Members blargh Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Muffin Man Look up the n-body problem, mathematics cannot tell you exactly what how gravity will affect a 3+ body system. I would never assume that everything that exists can be explained deterministically. I think the question of whether the universe is deterministic or not is kind of irrelevant to the question of free will. If your brain state at a given instant is the product of a predictable, deterministic sequence of states of the universe, or whether these states are non-deterministic and random, in either case, you don't have a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Deconstruction Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Deep thoughts...I had a lot of those moments in my early 20's, then i just slowly stopped caring about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members isvoid Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Deconstruction Deep thoughts... I had a lot of those moments in my early 20's, then i just slowly stopped caring about anything. So you used to be apathetic but now you just don't care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knucklefux Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Mike LX-R Ok now we're getting somewhere. Knuck, the pineal gland is where DMT is naturally produced in the body. Once calcified it does not allow the steady release, albeit in tiny amounts, of DMT. Think about it man... coming from a guy who was saying that your brain is where decisions are made on your behalf. If you are unable to tap into this molecule naturally you're decisions are affected. You're whole perception is changed. It's the fluoride.... beware the fluoride.... they don't want us in tune with our natural access to spirituality. And whether you believe that or not, why the {censored} do they put fluoride in the tap water anyway? There's no conclusive evidence that it helps anything, whatsoever. Why is it there? What i've found so far is that pineal calcification is a natural process. Fluoride is in our water so we don't have {censored}ty teeth like the british it also kills algae and fungi, just like chlorine. Take some time off from the health nut conspiracy sites, son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 SoOOoo... it follows that people ... who live in locales or countries that do not fluoridate their water... exhibit free will to a great extent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knucklefux Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 not at all.they exhibit {censored}ty and/or rotted out teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by knucklefux not at all. they exhibit {censored}ty and/or rotted out teeth. B-but they could have made the choice to buy fluoride rinse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ej Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 I am eating a salad. That said, protect your precious bodily fluids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members timrocker Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Didn't Gurdjieff make the observation that one would have to develop the will, in order to have one? Like, devote the formative stage of your life to exercising intentional behaviour instead of just "reacting" to external stimuli? I think it would take an enormous amount of energy and time, and if it worked you'd wind up unwelcome in almost every society but the company of others who had achieved it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Why would that make one unwelcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members timrocker Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 I'm just guessing about that. If it's not normal to have and exercise a will, how could someone stand to be around someone that abnormal? From either perspective? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Mike LX-R there's a {censored} tone of research. you can easily find it, as well as problems caused by it. calcification of any gland is bad news for your biochemistry. so my point in all of this is that if you choose to live in a way that vastly alters the overall composition of your neurological function, then you've affected the conditions which according to you dictate the choices that you make. we are definitely players in our own destiny for sure, that's what I'm getting at. Uh...the idea is that you DON'T CHOOSE Your example presumes free will to prove free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Mike LX-R I've yet to find any scientific evidence to deny the existence of free will either Last I checked, there was evidence to support the idea that we are given our experience of choice after the choice is made by our brains. We have some predictive power by measuring certain signals in the brain. Better than chance, we can tell you which choice you will make before you make it. In other words, before you experience choosing the red pill over the blue pill, the data was already in that showed you would pick the red pill. Maybe the predictive power is better these days, I dont know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike LX-R Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by knucklefux What i've found so far is that pineal calcification is a natural process. Fluoride is in our water so we don't have {censored}ty teeth like the british it also kills algae and fungi, just like chlorine. Take some time off from the health nut conspiracy sites, son. I'll need your credible citation regarding improved dental health through fluoride use, kind sir... you'll find the data to be... conflicting, at best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike LX-R Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Rear Naked Last I checked, there was evidence to support the idea that we are given our experience of choice after the choice is made by our brains. We have some predictive power by measuring certain signals in the brain. Better than chance, we can tell you which choice you will make before you make it. In other words, before you experience choosing the red pill over the blue pill, the data was already in that showed you would pick the red pill. Maybe the predictive power is better these days, I dont know. The argument I'm making goes hand in hand with what Knuckle was saying. Take what you've just wrote, which is essentially what he's also saying, and now consider the fact that if the brain makes choices for you based on it's current biochemical make-up that altering (by choice mind you!) it's biochemical make-up you have altered the choices it will make for you. You have a level of control... you can change the brain's working environment significantly which changes the possibilities of choices it will make, on your behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Mike LX-R The argument I'm making goes hand in hand with what Knuckle was saying. Take what you've just wrote, which is essentially what he's also saying, and now consider the fact that if the brain makes choices for you based on it's current biochemical make-up that altering (by choice mind you!) it's biochemical make-up you have altered the choices it will make for you. You have a level of control... you can change the brain's working environment significantly which changes the possibilities of choices it will make, on your behalf. Just don't view the brain as an independent agent. Think of it as a computer with a program. If the computer's sensors input data then that data can cause the program to arrive at different outcomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ron Burgandy Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Can someone stating we don't have free will please define their version of free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike LX-R Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Sandy Cheeks Just don't view the brain as an independent agent. Think of it as a computer with a program. If the computer's sensors input data then that data can cause the program to arrive at different outcomes. Ok. Then I am sysadmin. I recently debugged my operating system by stopping drinking caffeine and stopping smoking. I also don't eat fast food crap and get better sleep. My computer is running a lot faster and with less glitches this year vs. the last... so it makes different decisions now because of it. I'm glad I chose to change all those things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blargh Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy Can someone stating we don't have free will please define their version of free will? Let's say we rewind the universe by a day. You have no knowledge of the future, no additional knowledge at all, your mental state goes back to exactly that point. Would you have the power to do anything differently? If you can't, then it seems like free will and conscious choice are illusory, because then your mind is basically an extraordinarily intricate analog computer that responds to stimuli in a predictable way, and sees other options but has no possibility of taking them in that moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sandy Cheeks Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by blargh Let's say we rewind the universe by a day. You have no knowledge of the future, no additional knowledge at all, your mental state goes back to exactly that point. Would you have the power to do anything differently? If you can't, then it seems like free will and conscious choice are illusory, because then your mind is basically an extraordinarily intricate analog computer that responds to stimuli in a predictable way, and sees other options but has no possibility of taking them in that moment. That is coming close to determinism. Suppose there were no "intelligent life forms" on a planet and we did this rewind experiment. What if the weather turned out differently because of quantum mechanics? No one would call that free will. Maybe we could start with a discussion of the Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will. For me, "free will" involves an appeal to the supernatural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Mike LX-R The argument I'm making goes hand in hand with what Knuckle was saying. Take what you've just wrote, which is essentially what he's also saying, and now consider the fact that if the brain makes choices for you based on it's current biochemical make-up that altering (by choice mind you!) it's biochemical make-up you have altered the choices it will make for you. You have a level of control... you can change the brain's working environment significantly which changes the possibilities of choices it will make, on your behalf. No it doesn't. You're wrong. Again, you are presupposing free will to prove free will. See highlighted portion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike LX-R Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Rear Naked No it doesn't. You're wrong. Again, you are presupposing free will to prove free will. See highlighted portion It's my contention that a change in my brain's environment was my choice to make happen. sorry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rear Naked Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Mike LX-R It's my contention that a change in my brain's environment was my choice to make happen. sorry? Yeah that is the point. You start with that idea, and are using the consequences as an argument FOR that same position. Your idea has nothing at all to do with anything Knucklefux and me are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fly135 Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Muffin Man Look up the n-body problem, mathematics cannot tell you exactly what how gravity will affect a 3+ body system. I would never assume that everything that exists can be explained deterministically. I think the point of the OP is not that things are deterministic by humans, but deterministic by the laws of nature. Only an omniscient being would be able see that it's deterministic. The n-body problem does not indicate that the forces of gravity are not deterministic. It indicates that our mathematics can only approximate the solution. And we can approximate to any degree necessary given enough time to compute the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike LX-R Posted December 28, 2012 Members Share Posted December 28, 2012 Originally Posted by Rear Naked Yeah that is the point. You start with that idea, and are using the consequences as an argument FOR that same position. Your idea has nothing at all to do with anything Knucklefux and me are saying. you haven't proven anything either Holmes. like I said in a much earlier post, all of the debating is based from speculative logic with loosely organized facts and theories and is for the most part nonsensical hullabaloo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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