves.

It does not have presets, albeit they are in a sense predetermined

because these settings are numbered 1-7...

 

I doubt your editing velocity parameter are akin to my own...

Have you ever played a Kurzweil K2600XS?

This has a plethora of preset velocity curves!

 

The fact we share the same action is: irrelevant:thu:

You need to work in tandem with your controller -AND-

your software instrument's curve.

 

AK's has convex and concave in % increments.

There is a balance, you have to find it.

Then after you do you will need to adjust the nominal volume output

to compensate at times.

[Dr.Innovation]

I'd like to emphasize this point. The controller -- and its velocity response -- are *key* to connecting and making a multisample set more musical. Case in point: I have both flavors of Fusion, the 61 key synth action and the 88 key piano action. Now while the onboard Holy Grail is definitely nothing to write home about, there is a LOT of variation depending on which kind of keyboard you use. Playing the same patch on either keyboard: -- On the 61 key at standard linear velocity, you get an overly sensitive feel that might make sense for a banging live rock piano, but absolutely useless for sensitive classical work or anything else requiring nuance. -- On the 88 key at standard linear velocity, you begin to approach a more versatile expressive instrument, and then come up against a wall of expressivity, reminding you how limiting the onboard multisample is. -- On the 88 key with custom adjusted logarithmic velocity, and a more tweaked multisample, you get something better, but still not quite there. Point? Same sound, different keyboard settings, result in very practical musical differences in playability. This might be obvious to some, but I betcha most overlook tweaking your controller and jump to hasty conclusions about a preset without realizing the potential a little attention to detail can yield. $0.02

Exactly!

[kilon]

Interesting. No, of course I can't, this is indistinguishable (putting aside the quality of the sample). My point is, I did not doubt that extracting 200-500-1000 harmonics with Fourier transform will work, if the synth engine supports that much oscillators. Actually I believe this is quite close to Yamaha's "Spectral Component Modelling" which is used on the latest CP-1/5/50 series, even though it probably doesn't use hundreds of pure sine waves, most likely a dozen "harmonic layers" which dissect the sound into complex spectral components. The same approach is probably used for their "FM emulation" in CP-1; I also heard an opinion that they use a reincarnation of FDSP technology found in the EX-5. The practical question was if typical 2-4-6-8 oscillators or non-typical 32 oscillators are enough for a faithful representation or acoustic piano using pure sine waves. I was told that V.A.S.T. synthesis does not need quality samples, or does not need samples at all, as it can enhance samples of real-world instruments using its enormous processing power alone. However I still doubt that even 32 harmonics (pure sine waves) are enough for a convincing representation using only the virtual modelling approach, especially if you consider practical polyphony limits of PC3X. And since what I hear in PC3X piano demos is not as top-notch, IHMO there is no practical substitution for quality samples, whether they are samples of whole notes or some spectral components artificially constructed in software.

 

 

As I said before, these are sine waves , NOT oscilators. I repeat addditive partials ARE NOT oscilators. The only thing you can edit on them is amplitude and phase, nothing else. An oscilator is far more flexible and it can reach the audio quality of additive. One could argue that it can reach above that as well, as it can cover the whole harmonical range . Additive sines are of fixed frequency, thus they cannot cover the full spectrum of sound .

 

You dont need 32 oscilators to do what 32 partials are doing in additive , actually one can be more than enough. Especially with fm.

 

Of course using a resynthesis algorith is far easier, but if you have some sort of samples playing back , the diffirence with a VA is not that much and it can be as easy. And obviously people behind PC3X are proffessional sound designers they can easily compensate for a samples shortcomings. While with the motif the ONLY thing generating a sound is the samples themselves. There is not fm , there is not additive , I think there is only a ringmodulator in the effect section.

 

Of course that is why MOTIF has always had huge ram. In short both workstation can change their sound radically if they are used properly.

 

By the way I posted this sample because you doubt that asynthsizer can achieve the believability of a piano. I am not saying that its a good idea to try do a piano with a VA, but if you already have piano samples that are not perfect and dont want to mess with additive resynthesis, compensating with VA techinques is still a very viable option that is what I am saying and that is why PC3X can achieve any sound it wants to.

 

Of course not only PC3X, one could use any synth he wants with a motif or anything else to layer each other. And nowdays with software like alchemy and thousands other plugin instruments and effects there must be a gazillion ways for one to achieve PRECISELY the sound he wants. Its not easy , but like any other art it takes some skill to achieve excellent results.

[DmitryKo]

I have owned the original RP8's, VXT6/8's and found that KRK colored the sound too much

Well, frankly speaking instrumental tests do show that VXT and RP6 series suffer form mild harmonic distortion, which is not present in similarily priced HS80M, not to mention Adam A7 or ADAM S2.5A. However they were not available back when I was shopping for a monitor, and Adams are a bit expensive for a project studio at $3000 to $5000 per pair.

 

please understand monitors that lie to you aren't a good sound source medium. Monitors Vs. Playback speakers.

But they don't lie NEARLY as much as cheapo speakers/headphones used by 99,999% of listeners.

 

I hope you enjoy the depth, the clarity and overall detail these recordings showcase

I appreciate the clarity and detail, but it does not matter if I don't like the sound that's being recorded...

 

I've also owned those PSR 410 keyboards that were PCM voices of those Motif ES piano sounds and trust me the plastic thud is quite evident, especially since I was groomed in their lower resolution siblings...I'm not familiar with the P90 however upon listening just now to some youtube videos this sample is worlds better than the Motif ES/sounds that preceded it.

No, PSR410 are clearly not in the same ballpark; I believe PSR series actually still use the good old 16 MByte XG soundset from like year 1996.

 

Motif ES/XS, P-90, and the latest CP1/5 and Tyros4 all use the same or very similar Yamaha CFIIIS sample which utilises 20-40 Mbytes. I've had P-90 sitting side by side to Motif ES, so I can confirm it is the same. CF Grand on the CP-1 and S.Articulation! Concert Grand on Tyros4 sound pretty much the same as well, you can clearly hear it in the demos.

 

http://music-tyros.com/tyros4/features/voices/piano.html

http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos/p_90/

http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/stage_pianos/cp1/

http://www.yamahasynth.com/products/synthesizers/s9070_xs/

 

However Motif ES is not using many subtle details such as damper, soundboard resonance, and key release, which are present later instruments, and you could probably describe this deficiency as "plastic". Motif XS, S90XS and Motif XF improve on this with use of additional sample layers and effects processing, and I believe they can sound as good as P-series.

 

I do agree that the feel is not the same - I did connect the P-90 to the Motif ES just to compare the pianos, and P-90 feels much much better on its own, even though I could not really distinguish the sound. But if you find good quality in the way P-90 sounds, it should be present in XS/XF series as well.

 

one's perception can be perhaps broadened a bit upon hearing of other experiences/POV

Nah, I'm too old for that

 

The quality of the sample data in its rawest state reigns supreme over compressed and lightweight "attempts." -notably found in hardware synths.

Again, these are quality sample data of a wrong kind of instrument

 

I like the overall character of TruPianos VSTi, but the quality of its physical modelling is pending further investigation.

http://www.truepianos.com/demos.php

 

not a single controller will EVER come close to a real pianos keybed the CVP 409 Clavinova series ... Wooden keys with Synthetic Ivory overlays. I've played this side by side a Yammy S6. A laughable comparison and the CVP 409 is light years ahead of both our controller combined

If we are talking infinite perfection, well, fine, but what's your practical solution to this problem? I mean, CVP-409 is US $8000 and S6 the real thing is like US $80 000, so both are certainly out of reach of most professional musicians, either gigging or recording (though I heard lawyers and doctors like having a grand piano as furniture in their 4-story houses ). Wouldn't a mediocre key mechanics which do not live up to real grand piano ruin the experience of a fine representation for you?

 

My own solution is to adopt to digital piano as a distinct type of an instrument that requires its own skills and sound, similar to Rhodes. Think of it as a difference between classical acoustic guitar and electric guitar. Very similar instrument, but different sound, different internals, and different (though overlapping) playing techniques.

 

Given your location this could be an issue...

I don't think it's my particular location. How many stores in the whole world allow you to demo sample libraries, do they have a decent weighted or hammer action controller, and does their setup not suffer from any of the issues you mention?

 

my triton extreme has custom setting Velocity curves. It does not have presets, albeit they are in a sense predetermined because these settings are numbered 1-7...

Studiologic controllers have pretty much the same 4 preset curves which can be either positive or negatie, so in total 8, just like PC3X and Triton, but there are some fine adjustments which are only available on PC3X. But if you can fine tune the curve in your softsynth, that is really not relevant.

 

AK's has convex and concave in % increments. There is a balance, you have to find it. Then after you do you will need to adjust the nominal volume output to compensate at times.

Interesting, but somehow I don't need it on my P-90.

[DmitryKo]

 

As I said before, these are sine waves , NOT oscilators. I repeat addditive partials ARE NOT oscilators .

There is no hardware synth that operates this way, so each of these "partials" will consume a sample voice to make a sound.

 

 

You dont need 32 oscilators to do what 32 partials are doing in additive , actually one can be more than enough. Especially with fm.

Well, can you demonstrate a convincing emulation of grand piano which only uses FM layers on the PC3X?

 

 

obviously people behind PC3X are proffessional sound designers they can easily compensate for a samples shortcomings.

And why they didn't?

 

 

By the way I posted this sample because you doubt that asynthsizer can achieve the believability of a piano.

In order to prove your point that 2, 4, or 32 oscillators can make a believeable piano, you show me an example which would need hundreds in real-world hardware.

[kilon]

In order to prove your point that 2, 4, or 32 oscillators can make a believeable piano, you show me an example which would need hundreds in real-world hardware.

:poke:



I give up...

[Dr.Innovation]

Studiologic controllers have pretty much the same 4 preset curves which can be either positive or negatie, so in total 8, just like PC3X and Triton, but there are some fine adjustments which are only available on PC3X. But if you can fine tune the curve in your softsynth, that is really not relevant. Interesting, but somehow I don't need it on my P-90.

 

 

 

(1) Preset curves only get you so far.

Do you know exactly what each do, what are their parameters?

 

A soft synth is also limited because again:

They are PRESETS.

 

The fact is unless you test your controller...

And unless you have a controller that does NOT omit

velocities (1-127 or anything in between) you could

possibly (as many people do) prematurely judge a sample library

based on what you hear, which if you didn't know is NOT the

only criteria used to accurately judge a sample library/sound of one.

 

The issue is that this isn't an exact Science, and the

Manufacturer isn't going to tell you the facts, you'll only

get blanket statements that don't add up to the truth

when these velocity issues arise (and believe me...they do) quite often.

 

 

If you feel your P-90 is adequate enough then

WGAS what anyone else thinks?

 

You're the one who has to use it/play it:thu:

 

 

My only issue with your comments is that you limit yourself

to prematurely judge sample libraries that infinitely destroy

anything hardware has produced to date, due to insufficient date.

[DmitryKo]

 

The Adam (A7) do not have enough low end that exceptional monitors as an all in one solution (should) produce. Pre-owned monitors in my demographic is where the action is at.

Not an option for me, even in the rare events where antique monitors are on sale they are still too expensive for whatever improvement I could get.

 

 

A lie is a lie (to me) Of course doing with what you have available is all that matters.

Sometimes good enough is enough. "Don't gild the lily" as they say.

 

 

Empty words unless you listened to the samples I provided and are speaking

Yes I did. I can appreciate the effect created by a 24-bit 192 Khz 7.1 surrond recording of a gun shot, but do I really like or need this sound?

 

 

Plastic is plastic regardless from whence it derived. We aren't talking "the latest."

I thought we are talking about Motif XF, judging by the name of this thread... for me, "plastic" is good as opposed to "raw". I guess you have already tried to mix this classical piano into a song, so you know better than me if all the intricate details you are talking about will matter in a mix, even when using very expensive studio monitors...

 

 

I don't know what to tell you if you "feel" True Pianos is anything of actual value/quality to a pianist:confused:

Then maybe we should end this discussion for good, since it's not going anywhere.

 

 

It does not dissolve the inherent inadequacy an inferior thing is comprised of.

As I said, another option is to threat it as a different instrument on its own kind.

 

 

-Jim's music, Guitar Center and guess who? Best buy, the retail store. - So yes it does come down to particular location, it's all about location.

Interesting... are they using limited demo versions of the software?

 

 

And unless you have a controller that does NOT omit velocities (1-127 or anything in between) you could possibly (as many people do) prematurely judge a sample library based on what you hear, which if you didn't know is NOT the only criteria used to accurately judge a sample library/sound of one.[ My only issue with your comments is that you limit yourself to prematurely judge sample libraries that infinitely destroy anything hardware has produced to date, due to insufficient date.

Point taken.

[Dr.Innovation]

No we weren't and in fact you weren't which is why I brought up the plastic timbre those synths bring to the table. I can hear the plastic using the cheapest of monitors, it's there. Like I stated previously, most people don't hear it. Interesting... are they using limited demo versions of the software?

 

 

No.

Full versions of course certain Best Buys have a music store

within. Running Macs, even charging for tutorials/workshops.

 

 

Good luck to you:wave:

[DmitryKo]

 

Like I said, it's all about location if you're able to concede?

No, of course I'm not. Now you can feel even more superior, can you? :poke:

 

 

This comment completely null and voids your issues with piano emulations found in hardware.

My comment was not about piano emulations, it was about speaker quality. I am disspointed that you have reverted to trolling so prematurely.

 

 

As an audiophile I'd rather hear a sound which can be as faithfully reproduced as accurate as possible (priority #1) than to play a lower quality reproduction.

As I said, I'm not an audiophile and thankfully will never be.

 

 

BTW, a 16bit wav file cannot playback 24bits at 192khz so I fail to see your point.

Neither can I.

 

 

I was speaking on the beautiful audio demo that seemed unable to impress you while a meager 64 notes of polyphony and a paltry 22MB, AWM tone generated stereo sample sound seemed to be "good enough.

Yes. Except that it's not "good enough", it's simply good.

 

 

No we weren't

Well, then the point of this discussion is completely lost.

[Dr.Innovation]

My comment was not about piano emulations, it was about speaker quality. I am disspointed that you have reverted to trolling so prematurely.

 

 

 

2 things...

 

I don't take things personal and I don't have an ego sir.

I know going in there is always something that is better than what

I have/can afford and I am ok with that, it seems you're not

and that's sad. If anyone has an ego here it's you -which is unfortunate.

 

I never associate myself with my gear.

Me buying it doesn't create my identity.

Someone who has a Fazioli Italian Grand...I'm happy for them

Not jealous and I don't need to justify my things.

 

I also have the basic fortitude to have a discussion without

resorting to *trolling* as you had once again prematurely jumped

to an erroneous conclusion.

 

 

 

 

The thread should be about the Motif XF and similar

discussion.

 

 

Does anyone know if Yamaha offers something for the XF

which is better than the S700 of the XS?

[Outkaster]

I just played this over at {censored}ar Center. What a nice board.

[Bernard]

Great story - Chick Corea on his Sampled Rhodes for Motif XF

 

http://www.keyboardmag.com/video.aspx?bctid=1299753960001&section=Gear&bclid=27965002001

[Mediterranean]

 

Great story - Chick Corea on his Sampled Rhodes for Motif XF http://www.keyboardmag.com/video.aspx?bctid=1299753960001&section=Gear&bclid=27965002001

 

 

Fantastic interview. That deserves a thread on its own.

 

Never saw Chick that close.

 

Love his down-to-earthness and modesty. Wish I had his hands!

 

The explanation on velocity is awesome. A machine that does it perfectly for each note and at 15 different volumes! I always thought that was done by hand and wondered how it can possibly be the same velocity for each different note.

[Bernard]

Fantastic interview. That deserves a thread on its own. Never saw Chick that close. Love his down-to-earthness and modesty. Wish I had his hands! The explanation on velocity is awesome. A machine that does it perfectly for each note and at 15 different volumes! I always thought that was done by hand and wondered how it can possibly be the same velocity for each different note.

Plus you need what ever is being played to have perfectly even response per key for velocity and tone on the day of the recording. Not to mention the headache of setting to each key which may also be mechanically offset etc...

He seemed emotional at the end like it was his dream come true...

[Redhotpoker]

Hi Med',
Hey _uckers!! Gee what do you know?
Not much eh,,, same old _same old then.
Gosh many of us Motif XF owners are smiling pretty this weekend.
Things are looking pretty rosy for YAMAHA Motif XF these days.

Our friends in Japan have been going through some tuff times this past year, but that didn't stop them from thinking positive, about us.
Yeah, for a NAMM 2012 gift, we got a new OS, v1.30 for thee Motif XF.

Pretty sweet, some unexpected goodies within this updated os.
Thus we are proud and happy to be here.
Even though a new (Motif?) synth/workstation was not presented, neither did the other three big guns.
So next winter NAMM Jan 1213, should the planet still have human habitation...
After all doesn't it all end next Dec 2012.?

edit; not a fan of News on my synth screen/monitor, thankfully that can be turned OFF, not to show up!!

Chas

[piano39]

Just got a Motif XF6 from Sweetwater. Came with a 1GB flash board and a bunch of 10th anniversary freebies, including the Chick Corea Rhodes. I have got to tell you that this Rhodes is great. It is the most nuanced Rhodes sample that I ever played. Lots of timbral changes as you play harder, but the transitions are very smooth. I will have a lot of fun with this.

[zzzxtreme]

congrats, Motif to me sounds warm