Members Gary Palmer Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 Say it to my face! pmsl I hope your prospective students or their parents are reading your offerings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 pmsl I hope your prospective students or their parents are reading your offerings. Please, don't punch me in the face, internet tough guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 What's wrong with you people??Ah, another ray of sunshine at HCAG!!! Thank you for posting this, it gives me hope that somewhere out there are people who know right from wrong. GP, maybe the herd would like to praise your comeback and have a party insulting me, but I'm not gonna bother reading it. Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members revive Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 Ah, another ray of sunshine at HCAG!!!Thank you for posting this, it gives me hope that somewhere out there are people who know right from wrong.GP, maybe the herd would like to praise your comeback and have a party insulting me, but I'm not gonna bother reading it.Have a nice day. Others don't need to insult you. You're already doing it to yourself. Sorry, I don't normally take part in this kind of internet tete a tete. I just feel dumbfounded by your earlier post. If it was a joke, I simply didn't get it. I hope it's not an accurate reflection of the person you are. Because I don't want to further escalate this, this will likely be my last post in this 'conversation'. G'day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 Jeez, is there something in the water here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Palmer Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 Ah, another ray of sunshine at HCAG!!!Thank you for posting this, it gives me hope that somewhere out there are people who know right from wrong.GP, maybe the herd would like to praise your comeback and have a party insulting me, but I'm not gonna bother reading it.Have a nice day. So says the feeling sorry for himself comeback Queen. Grow up and get a life lad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Palmer Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 Please, don't punch me in the face, internet tough guy. awww, so says the bald bloke with an attitude deficit. Your nothing but a fat little {censored} stirrer at the end of the day. What goes around comes around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members missedmyexit Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 Wow I enjoy a good flame thread but this is getting a little uncomfortable. Can we all agree that it is impossible to punch someone in the face via forum? Good.. Since the question was asked and answered I got another that's more of a discussion then a straight yay or nay. Is handmade guitars better then factory made? Before we get started lets get some stuff out in the open. I do not intend this to be a slight on our fellow guitar builders. Handmade CUSTOM guitars is a difference beast all together. Mainstream manufactured guitars like Martin Taylor and Gibson on the other hand are a different story. Wouldn't CNC machines and machine finishing help Quality Control? I mean everyone that works or worked for a living knows that there are people good at their job and people that are OK. So what if I get the guitar built by the guy who's been mailing it in for six months and on the verge of getting fired? Why shouldn't every D28 off the line sound, look and measure as close as possible to the rest? I saw a video once, and this is not conjecture it actually showed the process and can be proven, of Taylors finishing process. They use electromagnetic Engery, charge the guitar and paint to opposites so the finish sticks. Machines apply this to get a even finish each time. Is this really a service we should look down on because it's not "Handmade finish"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 Others don't need to insult you. You're already doing it to yourself.Sorry, I don't normally take part in this kind of internet tete a tete. I just feel dumbfounded by your earlier post. If it was a joke, I simply didn't get it. I hope it's not an accurate reflection of the person you are.Because I don't want to further escalate this, this will likely be my last post in this 'conversation'. G'day.Yes, it was dark iriony, and I thought it was obvious. My mistake. But, it seems all kinds of obvious stuff is overlooked here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members larry50 Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 Wow I enjoy a good flame thread but this is getting a little uncomfortable. Can we all agree that it is impossible to punch someone in the face via forum? Good.. Since the question was asked and answered I got another that's more of a discussion then a straight yay or nay. Is handmade guitars better then factory made? Before we get started lets get some stuff out in the open. I do not intend this to be a slight on our fellow guitar builders. Handmade CUSTOM guitars is a difference beast all together. Mainstream manufactured guitars like Martin Taylor and Gibson on the other hand are a different story.Wouldn't CNC machines and machine finishing help Quality Control? I mean everyone that works or worked for a living knows that there are people good at their job and people that are OK. So what if I get the guitar built by the guy who's been mailing it in for six months and on the verge of getting fired? Why shouldn't every D28 off the line sound, look and measure as close as possible to the rest? I saw a video once, and this is not conjecture it actually showed the process and can be proven, of Taylors finishing process. They use electromagnetic Engery, charge the guitar and paint to opposites so the finish sticks. Machines apply this to get a even finish each time. Is this really a service we should look down on because it's not "Handmade finish"? At least at Martin, it seems to be a compromise between efficiency, quality control and old fashioned guitar making. While Martin bandsaws the rough neck blanks, they say that finishing them with CNC allows them to rapidly make many more necks much more accurately and with a higher degree of quality than hand rasping would do. OTOH, they think that hand making the body and assembling the neck and body by hand makes for a better guitar. On the other other hand, Martin says that computerized buffing and polishing produces a better finish and with less errors like burn through than hand polishing would accomplish. That said, I think that the Taylor's are a bit more consistent, guitar to guitar, than Martin's. You have to work a little bit to find a really good Martin, less so with Taylor IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevieb Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 ...they say...OTOH...On the other other hand How many hands do you have?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 awww, so says the bald bloke with an attitude deficit. Your nothing but a fat little {censored} stirrer at the end of the day. What goes around comes around. And you are the angry little guitar maker that threatens people that disagree with him on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members larry50 Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 How many hands do you have?? I'm a very handy person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members missedmyexit Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 At least at Martin, it seems to be a compromise between efficiency, quality control and old fashioned guitar making. While Martin bandsaws the rough neck blanks, they say that finishing them with CNC allows them to rapidly make many more necks much more accurately and with a higher degree of quality than hand rasping would do. OTOH, they think that hand making the body and assembling the neck and body by hand makes for a better guitar. On the other other hand, Martin says that computerized buffing and polishing produces a better finish and with less errors like burn through than hand polishing would accomplish. That said, I think that the Taylor's are a bit more consistent, guitar to guitar, than Martin's. You have to work a little bit to find a really good Martin, less so with Taylor IMO. But do you wonder if Martin and others do things like hand sawing the neck blanks just to add that "HandMade" to the label? I mean I could buy the idea sculpting the braces should be done on a guitar by guitar basis but I can't think of any reason the CNC machine couldn't cut the neck blanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave W. Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 I am with MME on this one. There are many places in an acoustic guitar that benefit from CNC technology. I would rather have a machine placing my fret slots, than a human that might be having a bad day for any number of reasons. Not that machines don't make mistakes, but current technology is to the point where they are very accurate and reliable. There are areas, like tap tuning a top and wood selection for example, that benefit from a human touch. Lucky us to have access to the best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members larry50 Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 But do you wonder if Martin and others do things like hand sawing the neck blanks just to add that "HandMade" to the label? I mean I could buy the idea sculpting the braces should be done on a guitar by guitar basis but I can't think of any reason the CNC machine couldn't cut the neck blanks. I agree. For example, Taylor uses a somewhat automated process to assemble their bolt-on necks, while Martin joins the the body and neck with dovetail or mortise and tenon joints fitted by hand. I suppose that Martin could CNC the neck blanks too, but there must be some reason beyond mere tradition for bandsawing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oldskool Texas Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 really interesting to know about Martin brand facts , gibson as well.... My understanding is that all Gibson acoustics are currently made in Bozeman, MT. Thier website says this: "Gibson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members larry50 Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 My understanding, based on thier website, is that all Gibson acoustics are made in Bozeman, MT: "Gibson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 I consider some of the "hand crafted" and "hand built" lingo to be tied more to marketing than anything else. It's almost like "home style" soup sold in a can..... There will always be hands involved at some stage in the guitar manufacturing process.....how much and to what degree is the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tbry Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 Whats cool is you never know about past posts between members unless you hang around long enough to see some flame ups. Everybody loves a train wreck. Blood on the tracks!! Flame on!!...not meant for anything other then the entertainment value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members missedmyexit Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 I consider some of the "hand crafted" and "hand built" lingo to be tied more to marketing than anything else.It's almost like "home style" soup sold in a can.....There will always be hands involved at some stage in the guitar manufacturing process.....how much and to what degree is the question. I agree, but is handcrafted in mass produced guitars a plus to consumers? It is something you look for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Palmer Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 And you are the angry little guitar maker that threatens people that disagree with him on the internet. Nope, wrong on all counts again Budda-like. This is what I said in response to an all too unfounded slur made by seagullplayer. Say that sort of thing to me face to face and I'll punch your {censored}ing lights out. That is a statement of fact and not a threat. Wise arsed nameless chicken {censored} that you are. This is what he said to spark my interest; Are you sure about that, Gary? I seem to recall reading somewhere---maybe it was in a recent thread or something---that your skills as a luthier are somewhat . . . questionable . That was an unfounded insinuation by someone all too ready to libel my professional reputation in a public place. What I said was simply a cool headed statement of fact and nothing to do with threats, anger or being a little guitar maker. Especially due to the fact I'm a tall, dark, very handsome and extremely cheerful LUTHIER who doesn't make threats. Will you ever get anything right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bjorn-fjord Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 The issue of hand-made vs. machine-made is of particular interest to me and is a question with which I have struggled. Before I provide my definintion I have a few thoughts on the topic. Obviously even the most anachronistic hand builders use machines. It's pretty difficult to resaw a chunk of rosewood with a cross-cut saw. Almost nobody cuts binding channels with a traditional violin purfling cutter. Is it even possible to cut a truss-rod channel in a neck without power-tools? OK it's possible but why bother? And why do so many assume that work performed by a hand tool will be better than the same job done with a router or table saw? I think it's at least partly due to the fact that we believe that older instruments sound better than newer instruments and that we misattribute the reasons why. I personally think so many old instruments sound great because they are old, not because they pre-date CNC machining. I also believe that the old instruments that exist today are not a fair representation of the quality of instruments produced many years ago because the really good ones were preserved and the so-so ones were "Darwined" out of existence. I will also suggest that Antonio Stradavari would have used a router if the technology existed 300 years ago. I'm guessing that anyone who would have suggested he was compromising quality by not using hand-tools would have received a punch in the face or at least a pretty good slap, as this was considered the ultimate insult in Italy in the 1680's . So anyway. The primary difference between the construction of an instrument by an independent luthier and a factory is that each guitar is built by fewer people, or in the case of truly independent custom builders, one person. I've worked as both an independent luthier and in a factory that produced many instruments per day. When I build an instrument by myself I am paying very close attention to the characteristics and properties of the specific pieces of wood I am using in a given guitar. If I notice that a top seems particularly stiff, I will compensate by bracing a little lighter. If a customer wants a little more bass response in a smaller guitar, I will build the top a little "looser" and the body a little deeper. This does not happen in a factory. Everything in a factory is built to pre-determined specifications. Every single soundboard I made in the factory was 3mm thick. No allowances are made for the inherent differences in materials. This is why there is so much variety in the finished products. Five seemingly identical om-28's will sound very different because wood is not a homogenous medium. And for those who disagree with me I'm gonna save you the trouble by giving myself a left hook. Ow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oldskool Texas Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 They have a factory in Canada too (the old Garrison factory) where they are making the more "budget" priced Songmaker series. Of course! I forgot about that -- although I thought I'd heard recently that they weren't doing that anymore... Regardless, I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Samilyn Posted December 4, 2009 Members Share Posted December 4, 2009 Jeez, is there something in the water here? Nah, Neil. Just the full moon.. Things will prolly calm down now that it's waning. But stick with beer, just to be on the safe side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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