Members recordingtrack1 Posted October 28, 2006 Members Share Posted October 28, 2006 I got my issue of Wood and Steel in the mail today and I read the article of which Freeman speaks. Creepy feeling. I know Musima posted the link to that article earlier but here it is again. Everyone should read it.http://www.taylorguitars.com/news/community/woodandsteel.html RT:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AK47 Posted October 29, 2006 Members Share Posted October 29, 2006 I've stated before that if we don't find a way to stop the strip mining of old growth lumber future guitarists will be playin steel bodied dobros. When the trees are gone tonewood might be the least of our problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cldplytkmn Posted October 29, 2006 Members Share Posted October 29, 2006 Originally posted by AK47 When the trees are gone tonewood might be the least of our problems. my thoughts exactly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted October 29, 2006 Members Share Posted October 29, 2006 I guess that means I shouldn't point out how much I miss having a nice roaring fire going in the fireplace in the wintertime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Musima Posted October 29, 2006 Members Share Posted October 29, 2006 Although I am aware that the amounts of timber utilised by the manufacturing of guitars don't hold a candle to e.g. "fine furniture" (I proudly buy mdf and veneers:D;)), the one-piece neck and especially the perceived superiority of this is another of my environmentally founded gripes - there is so much mahogany vasted when producing a one-piece mahogany neck and there is neither soundwise nor structural advantages to this approach - the laminated and two/three-piece necks can be made to equal standards and were actually de rigeur in Europe before..*rant over* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spiritofsparta Posted October 29, 2006 Members Share Posted October 29, 2006 Originally posted by t60 fan Not that I distrust Bob (or CFM or JL for that matter), but wouldn't that statement be a great way to (temporarily) boost guitar sales? You hit the nail right on the head I call bull{censored} on Bob Taylors Comments. Theres legions of Sitka Spruce up in Canada that will take centuries to make into acoustic guitar tops and we will all be dead long before its time for that stock to run out Folks the acoustic guitar market will crash in the next 12 months to where you can purchase top shelf solid wood guitars for less than $250 Hell I just bought a solid mahogany Washburn WD18Sw for $169 shipped People like Bob Taylor are just jive snake oil salesmen trying to make another buck before the guitar markets crashes to the sub $300 range for high end guitars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cldplytkmn Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by spiritofsparta You hit the nail right on the headI call bull{censored} on Bob Taylors Comments. Theres legions of Sitka Spruce up in Canada that will take centuries to make into acoustic guitar tops and we will all be dead long before its time for that stock to run outFolks the acoustic guitar market will crash in the next 12 months to where you can purchase top shelf solid wood guitars for less than $250Hell I just bought a solid mahogany Washburn WD18Sw for $169 shippedPeople like Bob Taylor are just jive snake oil salesmen trying to make another buck before the guitar markets crashes to the sub $300 range for high end guitars that's quite the statement... i'd love to see some evidence predicting an impending "crash" of the acoustic market... lets see some... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AndrewGG Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by spiritofsparta You hit the nail right on the headI call bull{censored} on Bob Taylors Comments. Theres legions of Sitka Spruce up in Canada that will take centuries to make into acoustic guitar tops and we will all be dead long before its time for that stock to run outFolks the acoustic guitar market will crash in the next 12 months to where you can purchase top shelf solid wood guitars for less than $250Hell I just bought a solid mahogany Washburn WD18Sw for $169 shippedPeople like Bob Taylor are just jive snake oil salesmen trying to make another buck before the guitar markets crashes to the sub $300 range for high end guitars Bob Taylor is no more likely to be able to predict the future of the guitar market than you, and, I would guess, being the astute, experienced businessman he is the odds of him being able to do so are marginally in his favour. I guess he knows the market pretty well.It's taken less than a century to use up all the Brazilian rosewood and Honduran mahogany is close to being so.If you read the following posts you will have noticed that it is not guitar builders who are the main culprits in depleting Sitka stocks but furniture and chipboard/plywood/blockboard/sawdust manufacturers.It is unwise to assume we have centuries worth of trees left. Recent history has proven otherwise.And with the greatest respect a $169 offshore built Washburn is not going to be made with the same quality timber Taylor uses for even their least expensive models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members clell adams Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 all you have to know is that he met with Greenpeace. The biggest liars outside of communist governments. There is no shortage. It's all propaganda to try and get the government to regulate all aspects of our life. There are so many big trees in the world, every person on earth could have an acoustic guitar made of real wood. And whoever said 70k guitars was too many is an idiot. Why don't you just volunteer to lower your salary? Puhleeze!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spiritofsparta Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by AndrewGG Bob Taylor is no more likely to be able to predict the future of the guitar market than you, and, I would guess, being the astute, experienced businessman he is the odds of him being able to do so are marginally in his favour. I guess he knows the market pretty well.It's taken less than a century to use up all the Brazilian rosewood and Honduran mahogany is close to being so.If you read the following posts you will have noticed that it is not guitar builders who are the main culprits in depleting Sitka stocks but furniture and chipboard/plywood/blockboard/sawdust manufacturers.It is unwise to assume we have centuries worth of trees left. Recent history has proven otherwise.And with the greatest respect a $169 offshore built Washburn is not going to be made with the same quality timber Taylor uses for even their least expensive models. Ok but that still doesnt change the fact of the millions of square miles of Canadian Sitka Spruce that will take decades alone to cut down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members spiritofsparta Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by Cldplytkmn that's quite the statement... i'd love to see some evidence predicting an impending "crash" of the acoustic market... lets see some... Your google-Fu is quite weak. Its everywhere buddy. There are at least 50 solid wood acosutics in the sub $500 rnge being currently manufactured for sale on the market today. Dont even get started on the electric guitar market with all the neck thrus for sale 10 years ago this concept was impossiable at these prices Name brand acoustics are built marginally better that most of the high end offshore models for sale and I dont see spending the price difference when the ratio of value between the 2 is not justified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bjorn-fjord Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by spiritofsparta Ok but that still doesnt change the fact of the millions of square miles of Canadian Sitka Spruce that will take decades alone to cut down I have lived in the area of which you speak my entire life. My family has been in the forestry industry for 5 generations. I am a luthier. Here are a few facts for you to consider. - BC is a big province but Sitka spruce only grows within a mile or two of the coastline. - Most of the old growth Sitka in BC has already been cut. - Timber production right now is as high as it's ever been. - Most of the old growth Sitka is being used for dimensional lumber because trade laws do not allow top quality Sitka to be sold for any more than "lumber quality" Sitka. - Maybe 1 in 100 old growth Sitkas could be considered high grade instrument quality wood. Of these 1 in 100 trees, 99 percent of them are being used for dimensional lumber. There is one point on which we agree. Within decades, this wood will be gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AK47 Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by spiritofsparta There are at least 50 solid wood acosutics in the sub $500 rnge being currently manufactured for sale on the market today. Dont even get started on the electric guitar market with all the neck thrus for sale 10 years ago this concept was impossiable at these prices Name brand acoustics are built marginally better that most of the high end offshore models for sale and I dont see spending the price difference when the ratio of value between the 2 is not justified I would be the last one to tell anyone to choose their guitar by price. These entry level solid wood guitars have winners and loosers. They have not stood the test of time as far as durability. I would not compare any of the "high end" guitars built in some "Asian sweat shop" to something built buy the loving hands of a top luthier. This is not intended to be a racist remark because there are excellent builders of all races and nationalities. Its just these luthiers are not knocking off major mass production for peanuts. As far as the "vast supply" of Sitka Spruce, This was once said of Brazilian Rosewood, Red Spruce, and crude oil for gasoline as far as that goes. Someone whose name escapes me once said "If we fail to learn from history then we are doomed to repeat it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AndrewGG Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by clell adams all you have to know is that he met with Greenpeace. The biggest liars outside of communist governments. There is no shortage. It's all propaganda to try and get the government to regulate all aspects of our life. There are so many big trees in the world, every person on earth could have an acoustic guitar made of real wood. And whoever said 70k guitars was too many is an idiot. Why don't you just volunteer to lower your salary? Puhleeze!!! 'all you have to know is that he met with Greenpeace' Care to elaborate on this and explain the relevance? 'There is no shortage'. Google 'CITES' then come back and repeat that idiotic assertion-or are CITES liars too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lupus in fabula Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by bjorn-fjord - Most of the old growth Sitka is being used for dimensional lumber because trade laws do not allow top quality Sitka to be sold for any more than "lumber quality" Sitka. - Maybe 1 in 100 old growth Sitkas could be considered high grade instrument quality wood. Of these 1 in 100 trees, 99 percent of them are being used for dimensional lumber. This is pretty horrifying. I know zilch about the lumber industry but I cannot help but wonder if there isn't some other wood that can be used for "dimensional lumber" (building materials?). With Sitka spruce depleting with this kind of alarming rapidity, obviously in a few years' time these guys will have no choice but to find some alternative material for lumber anyway. So why not find an alternative NOW rather than waiting until irreversible damage is done? It's pretty maddening. I wonder what, if anything, can be done. From where I'm sitting, it feels as if there's no choice but to sit and watch in impotent horror while it all plays out. In the time it would take to stop what's happening from happening, it seems it will already have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 My intent in starting this thread was not to start an arguement about politics, forestry practices, or anything else. We have had several discussions about the decreasing supply of tonewoods for our beloved little boxes - Brazillian rosewood, Honduran and African mahogany, the shift by Martin to "select hardwood" (spanish cedar) for necks, sapele as a replacement for 'hog, ovakgol as a replacement for rose, the fact that you can hardly find Adi (red) spruce, and now a statement by Bob Taylor, backed by Martin, Gibson and Fender, that sitka spruce is in short supply. Spruce is not a traditional wood for making 2x4's or chipboard - it is a lightweight high strength wood that has been used for wooden boat frames and fabric aircraft and musical instruments. I don't believe Bob's statements are scare tactics (any more than I believe Paul Robert's that within 35 to 50 years we will run out of oil, but that is another subject). I happen to applaud Taylor and Martin for continuing to try to find ways to build instruments when faced by shortages of materials. Bjorn hits on a personal subject of mine. I live in Washington State and spend a lot of time in B.C. It sickens me to see our old growth forests stripped and the logs sent overseas for millng - our most modern sawmills can't compete. Forest companies make a big fuss that they are replanting coastal forests - mostly with fast growing softwoods to make plup. Yeah, plup - chipboard, cardboard, paper. News paper, toilet paper, cardboard boxes. I'm personally politically active in these area and this forum isn't where I want to air my politics. But I just wrote a check to a conservation and land trust organization that I believe in - more than a lot of nice guitars cost. It is my small way of trying to ensure that my grandchildren will be able to see a tree and play a wooden guitar. As Judy Collins said "they cut down the trees and put 'em in a tree museum... paved paradise and put up a parking lot". (played on a Martin OM-28 I believe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AndrewGG Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by Freeman Keller My intent in starting this thread was not to start an arguement about politics, forestry practices, or anything else. We have had several discussions about the decreasing supply of tonewoods for our beloved little boxes - Brazillian rosewood, Honduran and African mahogany, the shift by Martin to "select hardwood" (spanish cedar) for necks, sapele as a replacement for 'hog, ovakgol as a replacement for rose, the fact that you can hardly find Adi (red) spruce, and now a statement by Bob Taylor, backed by Martin, Gibson and Fender, that sitka spruce is in short supply.Spruce is not a traditional wood for making 2x4's or chipboard - it is a lightweight high strength wood that has been used for wooden boat frames and fabric aircraft and musical instruments. I don't believe Bob's statements are scare tactics (any more than I believe Paul Robert's that within 35 to 50 years we will run out of oil, but that is another subject). I happen to applaud Taylor and Martin for continuing to try to find ways to build instruments when faced by shortages of materials.Bjorn hits on a personal subject of mine. I live in Washington State and spend a lot of time in B.C. It sickens me to see our old growth forests stripped and the logs sent overseas for millng - our most modern sawmills can't compete. Forest companies make a big fuss that they are replanting coastal forests - mostly with fast growing softwoods to make plup. Yeah, plup - chipboard, cardboard, paper. News paper, toilet paper, cardboard boxes.I'm personally politically active in these area and this forum isn't where I want to air my politics. But I just wrote a check to a conservation and land trust organization that I believe in - more than a lot of nice guitars cost. It is my small way of trying to ensure that my grandchildren will be able to see a tree and play a wooden guitar. As Judy Collins said"they cut down the trees and put 'em in a tree museum... paved paradise and put up a parking lot". (played on a Martin OM-28 I believe) Good for you Freeman, you have my respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazzputin Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 For one thing, trees should never be used as paper pulp, when so many other alternative plant sources are viable for paper but not for lumber uses. Maybe more manufacturers will start working with Adirondack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by Jazzputin Maybe more manufacturers will start working with Adirondack. Which is even more rare and expensive than Sitka (at LMI right now Adi is going for $200 a set, Sitka $76 for master grade). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cldplytkmn Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by spiritofsparta Your google-Fu is quite weak. Its everywhere buddy.There are at least 50 solid wood acosutics in the sub $500 rnge being currently manufactured for sale on the market today. Dont even get started on the electric guitar market with all the neck thrus for sale10 years ago this concept was impossiable at these pricesName brand acoustics are built marginally better that most of the high end offshore models for sale and I dont see spending the price difference when the ratio of value between the 2 is not justified you still need to back up your statement that "high end" guitars are going to fall into the Sub- $300 range. Can you see the future? I don't think that the fact that the lower end of the spectrum has improved has any bearing on the price of the higher end of the spectrum "crashing"... lowering the standard of what is "high end" is one way to try to make your theory work, but its just not correct. The offshore, albeit solid wood, guitars that you're referencing are simply not "high end" guitars, IMO and i'm sure alot of other people share that opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lupus in fabula Posted October 30, 2006 Members Share Posted October 30, 2006 Originally posted by Cldplytkmn lowering the standard of what is "high end" is one way to try to make your theory work, but its just not correct. The offshore, albeit solid wood, guitars that you're referencing are simply not "high end" guitars, IMO and i'm sure alot of other people share that opinion. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.