Members u6crash Posted September 27, 2012 Members Share Posted September 27, 2012 Two weeks from Sunday I am playing a solo acoustic show and both of my guitars need work. One has high action (I think due to a too high bone saddle I put in) and the saddle is angling back severely (I think I removed too much material from the front) and has some amount of fret wear causing a small amount of buzzing. The other has quite a bit of fret wear and may even need a couple frets replaced. The two luthiers I trust to do this work are booked leaving me with going to one I've never worked with before. From the prices on his website, i estimate the work I want to get done will be in excess of $350. There is a guitar I feel will be suitable for the show for sale at $350. Further, I'd kind of like to learn how to do some of this work myself. I could maybe invest $350 in tools to fix them, but I don't want to start tackling this right now with two weeks to go and uncertain of my skills (not to mention the fact that I'm living out of suitcases and boxes while I wait to close on my first house). I don't really need a third acoustic guitar, but wouldn't mind one. I could sell it later, but won't get what I pay for it. It would give me something without fretwear to play while I experiment on my existing guitars (neither of which, I should mention, are expensive instruments; don't worry, I'm not hacking away at a high dollar Martin or Taylor). And I'm also interested in building one of the StewMac acoustic kits one day (so a future investment in tools is something I'm planning on anyway). What would you do? I know if I bought a new guitar and in the next year I also built one I would probably start to sell a couple of them. Or maybe I'll be that weird guitar with several acoustic guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katopp Posted September 27, 2012 Members Share Posted September 27, 2012 Buy used.Less deprecation.Same (if not more) choice.(Significantly) lower prices. And, why not. I'm that guy with too many guitars anyway. Count'em in my sig... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LightenUpMcGraw Posted September 27, 2012 Members Share Posted September 27, 2012 I'm not sure what I'd do but seems to me you answered your own question. All signs point to getting the new guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OldGuitarPlayer Posted September 27, 2012 Members Share Posted September 27, 2012 What guitar are you thinking of buying for $350? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members u6crash Posted September 27, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 27, 2012 What guitar are you thinking of buying for $350? The Carvin Cobalt 250S. Not coincidentally, my other two guitars are Carvins, one an 850 with cutaway and Fishman electronics, the other a 350 with an added Dean Markley La Jolla combination soundhole and undersaddle pickup. I'm not usually a brand loyalist. Actually, now that I think about it I bought the 350 as a quick replacement when my 750 took a drop from about six feet and got cracked in the back. The 250 is the same as my 350 except it has a satin cedar top instead of mahogany. I've been pleased with the other two out of the box and would like to think that would repeat again. They are selling their remaining stock and not making these any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted September 27, 2012 Members Share Posted September 27, 2012 Sorry, I'm not up on the specs or pricing on Carvin acoustics. $350 indicates some significant repair work to be done and if it's more than half the value of the guitar I'd say that buying another seems to be more feasible. As for the work on the saddle you described, it doesn't cost a lot in materials to lower a saddle. All you need is a perfectly flat surface to sand the bottom uniformly and a block of wood that's got a perfectly perpendicular side to rest the saddle up against as you slide it over the sandpaper. Fretting OTOH can be costly. All of the fretting tools for sale at Stewart MacDonald seem to be pretty pricey but the work itself shouldn't be all that hard to figure out - although finishing the fret ends seems to be a challenge for even some professional building operations. What else is wrong with your guitars? Those two things alone don't seem to add up to $350 to me. BTW, if you're gonna try your hand at building you'll find there are workarounds to some of the pricey stuff out there. For example, a Fox bending machine can set you back more than $500 but then I've seen people forego them and fashioning molds and such and just use a piece of pipe and a blowtorch to bend wood with. I've probably spent a couple hundred on hand tools at Harbor Freight but you'll need clamps and they are cheap and plentiful there. I also signed up to get coupons from the local Rockler hardware which helped save a little $$$. You can build a lot of jigs yourself out of plywood or MDF and some of those fancy contraptions you see the pros using can be replaced with simpler tools. I made a gobar deck for about $60, a semi-solid mold for about $30 and even tried making some luthier clamps for about $3 apiece using materials from Home Depot and Lowes. If anything, it was good practice for woodworking on the actual guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Queequeg Posted September 27, 2012 Members Share Posted September 27, 2012 A new saddle plus fret dressing, even add in the two new fret replacements shouldn't add up to anything like $350. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarist21 Posted September 27, 2012 Members Share Posted September 27, 2012 A new saddle plus fret dressing, even add in the two new fret replacements shouldn't add up to anything like $350. I agree with Q and Kwak - if those are the only things wrong with your guitars and you're paying $350 to get all done that you're getting ripped off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted September 27, 2012 Members Share Posted September 27, 2012 Just to qualify, the only thing that should cost that much is a full blown neck reset - and even then only on a glued-in neck joint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LightenUpMcGraw Posted September 28, 2012 Members Share Posted September 28, 2012 Q and Kwak that sounds like a tv show where two guys from the future, one a Duck Hunter the other a Bartender go back in time and become big time Hollywood screen writers that solve crimes in their spare time. I hope you won't mind me suggesting a look at this all solid woods guitar I own that is amazing for only $369 plus $23 shipping. http://www.guitarfetish.com/OUR-BEST-Solid-Spruce-Top-Solid-Rosewood-Back-and-Sides-with-Binding_p_4274.html It's a lot of guitar for not much cheese and the sound/feel is top notch in every way. Fit and finish is excellent, I feel like I have a $2000 guitar for a song and a dance. Something to consider anyway. I did a full review of it here that's floating around somewhere. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members u6crash Posted September 28, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 28, 2012 I was going to get a new bone nut and saddle for both guitars, which the website of the place I was considering listed at $135 each (the one that needs lowering on mine is also out of size in the front and the strings are pulling it towards the nut). Replacing the saddles alone would be $80 each. Complete refret would be $250. Partial refrets are $60 each plus $18 for each fret replaced. I'm guessing at least two frets need to be replaced on the 350 and maybe up to two on the 750. And then there'st he fact that I've never dealt with this guy before and can't find much in the way of reviews online. Last year I took a setup at maintenance class at the Chicago School of Guitar Making. Though attending the class would cost me more than a whole refret, I'd get hands on instruction in fret dressing and get one of my existing guitars fixed (and the knowledge of how to do it myself in the future). So that's what I'm hoping to do. Assuming all goes well with this house I'm trying to buy (which is a bad assumption; it's not been going well) I may even sign up for the weekend seminar in November. I suppose I could just get one of my guitars serviced now and that would be cheaper than buying a new one now or fixing both of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted September 28, 2012 Members Share Posted September 28, 2012 I was going to get a new bone nut and saddle for both guitars, which the website of the place I was considering listed at $135 each (the one that needs lowering on mine is also out of size in the front and the strings are pulling it towards the nut). Replacing the saddles alone would be $80 each. Complete refret would be $250. Partial refrets are $60 each plus $18 for each fret replaced. I'm guessing at least two frets need to be replaced on the 350 and maybe up to two on the 750. And then there'st he fact that I've never dealt with this guy before and can't find much in the way of reviews online. Last year I took a setup at maintenance class at the Chicago School of Guitar Making. Though attending the class would cost me more than a whole refret, I'd get hands on instruction in fret dressing and get one of my existing guitars fixed (and the knowledge of how to do it myself in the future). So that's what I'm hoping to do. Assuming all goes well with this house I'm trying to buy (which is a bad assumption; it's not been going well) I may even sign up for the weekend seminar in November. I suppose I could just get one of my guitars serviced now and that would be cheaper than buying a new one now or fixing both of them. That seems like a pretty elaborate list of things to do. What you might ask yourself is are they all necessary? Also, can you think of any way to cut the costs by doing some of the work yourself? IMHO that's a bit steep for adding a saddle alone. For that price people have put in some pretty expensive stuff, not just your basic cow bone. I've bought semi-serviced bone saddles from www.guitarsaddles.com for about $20 apiece and they came with directions on how to finish and install them. As for replacing the nuts, unless your action is too low at the first fret or you have open strings buzzing I'd leave them alone. The only way I could see justifying swapping out a nut would be if I were switching from a heavier gauge string to a lighter gauge, otherwise the slots can be filed out. For that you need specialized tools though. As for the individual frets needing to be replaced, that sounds like it's necessary and that's probably where I'd just pay somebody else to do it. The specialized tools required are pricey. As for the work itself, how hard could it be? It's not like you have to cut new slots in the fingerboard. You just need to pull the old wire out. Now clipping the new wire and filing down the fret ends - THAT could be daunting. If you're looking to make money on the side doing setups then I'd consider taking the class, otherwise there are loads of tutorials online. Here's a video tutorial, for example: http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=30435 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OldTwelver Posted September 28, 2012 Members Share Posted September 28, 2012 I guess if it were me, I'd get another guitar (new or used) to "cover" the gig, ASAP. Get the others repaired when convenient for the luthiers you trust. Then you can decide which to keep later. Maybe all? I might see things differently if you weren't already booked ...... Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members u6crash Posted September 28, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 28, 2012 kwakatak, you're right about not needing to get the nut done. I just figured I might do it if I was getting the saddles done. I could maybe make my own saddles, but that's what I thought last time and it didn't turn out how I thought it should. I might have time to make my own saddles, but I'd really rather be practicing. As for taking the class, it's both something I want to know how to do to fix my own guitars and one day make some from scratch. The guy who teaches the class demonstrated a little bit in the last one I took and he has an approach which (I feel) is a little better than some of the standard practices I've seen. I think it's like a lot of things out there. Lots of people can put up drywall. Not all of them can put it up well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members u6crash Posted September 28, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 28, 2012 Hmm. Must have sold their last cedar topped satin guitar. Now I could either get one like I've got already or a satin mahogany. Or find some other solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted September 28, 2012 Members Share Posted September 28, 2012 kwakatak, you're right about not needing to get the nut done. I just figured I might do it if I was getting the saddles done. I could maybe make my own saddles, but that's what I thought last time and it didn't turn out how I thought it should. I might have time to make my own saddles, but I'd really rather be practicing. As for taking the class, it's both something I want to know how to do to fix my own guitars and one day make some from scratch. The guy who teaches the class demonstrated a little bit in the last one I took and he has an approach which (I feel) is a little better than some of the standard practices I've seen. I think it's like a lot of things out there. Lots of people can put up drywall. Not all of them can put it up well. That site I mentioned before has premade saddles that literally take about 45 minutes to install and jsut requires a sheet of medium grit sandpaper and another of fine grit. Unless your brand isn't listed, that is. Then you'd have to send in your old saddle for him to approximate the compensation for intonation. Even still, turnaround time is about a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members u6crash Posted September 28, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 28, 2012 Right, but I still have the fret issues on both guitars that need to be addressed. I guess I also figured I'd get the saddles done since I was going to have to take the guitars in to get fretwork done. Still haven't made a decision just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted September 29, 2012 Members Share Posted September 29, 2012 U6, first, as others have told you, the prices quoted to you are way too high. Here is a link to one of the best Martin techs in the country - click on his price list to get an idea of what he would charge. http://www.bryankimsey.com/ Next, if you want to do the work yourself, there are several of us who can talk you through it. I've done several threads on setups and repairs (as well as building from kits and scratch) - if you would like I can give you some links. None of these operations is beyound the reach of home work if you have reasonable mechanical aptitude, a few tools and take very careful measurements. Replacing a saddle with a preshaped one is the easiest, but I am a little concerned when you say yours is tilting - that can compromise the strength of the bridge. Replacing frets is not a first time lutherie project, but most of the time all you need is to crown them (which is). Also, even if you do need to replace them, usually it is only the first five or so (unless you totally play up the neck). And buzzes are frequently caused by a combination of things - humidity changes, too much or too little relief, possibly one high fret, overall low action or very light gauge strings. Before trying to "fix" one thing, make sure you have studied and measured all of them. Lastly, if you want to build a guitar, I highly recommend a StewMac or LMI or Blues Creek kit - a kit removes the hardest operations that you can really screw up (or requires special tools) but lets you have the pleasure of building your own instrument. I built several kits and am now scratch building - again, if you want to pursue this I've got several threads that I can point you to. My suggestion right now would be to take some careful measurements of your guitar - neck angle, relief, action at 12 and 1, and post them here with some pictures of the frets and that saddle. Make sure it is well balanced for humidity. You'll need feeler gauges, a little mechanics rule, some sand paper and maybe a 6" mill bastard file if we decide to work on the frets. The correct wrench for your truss rod. We should be able to make your guitar play as sweet as new by the time for your gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LightenUpMcGraw Posted September 29, 2012 Members Share Posted September 29, 2012 Looks like my suggestion wasn't even worthy of a blip on the thread, oh well would have at least been worth a look see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jimmy Chaos Posted September 29, 2012 Members Share Posted September 29, 2012 Stop being so sensible everyone! To the OP, Buy a new guitar. You'll be glad you did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members u6crash Posted September 29, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 29, 2012 LUMG, I did appreciate your input, but I think if I bought one I'd go for one of the Carvins just because I'm already very familiar with their offerings. Right now I'm trying really hard not to buy a new guitar because I'd really just like to save the money (I "need" to acquire a bass amp before the end of the year). I may order another saddle blank for the one and try to shape one soon. Problem is all my sandpaper and finishing papers are in a box...somewhere, but if I buy more it will get used eventually. I'm really thinking the one will need some frets replaced because they have been crowned and leveled once already. I've got a 6" scale and some other tools, again, in a box somewhere, but I'll try to make some measurements and such soon. Thanks for the tips Freeman! I may undertake an acoustic kit next spring, depending on the progress I make on projects already in progress (guitar related and otherwise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted September 29, 2012 Members Share Posted September 29, 2012 I wouldn't be buying two-ply toilet paper, let alone a new guitar, if I was closing on my first house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fixintogo Posted September 29, 2012 Members Share Posted September 29, 2012 Hmm... owns two guitars of the same brand, now wants a third .... sounds like ... TN Frank? Just kidding, u6. These problems didn't occur overnight, yet you haven't addressed them yet .. are they really all that urgent? Can you make it through the gig with what you've got? Borrow a friend's guitar? Seems like the time constraint might be pushing you to make a quicker decision than you should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members u6crash Posted September 30, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 30, 2012 I think the plan now is to make it through with what I've got, but I'm going to try to service them myself to some degree before then. I'll be taking measurements for a new saddle in the morning. I haven't addressed them because I've been busy with other projects and out of practice. Could be I stopped practicing because I was discouraged with the state my guitars were in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted October 1, 2012 Members Share Posted October 1, 2012 If it helps, here is an old thread about doing a setup on a friends guitars. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/archive/index.php/t-2658342.html There was a minor fret issue that simply needed leveling and crowning - if you truely need to replace frets it is a fairly major task. Note that some of the setup specs are a little on the high side since he did plan to play some slide on this, but use your own prefered numbers when you do yours. Also, I took a quick look at your bass build thread. There is no reason you can't do the basic setup and for that matter, no reason not to consider building a kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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