Members kwakatak Posted June 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 Originally Posted by knockwood I am definitely following this thread! I'm completely fascinated with the idea of doing a scratch build, although I know it is a process way out of my current league. It's something I aspire to, so your project is of huge interest to me. It is unbelievably awesome that you have access to building education from a master like Tim McKnight. That is just freakin' invaluable. No doubt critique from him can probably be somewhat cutting (this is always the case with critique from someone you respect), but that in itself is a great thing. Sadistic critics (who also happen to be experts and not just critics) will make you better. Having to re-do your braces sounds terribly frustrating, but man, what a great education you're getting. Priceless! Interesting about the neck block "tongue." The original kit that I had used that type of neck block, but I ultimately put it aside (after recovering it from the cracked sides I'd glued it to) in favor of StewMac's more traditional block. The tongued type seems like it'd take slightly more work in that the block top needs a slight angle on it (five degrees or so?), and this seems like a detail that'd be easier to screw up as the top of the block gets longer. Actually, one of the elements that gives my little brain the most trouble in putting a guitar together is all of the myriad subtle angles involved. My non-guitar friends who ask about what I'm doing are amazed at the complexity of something so visually familiar and seemingly simple. I'm amazed by it myself. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know {censored}... This has been more than just a build. I'm actually learning how to work with wood and also understand the thinking that went into the design of this particular guitar. Yeah, it was really cool to have Tim's ear this weekend and I'm grateful about how giving he was with information and insight. This weekend really opened my eyes when he gave us all a tour of his workshop as well as a seminar in voicing. It included a Chliadni test of several tops which was just freaking fascinating! He also brought out a variety of tone wood boards and gave each a rap which was really cool. Everybody here likes to debate over which is better - mahogany or rosewood, but dayum you guys have to hear how clear and long osage orange rings! As for the neck block's "tongue", the angle on my plans says 1.5 degrees. I don't know if the actual angle will be similar though. FWIW I don't have a fixed table-top belt sander so I used a handheld sander that I use to sand the boards on my back porch and ground an angle on the top face of a piece of birch plywood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 Originally Posted by gitnoob Man, I wish I had a world-class luthier who was willing to teach me his tricks. So tell us what he said about the bracing! There are no trade secrets in guitar building! (You can just take them apart to see how they work. ) Basically the braces on the OLF plans for the medium jumbo, small jumbo and OM are all a bit beefier than necessary. Most luthiers on the OLF have said as much and Tim confirmed it and gave me a couple of good reasons why. He really didn't tell me anything about how to shape the braces but he did tell me that the angle of the X brace was a little too tight for all the pin holes to fit on the bridge plate without fouling the X braces somehow. At the very least if I were to put a K&K PWM in it there wouldn't be room to properly place the transducers but (knowing how I can be) I don't think I could live with myself if I closed the box and drilled through the X braces when it came time to finally mount the bridge! I'm actually kind of glad I get to do it over again. I'd forgotten to drill an access hole through the UTB and didn't notch slots for the tone bars and finger braces in the underside of the X braces. The idea is that all the braces fit together as a complete structure, not just butting up against each other so that the whole thing vibrates as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted June 7, 2011 Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 Originally Posted by kwakatak The idea is that all the braces fit together as a complete structure, not just butting up against each other so that the whole thing vibrates as one. Somogyi emphasizes that in his book. Think of the bridge as the lever that distributes all of the energy to the top. That implies that the distribution network (the braces) needs to be tightly integrated. It also suggests that the wings of the bridge should intersect the lower legs of the X. And it suggests that the area between the bridge plate and the center of the X should be fairly stiff so that the lever is efficient. Personally, I love the theory side of things. I'm trying hard to learn to love the wood-working side as well, but so far it seems pretty tedious to me. I think the ideal guitar maker is a perfectionist with infinite patience. And a physicist. And an architect. And an artist. And it probably helps to be a good guitar player too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 Yup. You can see the influence that Somogyi had on Tim. He pretty much emphasized all those points. As for the woodworking portion of things, another point of interest was during his shop tour when he addressed the issue of climate control in the shop vs. wherever the finished guitar will end up. He touched upon it again in his discussion on finishes. Basically, wood as an organic material holds on to and gives up moisture based upon the environment that it is in. In order to work with a piece of wood, its moisture content has to be 6% or less which requires that it be stored in an environment where the wood does not take on any more moisture in order to reach an equilibrium with its environment. What that temperature/humidity is I have no clue. The impressions that I got were that:- the wood also has to be stored in such a way that air is allowed to flow all around, - the end grains should be sealed with wax if the wood is not being used right away in order to prevent moisture loss and "end checking", - that quartersawn wood is least prone to warping from moisture loss, and - that water based finishes can sometimes cause boards to warp. Like I said, I'm still digesting all of this but I need to learn about this since I now have my plates here until my friend John gets back next week from the ASIA Symposium in Stroudsburg, PA. He's teaching a class of guitar photography. In the meantime, my wood is in a cardboard box on my work bench along with the rough braces. A nearby Radio Shack hygrometer has reported a consistent 52% RH around 75 degrees F so it seems stable enough. If it wasn't I was considering on keeping my wood in an oversized bin and storing it in a closet upstairs. Otherwise I'd be tempted to work on my plates if I had all the right stuff to work with but I don't so it'll have to wait. I don't even have my templates here, though I could probably make a temporary one using my blueprints. I don't have a go-bar deck or radius dish either though so at best I could just cut out my back plate on my little band saw using my top as a template. Oh well, I'm probably gonna do a little shopping at LMI this week anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted June 7, 2011 Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 I think the 6% moisture content just means the wood is seasoned. Tim probably makes his own sets from raw lumber, so he needs to season the wood. But if you buy sets from LMI or someplace, it's probably already seasoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 7, 2011 Members Share Posted June 7, 2011 Originally Posted by gitnoob I think the 6% moisture content just means the wood is seasoned. Tim probably makes his own sets from raw lumber, so he needs to season the wood. But if you buy sets from LMI or someplace, it's probably already seasoned. Most tone wood suppliers, including LMI recommend stickering your wood in your shop for a period of time before building. When I bought my last koa I was told it had been seasoned for 6 years, but Bruce at Notable Tonewoods suggested 6 months in my shop. Here is what LMI says http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/WoodStorage.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 8, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 8, 2011 Originally Posted by Freeman Keller Most tone wood suppliers, including LMI recommend stickering your wood in your shop for a period of time before building. When I bought my last koa I was told it had been seasoned for 6 years, but Bruce at Notable Tonewoods suggested 6 months in my shop. Here is what LMI says http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/WoodStorage.asp Good to know, Freeman. I've been wondering how I should best store my stuff while my friend is away. Now I have a better idea. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rickoshea Posted June 9, 2011 Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Originally Posted by kwakatak Oh well, I'm probably gonna do a little shopping at LMI this week anyway. now there's a very very dangerous statement Neil. LMI have devastated my bank account. I go onto that site and I'm like a kid in a sweet shop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Hehe - to be fair I've had to edit my shopping cart a few times. At this point there's just a mahogany heel block, a rosewood bridge plate and a rosewood head plate. I was toying with the idea of putting an Adirondack top and new rosewood bridge on my Tak but it might be cheaper just to get a whole new guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 9, 2011 Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Originally Posted by kwakatak Hehe - to be fair I've had to edit my shopping cart a few times. At this point there's just a mahogany heel block, a rosewood bridge plate and a rosewood head plate. I was toying with the idea of putting an Adirondack top and new rosewood bridge on my Tak but it might be cheaper just to get a whole new guitar! Do it! Big problem for me with LMI is small orders where the shipping is as much as the product. I ran out of KTM half way thru a finishing job, didn't want to screw up the schedule so I had them ship 8 oz of lacquer overnight. It was, like 15 bucks for the lacquer and 15 more for the FedEx. Watch out for their kit wizard also. Its a really cool way to take a $300 pile of parts to a grand. Don't ask how I know (and don't tell my wife). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rickoshea Posted June 9, 2011 Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 hell, I have to pay crazy import tax into France. This is why I tell myself (but indeed not my wife FK) that it makes sense just to get together a decent order and have a "what the hell - maybe the customs will miss it" attitude My cart presently has a fingerboard slotting jiggy thing and a mortise and tenon cutting jig in it as I haven't a clue how I'd do that joint. There are many many tools I could (and may just) add Great company though ... it takes over a week for a luthier supply place in England to get some wood to me. It takes LMI 2 days from CA. I like this sort of service Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted June 9, 2011 Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 What do you guys do for bracing stock? My local guy recommended buying cello wedges for the quality of the wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 9, 2011 Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Originally Posted by gitnoob What do you guys do for bracing stock? My local guy recommended buying cello wedges for the quality of the wood. Red spruce when I've got some, sitka the rest of the time. I've used both spruce and mahogany for back braces - there I think you are mostly looking for enough wood to hold the dome. Pick the billets for straight grain or buy from someone who will do that for you (LMI, Notable will). I rip them on a band saw, but splitting is obviously better. Adi has a slightly higher strength than the others spruces according to those that know, but at my level of build that doesn't matter a hoot. It is interesting that years and years ago I build power racing boats. I would go to a local wood shop and buy the straightest spruce I could find for the ribs and stringers - I would pick thru the whole wood bin to find the best boards. A guy who was restoring a WWI biplane would come to my shop and pick thru my stash to find the best pieces for the spars on his plane. I guess it had something to do with how far you would fall in the event of a failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Originally Posted by Freeman Keller Do it! Big problem for me with LMI is small orders where the shipping is as much as the product. I ran out of KTM half way thru a finishing job, didn't want to screw up the schedule so I had them ship 8 oz of lacquer overnight. It was, like 15 bucks for the lacquer and 15 more for the FedEx. Watch out for their kit wizard also. Its a really cool way to take a $300 pile of parts to a grand. Don't ask how I know (and don't tell my wife). Certainly. I like to keep orders below the Level of Spousal Arousal on the credit card bill which sounds like a good thing but it's really NOT! Currently I'm looking at $30 including shipping. My friend has a lot of stuff already, like pre-slotted fingerboards and bridge blanks which are close to the last things I'm planning on doing anyway. BTW, I was at the local Rockler a few months ago and saw that they carry guitar tonewoods. I dropped by there today to see if they had any Adirondack spruce tops and sure enough they did - but it was $150!!! OT: the reason for the sudden interest in Adirondack is because of a McKnight dreadnought he had there. It had an Adirondack top with quilted mahogany back & sides and man was it loud yet clear. It was balanced tonally like the HD-35 that I've been lusting for for several years now, but this McKnight was louder with a wider range (deeper bass, crisper trebles) and not muddy at all. I may finally be off the sitka/rosewood kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Originally Posted by gitnoob What do you guys do for bracing stock? My local guy recommended buying cello wedges for the quality of the wood. My friend John had some billets that were actually rejected aircraft wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted June 9, 2011 Members Share Posted June 9, 2011 Kwak, adi is really expensive and not very pretty. Don't know if it is worth it, but thats what I used on the Stella clone to keep the historical perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 10, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 10, 2011 Originally Posted by Freeman Keller Kwak, adi is really expensive and not very pretty. Don't know if it is worth it, but thats what I used on the Stella clone to keep the historical perspective. I'm not worried about looks so much as tone. Adi is supposed to have a wider tonal range than sitka and from what I heard last Saturday in the McKnight's loft showroom, hoo boy! Even I think I'd be nuts to install it on a guitar with laminated EIR back & sides though. I'll have to post a pic of the hatchet job I did on my Tak but I can't bear to even think about taking another look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 11, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 11, 2011 I've been keeping my plates and braces in my basement this past week and the RH shot up from around 50% to nearly 60% so I figured I should do something. I don't know if I did the right thing so I could use some input if anyone has any. I put the boards inside a large plastic bin and leaned them against the sides. I placed a desktop lamp with a 60 watt bulb over the opening and put a guitar case hygrometer in the center of the bin but not directly under the lamp. Then I thought of something that might be a bit out there but I figured if it works for drying out iPods then maybe putting a bowl of dry white rice might help drop the RH too. It's hardly scientific since nothing's been calibrated but I also have an indoor/outdoor hygrometer/thermometer on the pegboard on the wall and it reads 55% at about 72 degrees. Inside the bin the temp is 79 and the RH is 49%. The question is, am I doing the right thing? Usually these boards are at my friend's workshop is in the 70s with the RH around 50%. It's probably best to just get the stuff back over there but I won't be able to get back over there until next early week at the earliest. He's been really busy with work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members knockwood Posted June 11, 2011 Members Share Posted June 11, 2011 Originally Posted by kwakatak I've been keeping my plates and braces in my basement this past week and the RH shot up from around 50% to nearly 60% so I figured I should do something. I don't know if I did the right thing so I could use some input if anyone has any. I put the boards inside a large plastic bin and leaned them against the sides. I placed a desktop lamp with a 60 watt bulb over the opening and put a guitar case hygrometer in the center of the bin but not directly under the lamp. Then I thought of something that might be a bit out there but I figured if it works for drying out iPods then maybe putting a bowl of dry white rice might help drop the RH too. It's hardly scientific since nothing's been calibrated but I also have an indoor/outdoor hygrometer/thermometer on the pegboard on the wall and it reads 55% at about 72 degrees. Inside the bin the temp is 79 and the RH is 49%. The question is, am I doing the right thing? Usually these boards are at my friend's workshop is in the 70s with the RH around 50%. It's probably best to just get the stuff back over there but I won't be able to get back over there until next early week at the earliest. He's been really busy with work. I could be wrong, but I don't think you're in much danger at the 60% rh mark. I worry much more about low humidity. What concerns me a little is the plastic bin part. Even in a closed bin, the exterior atmospheric conditions will eventually get through (as they will with a guitar case), and plastic + humidity could spell bad news - in the form of mould, I'm thinking. During my kit build, the temp and humidity have been all over the friggin' place - and lately quite humid. I also have a lot of plates shelved in my man cave. I do the best I can with a dehumidifier, but I know ultimately I will have to GTFO of NYC if I want to do this stuff in a supportive climate. Rather than rice, if you're talking a small enough quantity of wood to keep it contained in an enclosed space of some kind, do you have any desiccant packs? I just ordered a {censored}load of the things - I keep 'em packed with my firearms, my ammo, my camera. I know they show up in git cases from time to time. Because they are used so often in shipping, I'm wondering if it might be possible to pick up bundles of 'em for free from certain businesses that would otherwise probably just throw them out (the same way I've often bummed guitar boxes from GC and other music stores). Rockler and GC are two businesses that may be possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted June 11, 2011 Members Share Posted June 11, 2011 I think the main concern is to keep all of your wood in the same place and let it acclimate to your environment. That prevents it from shrinking or expanding while you build it and play it at your home.The second concern is how the guitar will react once it moves out of your environment. That's why most shops build at humidity levels similar to average conditions in the country.There is no "right" RH level. You just want stability, and you don't want your guitar to fly apart (or crack) when it's in a different environment. That's one of the reasons an arch is built into the top and back -- to absorb some shrinkage due to drier conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LiFeStArTs@40 Posted June 11, 2011 Members Share Posted June 11, 2011 I've got tons of maple and cherry scraps in the shop that used to be my wood shop if anyone is interested. Also, I've got cherry slabs that I bought at a wood working show years ago. They've been kiln dried and have sat at the shop air drying for a lot of years. They're about 3" thick and have a lot of figure. With the right band saw they could easily be resawed into nice sides and backs. I originally bought them to have stock thick enough to make solid table legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 I've been having a wonderful week babysitting my top and back plates and playing with the bracing. Tim McKnight gave me some pointers and I've been trying to alter the pattern. After he chiseled off my first attempt at X-braces and UTB he ran it through his huge thickness sander and took all my pencil marks with it. He was nice enough to provide me with replacements though, which I've been using as reference. I have no clue where to put the finger braces or the tone bars now though. I'm also tempted to go with a symmetrical bracing pattern because this is going to be a fingerstyle guitar and I love the way my Larrivee is voiced. I can't glue anything down because I have no go-bar deck or radius dish. I'm also a little worried about my storage method but I've been able to keep the RH around my wood at a steady 50% just like in John's shop. I've been keeping them on my workbench with a desk lamp shining on them 24/7. The temp has been no higher than 77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gitnoob Posted June 16, 2011 Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 Originally Posted by kwakatak Seriously though, what's the requirements for rigidity of the soundhole grafts? Two points: 1) the area around the sound hole is the weakest part of the guitar (not sure who the genius was who decided to put a hole in the middle of the sound board). 2) the stiffness of a brace increases with the cube of the height In other words, a lot of modern sound hole reinforcement is next to worthless, and you'll see the top warp with age. Take a look at how Martin fixed the problem with the A-frame -- taller braces on both sides of the sound hole that tuck under the UTB. Smart move IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2011 I have to count my back braces next time I'm over at my friend's shop but I have an extra 1/4" thick brace that I could probably cut in two. I can't do an A-Frame though due to the neck block design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted June 20, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 20, 2011 Here are some pics I took on my new Droid phone a couple of days ago. I just got to uploading them to photobucket. I'm still playing with placement of the braces; nothing's been glued down or even radiused. Note the more open angle of the X brace compared to the plans. I'm told this should improve bass response. BTW, yes the plans are to scale. I have an extra 1/2" of cedar around the true outline to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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