Members Freeman Keller Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 "We are only a few short years of current logging practices away from seeing the end of any guitar-sized trees" He adds, "I would not normally speak for my competitors (Martin, Fender, Gibson) in a Taylor publication...(but) they all feel as passionately as I do about this." Wood and Steel, Fall 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceCowboy409 Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 I heard someone say that if you want an acoustic made from "traditional materials" you should buy soon. Honduran mahogany is scarce and Martin is making some necks out of cedar now. I didn't know sitka was going away too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guit30 Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 My guitar has a beautiful piece of solid Sitka spruce, I'm holding on to it. By the way, this is hard to believeJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EvilTwin Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 I've actually preferred cedar or mahogany for top woods lately, but it's a big deal if sitka is getting scarce. But I guess that's just how it goes. Red spruce got overused, Brazillian rosewood got overused, and now mahogany is getting rare, too. Then builders work with new materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 I don't know - I'm a bit skeptical since they churn our guitars like Keebler churns out cookies. Why not just close the spigot a little bit and keep producing products using their traditional methods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aeschylus Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 It's also possible that this is a marketing thing. Get people to think guitars as we know are going the way of the dinosaur and parachute pants and they will buy, buy, buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t60 fan Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 Not that I distrust Bob (or CFM or JL for that matter), but wouldn't that statement be a great way to (temporarily) boost guitar sales? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 Originally posted by t60 fan Not that I distrust Bob (or CFM or JL for that matter), but wouldn't that statement be a great way to (temporarily) boost guitar sales? Probably. I took one look at FK's post and immediately went panic-shopping on LMI... And I've never even attempted to build a guitar yet. Just know it's something I want to do in the future. I'll be damned if the freakin' world is gonna run out of spruce on me by the time I finally get situated... I hadn't been even dimly aware of an impending shortage of Sitka spruce. What a terrifying thought. Not that there aren't other viable top woods out there, but it'd suck for the standard to disappear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 Now he's talking about spruce, right? Not mahogany, which Taylor hasn't been using for the past few years anyway...? BTW - couldn't he just hit up his neighbor and pal Jean Larrivee for some of his stock? http://www.larrivee.com/flash/news/articles/2005_Spuce_1/article.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 26, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 I did not lift the quotes out of context. Bob said that he, and reps from the other big 3 US builders were guests of Greenpeace and the Native American company that "owns and logs the lion's share of what comes off private lands in Southeast Alaska". He states that guitar tonewoods comes from trees that are 300 years old or older. and that each time one is cut it won't be replaced because " we have no management plan that extends out to centuries from now". The four companies support the idea of "nudging our suppliers' logging practices into a sustainable operation, and without doing so we will all suffer soon". When the online version of Wood and Steel is finally posted I'll link to it, but I just thought I'd repeat some of old Bob's comments to get us thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Greymuzzle Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 For me the sustainability issue is important, even though it won't affect me. We seem to have accepted that guitars are 'consumables'. We talk about 'vintage' guitars, but how many of them are actually that old, or have lasted that well. Compare that to the like of Lloyd Webbers genuinely vintage Stradivarius Cello. A stuunning instrument hundreds of years old. We don't get that. Is it just us? Not maintaining ,restoring and respecting. Or are there isssues there for manufacturers in the constructional durability? I feel that technology might produce adequate materials tonally. A smart substitute but it won't be real, it won't be really organic, it won't look or smell in a way that touches souls. Like I don't think that they will ever make a doll that creates an irresistible compulsion to pick it up and nurture it like a real baby can. It just isn't going to be natural... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musima Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 It is already available online as a PDF download, Freeman:) (that was the first thing I did after reading this thread) http://www.taylorguitars.com/news/community/woodandsteel.html Although I can definitely see the short-term advantages of this strategy, sales-wise - I also think that, perhaps, we should start thinking of how many scarce resources, in a more general perspective, we're actually exploiting - in an acoustic guitar context I have this idea of building/commissioning an all-solid acoustic with good quality, but environmentally sustainable and plentiful European woods - such as beech, birch, pine, fruit trees (pear, cherry) etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 26, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 Thank you and I agree. I live in a rural farming area where fruit orchards were once common. Years ago I would pay $30 or so a chord for apple or pear firewood, now they bulldoze an orchard to plant wine grapes or condominiums and just burn the fruit trees in a big pile. I have a wood working friend who tries to rescue these old trees for cabinet work - I might try making my next (don't let my wife hear that) guitar out of cherry or apple wood. It is going to be real hard to replace that spruce top tho. Martin and Taylor EACH made 70,000 guitars last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted October 26, 2006 Members Share Posted October 26, 2006 Originally posted by Freeman Keller I did not lift the quotes out of context. Bob said that he, and reps from the other big 3 US builders were guests of Greenpeace and the Native American company that "owns and logs the lion's share of what comes off private lands in Southeast Alaska". He states that guitar tonewoods comes from trees that are 300 years old or older. and that each time one is cut it won't be replaced because " we have no management plan that extends out to centuries from now". Sheeeeit!!! Dr. Strangelove and How I Learned to Love Carbon Fiber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 27, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 Originally posted by riffmeister Sheeeeit!!!Dr. Strangelove and How I Learned to Love Carbon Fiber. yeah, but composits come from oil and we're running out of that too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted October 27, 2006 Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 Originally posted by Freeman Keller yeah, but composits come from oil and we're running out of that too didn't Torres make a guitar out of paper mache? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted October 27, 2006 Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 I wholeheartedly believe that they should churn back production. 70,000 guitars a year is just ridiculous IMO. How does their QC keep up, anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarist21 Posted October 27, 2006 Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 Originally posted by riffmeister didn't Torres make a guitar out of paper mache? I don't claim to be the craftsman that Freeman or anyone else around here is, but once I made a guitar out of a pizza box. I should take some pics... Ellen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bjorn-fjord Posted October 27, 2006 Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 As a luthier who lives in the middle of the largest sitka forests in the world, I would like to add my thoughts to this discussion. It needs to be pointed out that it is not guitar manufacturers that threaten the supply of the old growth forests in BC and Alaska. It is the governments and private logging contractors that have taken the attitude that high quality wood won't be around forever so let's make hay while the sun is shining. EDIT: 70,000 guitar tops is a tear drop in the ocean compared to what they are cutting each year to make dimensional lumber. Whenever I get on the highway I literally salivate as I am passed by an unending convoy of logging trucks loaded with giant sitka and red cedar logs that are headed overseas as raw, unmilled tree trunks. This is some of the most amazing wood we will ever see in our lifetimes and it is going to market as lumber (that isn't even milled in the countries where it is cut). To make matters worse, the bottom has fallen out of the lumber market so rather than slowing down production as other industries do, the companies are cranking it up to counter revenue shortfalls. To add insult to injury, the new softwood lumber trade agreement between the US and Canada has set maximum prices that wood can be sold for so there is no incentive for logging companies to try to grade soundboard quality wood higher than 2x4 wood. It's all the same thing in the eyes of the regulators and industry. I apologize for ranting but, as you've probably guessed, this issue is a major sore point for me. We are literally sitting on the last remaining remnants of the "golden age" of guitar soundboard wood and government regulation combined with industry greed are seeing to it that this wood cannot legally (in terms of trade) be recognized for the value it holds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted October 27, 2006 Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 Originally posted by bjorn-fjord Whenever I get on the highway I literally salivate as I am passed by an unending convoy of logging trucks loaded with giant sitka and red cedar logs that are headed overseas as raw, unmilled tree trunks. This is some of the most amazing wood we will ever see in our lifetimes and it is going to market as lumber. I said it before, but it's worth repeating: SHEEEEEEIT!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 27, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 bjorn, I live in the PNW and agree completely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted October 27, 2006 Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 Originally posted by guitarist21 I don't claim to be the craftsman that Freeman or anyone else around here is, but once I made a guitar out of a pizza box. I should take some pics... Ellen How long did you work at Taylor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 27, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 Originally posted by knockwood How long did you work at Taylor? of course Bob did build the famous Pallet Guitar. Complete with nail holes and an inlay of a fork truck on the fretboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted October 27, 2006 Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 Originally posted by Freeman Keller of course Bob did build the famous Pallet Guitar. Complete with nail holes and an inlay of a fork truck on the fretboard Got to play a Pallet Model (don't know if it was THE Pallet Model) at a guitar show some years ago...it sounded surprisingly fine! Oak (back and sides) and pine/poplar (top) CAN make for a nice sounding guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members recordingtrack1 Posted October 27, 2006 Members Share Posted October 27, 2006 Earlier when I started reading this thread I found myself thinking, "I wish I had something positive to add to this thread." But I don't know enough about tone woods or guitar building, etc to have anything useful to say. Well, all that seems to have gone out the window . . LOL:D The thing is, I have always promised myself I would purchase a real nice top of the line Martin sometime before I died, thinking (and hoping) that would be many years from now. Suddenly, I am thinking that maybe I should start making efforts to find that guitar a lot sooner, before the prices go completely out of sight. RT1:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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