Michigan becomes another Right to Work state :-)

[Stevetemp]

 

Originally Posted by Eschatologist

I am VP of my local (Elementary Teachers of Ontario), and coincidentally I am going on strike tomorrow over our problems here. Our government introduced legislation in September that restricts our collective bargaining.

I don't apologize for the excesses of other labour organizations, right now there's enough blame and finger-pointing to go around, that's always the case in hard times. I don't know what the average UAW labourer makes, I tend to be cautious about numbers thrown around by the media since they tend to be inflated. I'm sure they make a comfortable living because that's the point! Why else would you organize if not to make middle class folks a little bit more comfortable and less cash in the CEOs and board members. Do unionists look for the best deals for their members? Absolutely, that's their job and that's why I pay {censored}loads of dues! But every benefit they have was given by the corporate negotiators (the government sure as {censored} didn't step in and force them to pay medical or long term disability benefits!), so why not blame them for mismanagement? If members get free shoes for useless reasons, blame the corporate negotiating team for giving in to that. The idea that a union can just go on strike at any time over excessive greed is nonsense; why would we risk going out when we could lose any gains through job action? Furthermore, all decisions and executives in a union are elected, and most unions are far more transparent with funds and their decision making processes than any corporation or government for that matter. The last point I'd make is that unions do raise the standard for all over private companies, it's true across all professional fields. Private companies will raise their compensation packages to remain competitive, otherwise they'll risk bleeding their workers to other companies. Lastly, unions are at the forefront of promoting social justice and progression for all people. We do tons of outreach work in the community, charity and non-partisan lobbying for things like poverty and equal rights. This last point is a largely-hush reason why rich social conservatives really want to see unions crushed.

I don't proclaim unions to be free of scandal and excess, but I honestly believe restricting labour organization ultimately worsens, not bolsters, the economy. I know it is hard for non-unionized workers to see that, there is a huge feeling of resentment out there ("I don't have it, why should he?"), but the goal is always to organize and equalize the playing field for everyone. I know that's easier said than done, but...democracy is messy. Thanks for giving a serious response though, it's nice to have an intelligent and respectful response instead of "{censored} those greedy bastards" lol

 

Okay...that's fine. Like I said...the UAW is a different animal. And you SHOULD apologize for it, because it does tarnish the union image. Hah...no, I'm not saying it's your fault.

My wife is a teacher here in Florida...a 'right to work state"...which really means a "right to fire and treat like crap" state. I told her teachers, firemen, police....they NEED an honest sincere union. The main reason being they are the first on the chopping block when funds get tight. Mostly because of the media and being a public servant. She hasn't had a raise in over three years, got 3% retirement fund tacked on (despite "hiring agreements"), and paying increasing insurance costs. Our costs at home keep going up...so where does that leave us? Right smack in the middle of the shrinking middle class.

And everyone wonders why teachers suck? The good ones go private sector, or just go crazy.

[SteveiJobzz]

 

Originally Posted by Stevetemp

Okay...that's fine. Like I said...the UAW is a different animal. And you SHOULD apologize for it, because it does tarnish the union image. Hah...no, I'm not saying it's your fault.

My wife is a teacher here in Florida...a 'right to work state"...which really means a "right to fire and treat like crap" state. I told her teachers, firemen, police....they NEED an honest sincere union. The main reason being they are the first on the chopping block when funds get tight. Mostly because of the media and being a public servant. She hasn't had a raise in over three years, got 3% retirement fund tacked on (despite "hiring agreements"), and paying increasing insurance costs. Our costs at home keep going up...so where does that leave us? Right smack in the middle of the shrinking middle class.

And everyone wonders why teachers suck? The good ones go private sector, or just go crazy.

 

It's funny that unions seem to emulate the corporations they battle against. There are tons if good, honest unions who are genuinely working towards a better, safer work environment and at the same time a couple huge, irresponsible unions that give other ones a bad name. UAW and big metro teachers unions are not a good representation of most unions in the US and because those are the ones you see on TV I think people get polarized about them.

[TheRymanChu]

In 1982, when Roger Smith took over General Motors, they had the lowest costs to produce a vehicle in Michigan. It was Smith who decided to build multiple cars on the same platform, a concept called GM10. This was the biggest catastrophe in the history of American industry. Smith intended to introduce robotics, cut out workers and streamline the process of building a vehicle, so-called "lights out" factories where the only workers necessary would be those overseeing the robots. To this end, Smith spent $90 billion constructing 7 robotic plants and even going into the business of making robots. Many of these robotic automation systems were removed from their factories not long after installation. This added approximately $2000 to the price of every GM vehicle. At this point in time, GM could have purchased Toyota and Nissan for $35 billion. By 1989 when this entire program had been put into place, and it was clear that it was failing, GM had become the highest cost producer per vehicle in Michigan.

While cutting the production force, Smith simultaneously introduced multiple new levels of management and marketing staff that had previously been unnecessary, and amounted to duplication at all levels. Yes, yes, but the Republican machine tells me that the UAW is entirely to blame for the failing of American auto production in Michigan. Maybe the unions got too strong, but poor management has resulted in an environment where executives can now gut worker's rights and wages in the name of competition. Meanwhile the average CEO earns 344 times the wage of their average worker. Do you think this will go up when pensions are eliminated and hourly wages decreased?

[***1776***]

 

Originally Posted by Krank'N

Many folks died for labor rights. Some on here are just repeating the FOX media BS without actually looking into historical facts. In michigan ,Henry Ford hired a private police force that killed striking workers. This is the same Ford who thought Hitler was a great guy!. You are not forced to join the unions(thats a federal law) however you are still given union rights and protections under all circumstances. This right to work (for less) law just allows the leeches to not pay for those services. This is the UNITED states of america and Gov Sheisster and his tea-baggers will answer to the voters for this bill.

 

Not pay for services lol

Funny how when teaparty and conservatives and fiscally responsible types say this about the country or goverment, etc they are branded extreme, hate mongers, insulted and called names etc, etc by some loons

Funny how that works

[Rear Naked]

 

Originally Posted by diocide

You guys notice that they lt a special provision in exempting the police and fire unions?

I guess there are some socialist entities that even the Koch brothers and the like don't want to change. I wonder if it's because the police and fire departments aren't private businesses, and they therefore they can't make any money off of them, so they left them alone.

Why not include fire and police officers? {censored}, if the big bad unions are ruining our country, shouldn't s socialist groups like police and fire be the first ones to be de-unionized?

 

No you goober. If you put police/fire/teachers in the bill, the bill doesn't pass.

[TheRymanChu]

I have it on good authority that many police and fire fighters hate socialism. As for me, I hate air. It's clear, so I don't trust it.

[***1776***]

 

Originally Posted by TheRymanChu

I have it on good authority that many police and fire fighters hate socialism. As for me, I hate air. It's clear, so I don't trust it.

 

 

[diocide]

 

Originally Posted by TheRymanChu

I have it on good authority that many police and fire fighters hate socialism. As for me, I hate air. It's clear, so I don't trust it.

 

Socialism is a funny thing. It's a big scary thing that everyone should hate, but EVERYONE at one point or another uses one of, if not all of the socialist institutions we have here in America.

[Rear Naked]

Also, are you people retarded?

Not even libertariants want unions abolished.

Want to be in a union? Join one.

Dont want to be in a union? Don't join.

 

 

 

 

 

This right to work (for less) law just allows the leeches to not pay for those services.

 

 

 

 

from article:

(a) The only reason that freeloading is even a possibility is because unions have written their exclusive bargaining rights into law. If unions would give up their monoply over bargaining, individual workers would be able to negotiate on their own behalf or form alternative unions. (b) Many states actually require workers to pay some dues to cover the costs of bargaining and, if I were the unions, that's what I'd be trying to get right now rather than using up my political capital to stalling the entire legislation.

[marshallnoise]

 

Originally Posted by diocide

Socialism is a funny thing. It's a big scary thing that everyone should hate, but EVERYONE at one point or another uses one of, if not all of the socialist institutions we have here in America.

 

Socialism's main component is a state directed private industry. Asking the government to keep a military to defend us abroad and asking the government to supervise and maintain infrastructure does not equal socialism in and of itself.

[marshallnoise]

Socialism is a funny thing. It's a big scary thing that everyone should hate, but EVERYONE at one point or another uses one of, if not all of the socialist institutions we have here in America.

 

 

Socialism's main component is a state directed private industry. Asking the government to keep a military to defend us abroad and asking the government to supervise and maintain infrastructure does not equal socialism in and of itself.

[Miter Gauge]

I don't have much personal knowledge on the subject but I have an anecdote to add.

 

My best friend is the director of HR for a large manufacturing firm in Chicago and, among other things, he is involved in negotiating wages and other compensation items for the firms various plants across the US.

 

This guy is about as right as you can get and, predictably, he thinks unions were much needed at one time but he feels that they've out lived their usefulness.

 

However, he says he likes negotiating with union plants because they honor the length of the contract and don't keep coming back to re-negotiate. He says it's much easier to budget if you can project labor costs accurately for a few years.

[ComOp]

Another argue with talking points from "conservative radio" guy thread. Yay.

[JimAnsell]

truth. i looked into it, i would make $5,000 less a year if i lived in a right to work state doing the same job.

 

 

wow thats the exact number the papers keep giving, as an "Average salary amount lowered" example in RTW states vs NON-RTW states. what are the odds.

[diocide]

Socialism's main component is a state directed private industry. Asking the government to keep a military to defend us abroad and asking the government to supervise and maintain infrastructure does not equal socialism in and of itself.

 

 

Fire departments used to be private industry, back around WW1 and WW2.

 

So what about state funded private industry? Like the privatized prisons, defense contractors etc that rely SOLEY on the government, why aren't those on the hit list for the conservatives? What about farming subsidies? Theres all this talk about how we need to get government out of our lives, but without it, you'd be paying 10$ a gallon for gas, and you probably couldn't afford half the food you eat.

[Kidbs]

truth. i looked into it, i would make $5,000 less a year if i lived in a right to work state doing the same job.

 

 

Have you factored in any cost of living differences in that along with not having to pay union fees? I live in a right to work state and I've frequently seen that I make more than some unionized states.

 

I'm a liberal and even I think that unions are not needed. If I'm doing a {censored}ty job then I deserve to be fired. If a company is losing money and can't afford to pay my salary any longer, well that's part of living in a capitalist society. Unions cause more problems in this day in age than any good that they may do.

[guitarbilly74]

I don't know what to think about this... I have never had an union job and it didn't stop me from getting a career that pays me well.... I tend to think that if I can do it without unions, so can other people. But maybe it's different for other professions, I am not sure.

[Kidbs]

 

truth. i looked into it, i would make $5,000 less a year if i lived in a right to work state doing the same job.

 

 

Have you factored in any cost of living differences in that along with not having to pay union fees? I live in a right to work state and I've frequently seen that I make more than some unionized states.

 

I'm a liberal and even I think that unions are not needed. If I'm doing a {censored}ty job then I deserve to be fired. If a company is losing money and can't afford to pay my salary any longer, well that's part of living in a capitalist society. Unions cause more problems in this day in age than any good that they may do. People act like they will be forced to work in sweatshops making slave-labor salaries... lol.

[JimAnsell]

 

I don't buy that drinking on the job BS. That is a {censored}ing huge ass OSHA fine. No company would take that risk, no matter what the union tried to do. .

 

 

well hate to tell ya dude, but the facts don't lie.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YaQCsrDfdY

 

 

 

 

this {censored} has been going on since the early 70's.

Drugs, number running, drinking, prostitution.

ask anyone who has worked in an auto plant in this city, at any point in time.

ask her:

 

I work in food service. the union i am in TAKES $50 out of our paychecks every week. This ensures that our lazy ass dishwasher who steals, has shown up intoxicated on multiple occasions, brags about and seems to be proud of his poor work habbits, CAN NOT get fired.

 

I work hard, and my bosses like me. I go to work, work, get paid, then go home. I don't feel entitled to anything beyond that. I do my part, they do theirs.

My employer offers health insurance, and feeds us good cause there is plenty of food around. The pay is competitive, the conditions are good, that is my incentive to work hard for them.

These union jockeys act like every employer WANTS to treat their laborers like {censored}.

 

If your job is "grant funded", and its now gone because of this bill, you knew that when you accepted the position, sorry.

the governments job isn't to hold your hand.

[sleewell]

does being in a union protect your job security or does being good at your job and working hard?

i get the purpose of unions in a perfect world but lets be honest, that is not happening right now.

there has to be middle ground, one side is not 100% right.

[Frets99]

The whole point of this bill is to ALLOW people to take lower wages. Some people can't see the big picture.

 

 

Whatever the purpose of the bill is, in the end the individual worker has the right to consider if the union is worth the dues. Sounds like freedom and democracy all rolled into one to me.

[marshallnoise]

 

Fire departments used to be private industry, back around WW1 and WW2. So what about state funded private industry? Like the privatized prisons, defense contractors etc that rely SOLEY on the government, why aren't those on the hit list for the conservatives? What about farming subsidies? Theres all this talk about how we need to get government out of our lives, but without it, you'd be paying 10$ a gallon for gas, and you probably couldn't afford half the food you eat.

 

 

Fire departments are still volunteer all over the country. Only local governments employ firefighters and possibly states like CDF here in Cali. There are no federal firefighters. Federalism, by definition, allows states to decide what is best for them as far as providing services and the federal government shouldn't be doing those things that can be done at a local level effectively and efficiently. Plus it affords the individual to vote with his feet and move to a different state if he doesn't agree with his current state's state.

 

Corporate welfare of all varieties are on the hit lists of conservatives. You are confusing neo-con's and progressive republicans for conservatives. George Bush does not equal conservatism at all. I don't think you can honestly say that we would be paying $10 a gallon for gas or we couldn't afford the half the food we eat. What you are saying is that the government infact forces gas prices down and food prices down. This simply economically hollow. Government telling farmers to farm what the government wants vs what the market wants = artificial prices for all things in agriculture. We don't know what a busshel of corn would cost because the government's hands are so deep in the operation. Same goes for sugar, dairy, meat, etc. We simply can't tell what prices would be. And I fail to see how the government keeps fuel prices low.

 

Where do you get this stuff from?

[Krank'N]

Unions are like safety belts and airbags- corporations said "you dont need them" and it takes a passage of a law to get them adopted. Also, many wont appreciate either airbags or unions until they really need them.

[ComOp]

 

Fire departments are still volunteer all over the country. Only local governments employ firefighters and possibly states like CDF here in Cali. There are no federal firefighters. Federalism, by definition, allows states to decide what is best for them as far as providing services and the federal government shouldn't be doing those things that can be done at a local level effectively and efficiently. Plus it affords the individual to vote with his feet and move to a different state if he doesn't agree with his current state's state. Corporate welfare of all varieties are on the hit lists of conservatives. You are confusing neo-con's and progressive republicans for conservatives. George Bush does not equal conservatism at all. I don't think you can honestly say that we would be paying $10 a gallon for gas or we couldn't afford the half the food we eat. What you are saying is that the government infact forces gas prices down and food prices down. This simply economically hollow. Government telling farmers to farm what the government wants vs what the market wants = artificial prices for all things in agriculture. We don't know what a busshel of corn would cost because the government's hands are so deep in the operation. Same goes for sugar, dairy, meat, etc. We simply can't tell what prices would be. And I fail to see how the government keeps fuel prices low. Where do you get this stuff from?

 

 

You have no {censored}ing clue what you are talking about.

 

Volunteer fire departments are still publicly funded usually by a combination of county, state, federal and local city funds. Fire apparatus, the buildings they house them in and the gear/training the volunteers use are omfg expensive. There are in fact, federal firefighters. They work for the US Forest service.

[Rock Hardness]

For the record, I am a Union Electrician. I also got some sleep, so I won't swear at people this time.

 

I'm not going to bother reading through all the anecdotes and Fox News labor bashing previously posted. I am just going to say that when you paint unions with a broad brush you marginalize their accomplishments - accomplishments that affect not only members, but workers everywhere.

 

I am able to make a good living (when there is work....it's finally picking up again for me), afford health care, dental and vision care for my wife and myself, and save money for retirement. I work with well trained people who aren't going to get me killed or injured because they don't know what they are doing - my local will actually bounce people that are incompetent! I don't have to worry about getting fired over some silly dispute because my employers have an understanding with my union about what an employer's responsibiliies are, and what my responsibilities are as a worker in the form of a legal contract.

 

That's all I have to say about this. Enjoy your {censored}storm, guys.