Looks like I'm gonna try and build a guitar...

[guitarist21]

 

Originally Posted by kwakatak

BTW, which do you think would go better visually/functionally with a guitar with mahogany back & sides and a western red cedar top? Ebony or rosewood bridge/fretboard/headstock overlay?

 

Oooooh I vote rosewood.

[rickoshea]

 

Originally Posted by kwakatak

I'm not concerned about getting a router right now, though I've seen a Ryobi at Home Depot for $60 which is about half what the Bosch routers I've seen go for. I'm more concerned about getting a table to work on, preferably one that can house a router so that I can mount a sanding bobben or a pattern-tracing bit on. It'd also be nice to work with that bandsaw while standing and not sitting on the floor of my garage.

Which reminds me. I could really use a shop vac.

In the meantime I need materials and some more design ideas. I still haven't decided on a rosette or a headstock inlay. I still don't want to use abalone unless it is very minimal.

BTW, which do you think would go better visually/functionally with a guitar with mahogany back & sides and a western red cedar top? Ebony or rosewood bridge/fretboard/headstock overlay?

 

I like rosewood myself as well. My next will have Walnut back and sides and cedar top and I'm going to be using cocobolo rosewood for the binding with rosewood bridge/fretboard etc. I just think its that bit "richer" looking with a bit more character than ebony.

I mounted my bandsaw on an old bedside cupboard then put lockable castors on the bottom so it was mobile - its a cheap way to get it at a level where you could use it standing

Rosettes and things ... here are a couple of links. Both these guys do lovely stuff and are cheap :

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Taisamlu-Mu...?_nkw=rosettes

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/bezdez_INLA...34Q2ec0Q2em322

There are a massive variety of inlay materials. Brass is nice to cut and use, as is using wood. Reconstituted stone I think looks interesting and I'm going to be using some of that next :

http://www.smallwonder-music.co.uk/s...t.asp?P_ID=437

I found it easiest using wood as its nice and simple to sand flush after placing into the cavity

I could use a shop vac as well, the sawdust has to be seen to be believed after working lol. The watch money has gone so I'll have to stick with my wee brush and pan for now

[kwakatak]

 

Originally Posted by guitarist21

Oooooh I vote rosewood.

 

Yeah, I'm thinking rosewood too, Ellen. Ideally I'd like one with a really broad spectrum of colors - or at least a high contrast grain with maybe a reddish/purplish tint to it. Cocobolo would look really cool because of the reddish tint but I've heard horror stories about working with it. I've read that Brazilian rosewood is the "ideal" choice with mahogany back & sides but obviously I'm not gonna be able to swing that with my wife the accountant.

As for the inlay idea, you may be on to something with the reconstituted rock Rick. Those EIR rosettes with the abalone trim do look interesting as well.

[rickoshea]

 

Originally Posted by kwakatak

Yeah, I'm thinking rosewood too, Ellen. Ideally I'd like one with a really broad spectrum of colors - or at least a high contrast grain with maybe a reddish/purplish tint to it. Cocobolo would look really cool because of the reddish tint but I've heard horror stories about working with it. I've read that Brazilian rosewood is the "ideal" choice with mahogany back & sides but obviously I'm not gonna be able to swing that with my wife the accountant.

As for the inlay idea, you may be on to something with the reconstituted rock Rick. Those EIR rosettes with the abalone trim do look interesting as well.

 

I think its supposed to be "oily" and hence may give problems with glueing. Its dead easy to bend (I was going to do the binding on mine until I changed to maple and bent the cocobolo) and I believe if you give it a bit of a rub down with alcohol prior to glueing you should have no problems

That recon rock is damned cool eh?

[kwakatak]

Actually, I'ver heard that cocobolo can spur some serious reactions to those who are allergic to it. Tim McKnight has to be careful with it because his wife Mary is highly allergic to the dust and he had to upgrade his shop's ventilation system. Still, it's a very pretty wood.

I've seen examples of EI rosewood which had red and purple streaks in it, not just the typical brown. I'm assuming that it had to do with the finish aging though. For example, I'd love to get my hands on some rosewood with the same type of grain as on my Takamine:

[rickoshea]

aye thats pretty stuff. When you're slightly colourblind like me it makes life easier beacause I dont see too much red or purple in any rosewood lol. I didnt know about reactions to cocobolo ... thankfully it would appear I'm ok there.

I got my Walnut back and side set from :

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/THE-ZOOTMANS-TONEWOODS?_rdc=1

and the Ovangkol from :

http://stores.ebay.co.uk/AHix-Tonewo...upplies?_rdc=1

both sets are beautiful and come superbly packaged, you may be able to find some EI Rosewood there

[kwakatak]

OK, I'm gonna try my hand at cutting out a new outside mold with my little 9" bandsaw. I went to Home Depot and have four 10" x 24" x 3/4" birch plywood boards and a pack of 1" x 2" wooden yard spikes which I'm going to cut into 3" lengths. I told my wife I needed to spend $45 on a whole sheet of plywood and she got that funny look in her eye that means she does not approve so I cheaped out and spent $18 on a quarter sheet instead.

I've been going to Home Depot a lot lately. I was just there yesterday and picked up some 3/8" clear acrylic to fashion plastic templates from. I cut them out on my little band saw and sanded them pretty close to the outlines on the plans; I have a little more sanding to do.

As for the tinkering I've been doing, I'm starting to get a more practice eye and hand with regards to drafting freehand, cutting more accurately with the bandsaw and even sanding things more quickly and cleanly. Pretty soon my wife is going to demand I put in hard wood floors though.

As for the actual guitar work, I'm hoping to get a little more thickness sanding done with my friend's drum sander. I read that I may be doing something wrong and want to see if I can improve my progress. According to Kinkead, it's best to feed the boards in at an angle; I've been putting them though straight so the belt has been trying to sand along the length of the grain.

BTW, it should be obvious that I'm doing way more thinking and planning that actual hands-on stuff at this point but I just want to avoid some mistakes that could best be avoided. I'm still dreaming up the design of the guitar as well. Here's the specs I'm going by so far:

MODEL: Official Luthier's Forum Medium Jumbo 14 fret, full body (non cutaway)

CONSTRUCTION: Mahogany Blocks/Dovetail Neck Joint

BODY SIZE: MJ-14 Fret

TOP: Solid Western Red Cedar

ROSETTE: TBD (to be determined)

TOP BRACING PATTERN: Looks like a standard X bracing with 2 tone bars

TOP BRACES: Solid Sitka Spruce 5/16''

BACK MATERIAL: Solid South American Mahogany

SIDE MATERIAL: Solid South American Mahogany

ENDPIECE: East Indian Rosewood

BINDING: East Indian Rosewood

TOP INLAY STYLE: Black/White/Black

SIDE INLAY: Black/White/Black

BACK INLAY: Black/White/Black

NECK MATERIAL: single piece South American Mahogany

NECK SHAPE: Modified V?

NECK JOINT TYPE: Dovetail

NUT MATERIAL: Bone

HEADSTOCK: Solid/Diamond/SquareTaper

HEADPLATE: Solid East Indian Rosewood

HEELCAP: East Indian Rosewood

FINGERBOARD MATERIAL: East Indian Rosewood

SCALE LENGTH: 25.4''

# OF FRETS CLEAR: 14

# OF FRETS TOTAL: 20

FINGERBOARD WIDTH AT NUT: 1-3/4''

FINGERBOARD WIDTH AT 12TH FRET: 2-1/4''?

FINGERBOARD POSITION INLAYS: TBD

FINGERBOARD BINDING: East Indian Rosewood

FINISH BACK & SIDES: Polished French Gloss

FINISH TOP: Polished French Gloss

FINISH NECK: Satin

BRIDGE MATERIAL: East Indian Rosewood

BRIDGE STYLE: Belly, looks to be inspired by Taylor Guitars' design

SADDLE MATERIAL: Bone

TUNING MACHINES: Gold Gotoh 510 with Large Buttons

BRIDGE & END PINS: Bone (I'm gonna try Mary McKnight's tea soaking method)

PICKGUARD: TBD (most likely clear)

CASE: TBD (body is larger than a standard dreadnought size case will fit)

BTW, my friend Yamaha Junkie was nice enough to broker a donation for a ready-to-mount neck. Once again I am humbled and indebted to him and the luthier community for such a gesture. I have in my possession a Martin-style neck with dovetail that is 1.75" at the nut with a pronounced V-shape and a volute. It looks like it was in the process of being readied for installation (the truss rod is already installed) but it failed some QC check. There was some glue slop that ran around the volute to the back of the headstock. I also detect some slight fractures along the length of the headstock. I gave it a little light sanding with a medium grit foam sanding pad and got most of the slop cleaned up and smoothed out the length of the neck.

I don't know if it fits with the style I'm going for - that of a more modern fingerstyle instrument along the lines of the R. Taylor Style 1 - but at the very least I will try to make use of it, if not on this build then the next. Sometimes I think it might have been better if I'd just tried to replicate a rosewood Martin dread and I've admired the vintage styling of the D-21 Special...

Aw crap, now I've got an idea for a SECOND build (based on either a Martin HD-28V or D-21 Special) with a nebulous idea for a third build in this same MJ model in Wenge/Engelmann.

[kwakatak]

Just another update. I bought some more plywood and am gonna give it another go at the mold. Burch plywood costs about twice as much as MDF so I'm going to do a semi-solid mold where the only cutting I really have to do is the top and bottom of either side - or 4 boards. The rest will be 3" spacers that will be screwed into the plywood around the edge of the outline. There's still a lot of sanding to do but much less work on the band saw. I could really use a sanding spindle though.

I also think I might be able to salvage my bending forms. My final plastic template turned out pretty good when compared to the plans and when I lay it against the outline of the cut molds there's only a 3mm variation on either side of the outline. I also read somewhere that it's OK for the bending forms to be slightly smaller than the outline of the top to take into account the width of the side material; I'm shooting for 3mm for my mahogany back and sides and if this theory has any merit then I have plenty to work with on my MDF forms.

BTW, sorry no pics but I can't find my camera.

[rickoshea]

it all sounds great - are you going to be carving the neck yourself?, I'll be interested to see how you get on as thats what I have planned for my next. Those Taylor-like bridges are available from one of the e-bay sellers I linked to. I just got 3 of them and they're excellent .

I didnt have any probs with the MDF mould making but your ply will be more stable and a lot stronger. Its so damned expensive in France I cant use it lol

[kwakatak]

Well, I could potentially use the neck I have but I don't think it'd look or feel right for what I envision for this guitar. What I have is a Martin neck that was probably going to go on something like a Martin OM-28V but my inspiration for this build is actually a Taylor GS5.

If I were to attempt to build my own neck - and bear in mind that that step is a LONG way off - I don't think I'd do the stacked heel method. I've seen some beautiful 5-piece custom necks out there like this that I'd love to be able to try on my own. They're reputedly much stronger than single piece necks and I've seen several different types of wood sandwiched together.

As for the bridge, that's another step that's a long way off. I hope I have the strength left to attempt it on my own. I have to get through the rosette first though. Heck - I have to get the templates right!

[10ae1203]

I am watching this and am interested. Thanks for telling the story.

I have been a carpenter for a long time, and the tool thing never gets any cheaper. I don't want to rain on your parade, particularly if you've already bought one, but sometimes cheaper routers can be more frustrating than the cost savings is worth.

Pay particular attention to comparing how the base adjusts, how it feels, whether it's tight, sloppy, etc. Buy one good router once rather than a cheap one and then the good one after the sloppy, not very tight base (or collet, even worse) has ruined your particular matched project piece.

You've learned one very important lesson with woodworking, in that you know now to cut close to the line and fine-tune by hand. Be glad you learned this with rough materials, and not something else.

My pop always used to joke that "I've cut this darn thing 3 times, and it's still too short."

Have fun, work carefully. Measure once, cut twice, or something like that.

[kwakatak]

LOL, thanks! This certainly IS a learning experience and it's giving me a much-needed ego boost going through the whole process.

OK, maybe it's no big deal that my template was off. I just pulled out the original plans and traced the proper outline on the template. Then I went and laid the template on all my cut boards and traced in the correct outline, and filling in the difference so that I had more than just a tiny line to guide by. I still had plenty of sanding to so there was still nothing lost except the little bit of time it took me to sand my template down - which was about an hour, tops.

Once that was done I tried to think about how I was going to sand the master board down. Yamaha Junkie supplied me with a makeshift spindle but using a hand drill brings in a measure of uncertainty so I tried to come up with my own fixed upright spindle on the fly:

It didn't seem stable enough though so I just made sure to clamp the board in the vise and handle the drill freehand, eyeing the outlines on BOTH sides of the board - and yes, I made sure they were lined up. Every so often I'd stop and overlay the board against the plans to see if I was getting close without going over:

I spent a couple of hours sanding with heavy grit sandpaper on the spindle and 100 grit wrapped around a piece of scrap wood. If I felt like the 100 grit wasn't getting the flat spots out I'd break out the drill again and give it a couple of passes "feeling" for the curve. Once it hit 11 PM though I decided to call it a night with the actual work. Here's how close I got:

They're actually much more accurate than they look here but that's because I wasn't pushing down on the board and the plans in order to take the pictures. The paper likes to spring back and the plywood is light in weight.

The next step is to get the other 3 boards to match this master board. Normally this would call for a router and a pattern tracing bit but I don't think I can get access to those so I might have to give my homemade spindle a shot!

BTW, after that I move on to finally cleaning up the bending forms. Here's a taste of how they look now against my new and improved acrylic template:

Yeah, they're off and I DO need to sand them a bit - but I'm told that they don't have to be perfect. I've heard that they can be about 3mm smaller than the outline of the mold to account for the thickness of the bent sides and that the wood will still spring back against the mold after it's been freshly bent.

[rickoshea]

nice job Neal . Its amazing how steep the learning curve is innit? lol. Improvisation in clamping etc is also a great thing, plus the feeling of satisfaction from even doing the simplest thing is immense eh?

If you want your other sections of mould to exactly match the one you've just finished I would seriously consider waiting till you can get your hands on a router with a template cutting bit. I agree with what was said about getting a good one if you can - believe me, if I had cocked up the binding prep suicide would have been a definite option

I have a spare drill press here which I would happily send you but methinks the postage to the USA may be "somewhat prohibitive" lol

[10ae1203]

You can make good quick jigs to hold tools that will far outlive the project at hand.

Good job figuring out a method with what you had.

[kwakatak]

I'd heard about the special bit but I need to keep my TAS under control. I'm going to try and do them one on one against the master and check my work against the plans just as I'd done before.

BTW, this may be a problem or it may not but 2 of my 4 boards partly de-laminated after I made the rough cut with the band saw. I think I need to squeeze some glue in there and clamp each board in the vise (I don't have any clamps yet) until the glue dries.

[kwakatak]

Aarrrrrgh! We can't seem to figure out how to keep the belt tight on the drum sander. The sandpaper belt overlapped and gauged out my cedar a bit. There's still a ways too go so it's still salvageable but it's taking soooo long and I can't make it out there more than once a week - and even then it's always late at night.

So instead of working on the actual tone woods for most of the night I ended up cutting some spacers for my semi-solid acoustic mold and gluing up the delaminating pieces. Like everything else I've done thus far though the spacers are not perfect either.

I may need to take a break...

[poppytater]

 

Originally Posted by kwakatak

I may need to take a break...

 

Probably a good idea, working tired and frustrated can lead to cascading mistakes or worse.

[Misha]

You're so brave, Kwak!! I could never build a guitar!

[kwakatak]

OK, I think my problem is that I don't have enough tools. I could really use a portable workbench to put my bandsaw on so that I can do the messy/loud stuff in the garage. I also hear that a used drill press is a GREAT thing to have. There are a few in the local Craig's List that are all under $50.

Freeman, if you're listening I now know the full implications of TAS. Before I was worried about sneaking a $2000 guitar and now I'm sweating about sneaking in a $50 bench top drill press.

FWIW my wife's got a new hobby now too. She's getting into making her own beaded jewelry. It's just cheap plastic stuff she got from the local craft store but it's pretty cool to see her do something like that again.

[Samilyn]

 

Originally Posted by kwakatak

OK, I think my problem is that I don't have enough tools. I could really use a portable workbench to put my bandsaw on so that I can do the messy/loud stuff in the garage. I also hear that a used drill press is a GREAT thing to have. There are a few in the local Craig's List that are all under $50.

Freeman, if you're listening I now know the full implications of TAS. Before I was worried about sneaking a $2000 guitar and now I'm sweating about sneaking in a $50 bench top drill press.

FWIW my wife's got a new hobby now too. She's getting into making her own beaded jewelry. It's just cheap plastic stuff she got from the local craft store but it's pretty cool to see her do something like that again.

 

Wayyy cool for both of you, Neil

And as Misha said, you are sooo brave. I'd never attempt a build of my own, though I've spent many years crafting various wood projects. I know what ya mean about TAS!

[Freeman Keller]

 

Originally Posted by kwakatak

OK, I think my problem is that I don't have enough tools. I could really use a portable workbench to put my bandsaw on so that I can do the messy/loud stuff in the garage. I also hear that a used drill press is a GREAT thing to have. There are a few in the local Craig's List that are all under $50.

Freeman, if you're listening I now know the full implications of TAS. Before I was worried about sneaking a $2000 guitar and now I'm sweating about sneaking in a $50 bench top drill press.

FWIW my wife's got a new hobby now too. She's getting into making her own beaded jewelry. It's just cheap plastic stuff she got from the local craft store but it's pretty cool to see her do something like that again.

 

Neil, I am listening (and enjoying watching your journey). Yes, TAS is certainly a cure for GAS (well, maybe not, you are already thinking about your 2nd and 3rd build, I'm thinking about my, what it it now, 8th and 9th?).

When I built the first one I had a small wood tool shop - good planes and chisels and such - and have a band saw, table saw (which I hardly use) and drill press where I work (along with cnc mills and other neat toys). With each build I would add one major power tool to the quiver - a laminate router, belt sander, better Dremel, air compressor, bench buffer - and do one new task in the build (the first were mostly kits, the last few are scratch).

A scratch built neck is probably the most daunting (and rewarding) - I did the stacked heel and scarfed headstock. Routing a 12 string slothead is kind of interesting.... However necks seem like the ideal place for a cnc and some of the most beautiful necks are coming from Hanalei Moon - i used one on my tricone and it is spectacular

http://www.hanalei-moon.com/

Speaking of necks, I happen to have a short scale dovetail Martin neck with t/r, fretted fretboard and even has the torch inlay that I would part with very cheaply, but it is much more fun to do all those steps yourself.

The order that I would personally buy power tools are cordless drill motor, laminate router, band saw if possible or good saber saw (mostly for cutting out molds), drill press (very handy for pressing frets). When I want something thicknessed sanded I just run down to the local cabinet shop - costs me a buck or two to run the plates thru (yes, go at an angle to the grain). When you do decide to make a neck a band saw is necessary and there are some tricks using a table saw to do the heel. I buffed the first few with foam pads and my cordless drill, a real buffing wheel is really nice (and can burn thru the edge in nothing flat). I'm sold on spraying with a home compressor, but there are many other ways to finish.

You've obviously figured out that you'll invest $500 or so in lutherie tools, but you use them all the time so get good ones. And I buy MDF by the sheets - always making some sort of jig or fixture.

OK, I'll go back to my corner and continue watching. Have fun

[guitarist21]

 

Originally Posted by kwakatak

FWIW my wife's got a new hobby now too. She's getting into making her own beaded jewelry. It's just cheap plastic stuff she got from the local craft store but it's pretty cool to see her do something like that again.

 

My aunt does this, and she's really good at it. She's making a good bit of money selling the jewelry at local art shops and stuff. I think it's totally cool. But I visited her a couple weeks ago and it seems that beadwork leads to making your own beads which leads to metalwork which leads to incurable TAS! It seems various Acquisition Syndromes affect more than just us guitarists.

[10ae1203]

Regarding a portable workbench, doing what I do (carpenter), I have learned to make do with what's on site, and sawhorses are always one of those things.

A pair of good sturdy sawhorses can make as small or large a table as one needs, and careful and creative shim work can make it level, straight, and true, at whatever height you need.

Easy to make, cheap (2 - 2x4x8' and 2 - 2x4x10' and 4 smallish scraps of 1x or plywood), and they are useful beyond a single range of projects.

Drill press is nice. I miss mine.

[kwakatak]

 

Originally Posted by Freeman Keller

Neil, I am listening (and enjoying watching your journey). Yes, TAS is certainly a cure for GAS (well, maybe not, you are already thinking about your 2nd and 3rd build, I'm thinking about my, what it it now, 8th and 9th?).

When I built the first one I had a small wood tool shop - good planes and chisels and such - and have a band saw, table saw (which I hardly use) and drill press where I work (along with cnc mills and other neat toys). With each build I would add one major power tool to the quiver - a laminate router, belt sander, better Dremel, air compressor, bench buffer - and do one new task in the build (the first were mostly kits, the last few are scratch).

A scratch built neck is probably the most daunting (and rewarding) - I did the stacked heel and scarfed headstock. Routing a 12 string slothead is kind of interesting.... However necks seem like the ideal place for a cnc and some of the most beautiful necks are coming from Hanalei Moon - i used one on my tricone and it is spectacular

http://www.hanalei-moon.com/

Speaking of necks, I happen to have a short scale dovetail Martin neck with t/r, fretted fretboard and even has the torch inlay that I would part with very cheaply, but it is much more fun to do all those steps yourself.

The order that I would personally buy power tools are cordless drill motor, laminate router, band saw if possible or good saber saw (mostly for cutting out molds), drill press (very handy for pressing frets). When I want something thicknessed sanded I just run down to the local cabinet shop - costs me a buck or two to run the plates thru (yes, go at an angle to the grain). When you do decide to make a neck a band saw is necessary and there are some tricks using a table saw to do the heel. I buffed the first few with foam pads and my cordless drill, a real buffing wheel is really nice (and can burn thru the edge in nothing flat). I'm sold on spraying with a home compressor, but there are many other ways to finish.

You've obviously figured out that you'll invest $500 or so in lutherie tools, but you use them all the time so get good ones. And I buy MDF by the sheets - always making some sort of jig or fixture.

OK, I'll go back to my corner and continue watching. Have fun

 

Thanks, Freeman. The way I figure, I need the drill press and they've come up on the local craig's list for $20-$35 for the small bench top models. I could've score Yamaha Junkie's but he sold it shortly before he gave me his 9" tabletop band saw - which has been very useful for cutting molds and templates. A router is next though a fixed sanding spindle would be nice too. Then you have the usual multipurpose tools such as a standard table saw and a belt/disc sander combo.

...oh and course clamps. LOTS of 'em. I hear cam clamps are easy to make but I'm knocking myself out over the molds and bending forms. Maybe I should try making my spreaders first since my master form is nearly complete?

Meanwhile I'd like to score a bag of clothespins and a rolling pin as a sort of hand spindle for sanding.

I'm in the doghouse this month with the wife and kids though so it may not be a good time to push for TAS. As for my "workshop" I'm competing with teh kitteh for space.

BTW, it's not QUITE as bad as being in the doghouse but the other night I paid the price when kitteh made a deposit in the box.

As for the neck, as you can see I've got something to fall back on. It's a dovetail with modified V profile though - much better for a slope dread or TROM IMO. Like I said, I'd love to do some sort of mahogany/rosewood or mahogany/walnut stratified deal, not the stacked heel type though. I've been watching Yamaha Junkie busting his back on a 3-piece rock maple neck though which answers the question why you don't see many!

Now regarding the molds I was on the phone with YJ and he reminded me that he has some sort of template-tracing contraption with a tile cutter on it. I also bought some cleaner pine 1"x2"x6' strips to make some prettier spacers. The first set was pretty raunchy-looking and didn't cut very clean on the table saw. We'll see if we can get together reasonably early and maybe I can finally get the molds done. I still need to buy some hardware first though; I'm thinking wood screws instead of nails to keep everything tight. Then I'll move on to the spreaders.

[kwakatak]

TAS goes on - I bought myself a gents saw last night. I'm trying to cut spacers for my semi-solid mold by hand but I see now that I need to purchase a miter box or fashion one on my own out of an old drawer. Once I get the mold and forms done in my home workshop I'm moving on to cutting out the bracing and it'll come in handy. If anyone knows where I can score a deal on a used jack or block plane? I'm not interested in using ebay/Paypal though.