Members gitnoob Posted March 22, 2012 Members Share Posted March 22, 2012 Where do we draw the lines between "craftsmen" and "factory workers." Using the Eastman example again, they put about 40 hours of hand-labor into each guitar. Several of them used to be independent luthiers -- mostly violin makers. Greven is said to put about 20 hours of labor into his guitars. Some of these hand-builders have good wood skills, but not necessarily good finishing skills, good voicing skills, etc. One of the interesting things Martin can do that these little guys can't is R&D. They make a bunch of test guitars to test various finishes to see how they interact with woods, case materials, environmental factors, etc. Some of these small shop guys may do similar tests, but you're buying their test case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 22, 2012 Members Share Posted March 22, 2012 Where do we draw the lines between "craftsmen" and "factory workers."Using the Eastman example again, they put about 40 hours of hand-labor into each guitar. Several of them used to be independent luthiers -- mostly violin makers.Greven is said to put about 20 hours of labor into his guitars.Some of these hand-builders have good wood skills, but not necessarily good finishing skills, good voicing skills, etc.One of the interesting things Martin can do that these little guys can't is R&D. They make a bunch of test guitars to test various finishes to see how they interact with woods, case materials, environmental factors, etc. Some of these small shop guys may do similar tests, but you're buying their test case. I view it as one person handling the entire build or one person supervising and working with a couple people to build the guitar. Nothing like the assembly line process approach used in production guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted March 22, 2012 Members Share Posted March 22, 2012 That's true sometimes. Some of the small shops do a small-scale assembly line. Ever seen how Olson builds his? Some of the independent luthiers have apprentices do some of their work. Some of them have CNC equipment. I like the lifestyle choice the small-shop guys have made. I would consider paying extra to help support their lifestyle or to have a "different" guitar. But some of the factory work is as good (or better) than some of the small-shop work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 22, 2012 Members Share Posted March 22, 2012 That's true sometimes. Some of the small shops do a small-scale assembly line. Ever seen how Olson builds his? Some of the independent luthiers have apprentices do some of their work. Some of them have CNC equipment.I like the lifestyle choice the small-shop guys have made. I would consider paying extra to help support their lifestyle or to have a "different" guitar. But some of the factory work is as good (or better) than some of the small-shop work. I forgot to add that I also consider the actual purchasing / selection of the tone woods as part of the equation - a very important part of the equation. Tim McKnight changed my opinion about luthier built guitars verse production built guitars. I actually spent time in his shop and time playing his guitars. There is a big difference in the level of skill and attention to detail in his guitars compared to the best production guitars. He is a true perfectionist - equal part engineer and craftsman. He is very picky about his tone woods and is constantly striving to improve his skills and his build process. If I ever decide to spend $6000 + on a guitar he will get my money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted March 22, 2012 Members Share Posted March 22, 2012 I've never played one of his guitars, but McKnight seems to know what he's doing. Wood selection and prep matters. Craftsmanship matters. Structural engineering matters. Voicing matters. Aesthetics matter. I only take issue with the idea of praising all "luthier-built" guitars. That's like praising all "starving artists." Some of them are starving for a good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sgt. Rock Posted March 22, 2012 Members Share Posted March 22, 2012 I can find good and bad attributes in lutier built and assembly line instruments, but the mass produced ones far outweigh the handbuilt ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hudman Posted March 22, 2012 Members Share Posted March 22, 2012 I've never played one of his guitars, but McKnight seems to know what he's doing. Wood selection and prep matters. Craftsmanship matters. Structural engineering matters. Voicing matters. Aesthetics matter. I only take issue with the idea of praising all "luthier-built" guitars. That's like praising all "starving artists." Some of them are starving for a good reason. Well, that's like saying all carpenters are great - or all doctors are great - or all teachers are great, etc, etc. There are bad people in every profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted March 22, 2012 Members Share Posted March 22, 2012 Right. That's why my original suggestion in this thread was to instead praise good luthiers who build affordable guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted March 23, 2012 Members Share Posted March 23, 2012 IMO if you're looking to play out a lot and plug in to an amp or a PA then a custom is not for you. Such guitars should be more about durability and inhibiting feedback while supporting a good pickup system. OTOH if you're looking to compose and be inspired by an instrument's unplugged tone and want something with specs that you chose AND you have the extra money, then a custom is for you. OTOH if you don't have the money but have the time and factory guitars leave you wanting then why not try your hand at building your own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 23, 2012 Members Share Posted March 23, 2012 I think you can tell a lot about a luthier by the tools he uses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted March 23, 2012 Members Share Posted March 23, 2012 Personally I wouldn't mind having a unique guitar. Back in college, I thought it was cool to own my Sakura 12-string when everybody and his dog had a Yamaha, Alvarez, Epiphone or maybe Harmony. When that Joshua Borsack "mini jumbo" (really an OM) cropped up locally, I would've bought it if it had been a dread. A one-of-a-kind hand made guitar for less than $1,000? Oh, yeah, baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jamesp Posted March 23, 2012 Members Share Posted March 23, 2012 Getting an instrument made exactly to your specs is the next best thing to making twenty and keeping the twenty-first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tony Burns Posted March 25, 2012 Author Members Share Posted March 25, 2012 I agree about the concept that how a guitar is played is more important that what wood it is made out of, and who made it. Real full time musicians ( were not talking about big stars but your local Bar players ) don't have instruments typically that are luthier built - maybe a guitar they bought in a music store for around a thousand -these folks feed their families with the work , and struggle to find the gigs. . Im not a full time musician , tried that and figured if i kept pursuing it Id end up like a couple of my friends - . My dad told me when i was a kid that typically folks who have nice stuff do other things to afford them -im glad i listened and went to college . I play out from time to time - and i like nice stuff , Im getting older and i guess maybe this is folly -But i love it. In the words of the famous Willy Wonka " A little folly now and then is cherished by the wisest men " * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted March 25, 2012 Members Share Posted March 25, 2012 Build vs buy is about the journey vs the destination. I find most destinations boring compared to the journey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 25, 2012 Members Share Posted March 25, 2012 Buying 1 vs making 21 and keeping the last: My people say buy. The idea of botching 20 guitars before finally making a keeper is pretty defeating. \nMy number one is still my go-to. And number 4 or 5 was my first 12 string and its my go-to 12. There is no reason the first can be good, and the rest just get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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