Looks like I'm gonna try and build a guitar...

[10ae1203]

where are you?

[10ae1203]

I ask because I have my old hand miter box from the old days that you could have.

[kwakatak]

I appreciate it but I picked up a cheap $5 one today that will suit my purposes.

Today I went over to Yamaha Junkie's place and finished up thickness sanding my top down to 3.5mm. He finally figured out how to properly install the sandpaper roll - putting the 80 grit roll on only took him a couple of minutes compared to my previous visit where we were both getting frustrated. Anyway I'd been using 120 before and it was slow going. Things went much quicker for me once the 80 grit was installed and all the marring to my top went away quickly once I figured out that I'd been feeding the board in improperly. The trick is to keep the board flat on the conveyor belt (he has a Jett 10/20 drum sander) going in and coming out. I'd been holding the edges of the board but switched to using my fingertips to hold it flat in front of the drum when feeding the boards in and again on the other side of the drum as it came back out.

I figure I've got another day or two before I'm done sanding things and assembling the mold. Then I'll move on to tracing the outline for the sides so that I can move on to bending them.

[rickoshea]

seems to be a never ending sanding and jig making exercise doesnt it?

Once they're all done (I enjoyed making them and dodging flying router bits lol) the fun really begins. I like the shop btw Neal .... just watch how it will "magically" start filling up with tools

[guit30]

Good luck Kwatak, hope it turns out good!!!

Jim

[kwakatak]

 

Originally Posted by rickoshea

seems to be a never ending sanding and jig making exercise doesnt it?

Once they're all done (I enjoyed making them and dodging flying router bits lol) the fun really begins. I like the shop btw Neal .... just watch how it will "magically" start filling up with tools

 

Thanks, Rick. I'm hoping that I can focus more on building my guitar now that I've got something accomplished. I was starting to get frustrated by not making great progress with the thickness sanding and getting over to my friend's shop often enough so I was taking it out by trying to button down the mold and bending shapes. It's been an issue of time-management (which is affected by my wife's hectic schedule these past couple of weeks and my 6yo autistic sons' sleep patterns) and I hope it starts to work itself out.

In the meantime, I've really got to get the rosette, back strip and endpin wedge designs locked in. Next time I want to do the EIR back strip bound with prelaminated BWB purfling strips.

[10ae1203]

 

Originally Posted by kwakatak

I appreciate it but I picked up a cheap $5 one today that will suit my purposes.

...

 

OK. regarding the planes, there's an antique shop with good tools (with reasonable prices, too) on PA 272 in Little Britain, PA.

[kwakatak]

I've been told I'm getting overly anal on this so I need to step it up. I figure I've spent enough of my wife's money on plywood to move ahead.

Final sanding of the contour so that all 4 match:

Note the miter box that I used to cut a TON of little blocks of wood for the depth of the mold

Originally the mold was to use 3" spacers but it looked too deep (4.5") since the guitar itself is only going to be 4.5" deep and I'll need the edges free so that I can route out the edges. So I've been playing with the arrangement of the spacers to either 3/4" (mold would be 2.25" deep)

...or 2" spacers (mold would be 3.5" deep)

This way would have more "meat" to drill through for the mounting bolts so that I can separate the mold when the "box" is closed:

Either way would involve just a little more sanding...

[kwakatak]

Today I was admiring my finished mold and waist spreader:

Then I began to wonder about how everything would fit. Way back when I first received the plans and John and I chose the mahogany set I was a little dismayed to find out that the sides were slightly shorter than the length of the template on the plans. I don't remember what it was exactly but we're talking an inch, give or take. I wondered how this would affect how the sides fit into the mold once we bended them. So I did some reading on OLF and broke out my plans and acrylic template:

... I looked at the figures on the plans and set out to measure how close I came to on the mold. First I marked the target waist line on my mold vs. the plans:

Then I measured the length of the waist to the tail joint:

...then the waist to the neck joint:

Then I wrote down the results:

Looks like my waist is off by 1/16" but the target length is nearly right on. Not bad for eye-balling things if I do say so myself.

Then I marked my template for the appropriate trim lines:

So what does this tell me? Well, my hope is that I can avoid any cupping in the mold once the sides are bent and clamped in and the waist spreader put to tension. I want everything nice and snug without being too long. It looks like I have about 13/16" to play with. I need to go back and measure how long the mahogany sides really are now.

[rickoshea]

great job on the mould Neal . Have you made lower bout, upper bout, and longitudinal spreaders? The upper and lower bout ones will ensure the sides are nice and snug to the mould and the the longitudinal ones do the same plus make glueing the neck and tailblocks easier.

I made mine like this (the spreader bit starts about 6 mins into the video) :

its dead easy - the only bad bit for me was having to hand saw the threaded steel rod ... what a complete git of a job that was

[kwakatak]

Hehe - yeah, I've watched that video, Rick. They're working with MDF and there's TONS of dust because they made something like 12 sets of molds and spreaders. It was a HOWL seeing them with the brooms because I've learned first hand that that stuff is MESSY to work with. I'm soooo glad I switched to working with plywood because one session of sanding my bending forms coated my entire basement in a fine coat of MDF dust which actually has me a little worried.

Now regarding the spreaders, that's the reason why I measured everything out so precisely. From lurking at the unofficial luthier's forum I've heard that so long as you PRECISELY mark where centerline for the waist is and give yourself about 1/4" the waist spreader should be enough to keep everything snug - especially once the kerfing and tail and neck blocks are installed.

Of course, I'm about to head down into my garage (it has better ventilation) to cut out some bout spreaders just in case. I've got a couple more turnbuckles in reserve and lots of plywood scrap to work with and I'm getting better with the band saw.

Then I just have to get back to those bending forms and get them all squared up. A table spindle would come in handy right now but I don't have access to one. It would have simplified a LOT of things. I'm dreading it because they're MDF and I HATE the mess (have I mentioned that? )

Next week I hope to be bending the sides though.

So tomorrow I head over to my friend's workshop where I'll be working on the rosette. He's got a dremel, one of those rosette jigs and LOTS of rosewood scrap. My top is ready and my soundboard template is accurate so that I mark the sound hole position and the outline. With any luck I'll get the rosette in and then one or two last passes through the drum sander to get everything flush. Then it's back to the band saw to make them shaped like a guitar.

Here's my homework for next week:

EDIT: as for why only one set of spreaders may be necessary, that's covered in part 3:

[kwakatak]

Well, last night was certainly productive: we made 6 rosewood coasters!

Seriously, the intent was to get a .1" wide ring of rosewood (with a 5" radius) for my rosette last night and it took 6 tries. FYI: we used a dremel with the Stewmac sound hole jig.

I brought my D-16GT to copy the rosette and provide something to measure with a set of calipers but ultimately decided that it was best just use as "ballpark" and see what would work. Again, my inexperience with woodworking was partly to blame but at least I have all my fingers - it was close there on one try.

It made sense to do the inner ring first and then the outer, which was a good thing because the circular cutout served as a good template for the next 5 attempts. Each time, the "inner" pass went well but the first few attempts met with disaster as the little ring would suddenly fly off into several pieces. On one pass the bit actually dropped through the work piece and about 1/4" into the table below, which was not a big deal but did cause some tear out in the rosewood which was and proved to be the most spectacular failure.

Ultimately I stood back and let my friend John do it and it took him 3 tries too, but he had a few good ideas which seemed to solve the tear-out issues:

1: apply a layer of shellac to the work area to reinforce it

2: tape everything down so that the work piece was flush against the work table and could not move.

2: stop and clear out the accumulating rosewood dust because it may have been interfering with the dremel bit

Ultimately, we did successfully cut out a contiguous ring of rosewood that is still somewhat slim (probably around .15") but by then it was getting too late to clean it up and inlay it in the top. That's probably a GOOD thing.

Sorry no pics yet, but there were some taken.

[10ae1203]

Never having built a guitar before, I might be talking out of turn here, but why don't you just rip a thin strip and use that?

If I understand this right, you have a lot of short grain on both ends. How will you pick it up without it turning into a bunch of pieces?

[Freeman Keller]

Not sure I follow that, Neil, but the one time that I did a wooden rosette I routed a circular channel in some scrap, then soaked the pieces of wood in water and applied a little heat with a heat gun, working it into the channel. Basically the same thing as bending binding. This was some old timey "rope" binding that I used on the twelves string, it has some bwb binding on each side and was split in the center to make is symetrical

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...e/IMG_1865.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...e/IMG_1866.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...e/IMG_1867.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...e/IMG_1868.jpg

I just use a simple Dremel router base, but I had to modify it because it wouldn't do small enough circles. Even tho I painted a little shellac on the spruce I did get a little tearout, but I think it is OK

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...e/IMG_2016.jpg

[panhandler]

God bless ya, that looks like a lotta work!

[kwakatak]

 

Originally Posted by Freeman Keller

Not sure I follow that, Neil, but the one time that I did a wooden rosette I routed a circular channel in some scrap, then soaked the pieces of wood in water and applied a little heat with a heat gun, working it into the channel. Basically the same thing as bending binding. This was some old timey "rope" binding that I used on the twelves string, it has some bwb binding on each side and was split in the center to make is symetrical

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...e/IMG_1865.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...e/IMG_1866.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...e/IMG_1867.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...e/IMG_1868.jpg

I just use a simple Dremel router base, but I had to modify it because it wouldn't do small enough circles. Even tho I painted a little shellac on the spruce I did get a little tearout, but I think it is OK

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...e/IMG_2016.jpg

 

Not quite the same thing, Freeman, but close. Looking at what you did though made me wonder if what he have is even usable.

What we did last night was cut a ring of rosewood from a discarded rosewood back that was already sanded to thickness. It needs a little cleanup but it's a consistent width. The idea is to drop it in between two concentric rings of BWB purfling.

Here's what I was thinking the process would involve.

1: measure out the width of the purfling

2: mark out four concentric rings that are separated exactly by the width of the rosewood ring, taking into account the width of the purfling too and use the dremel to route out channels for each

3: shellac the top

4: install the BWB purfling

5: route out a channel between the two center rings (jsut as you would if you were putting in an abalone ring

6: flood the trench with CA and insert the rosewood

The thing I'm trying to grasp is how to make everything flush before installation. I still need to measure the thickness of the rosewood ring and the purfling strips.Since I'm using multicolor purfling I don't think sanding is a good idea. I've been referring to Kinkead's book and he uses a cabinet scraper.

Before all this happens though my cedar top needs to go through the drum sander a few more times at 120 grit to take out the marks from the 80 grit.

[Freeman Keller]

There is a trick for doing abalone that might work here. You route your channel the total width of the abalone plus any edge trim (plus a hair for glue and working space). Put in the trim, but instead of the pearl you use a piece of teflon that is the same width (you can buy at the lutherie supply houses). Glue doesn't stick to the teflon so when you pull it out you have a nice clean channel. The pearl goes in in short little pieces, maybe this would work for your rosewood. Here are a couple of pictures of putting the rosette in the parlor - might give you some ideas

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...r/IMG_1020.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...r/IMG_1023.jpg

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...r/IMG_1025.jpg

I've heard of the trick of flooding with CA but I don't think it has enough working time - I just use yellow glue, even for the pearl. I also let the purfling stand a little proud and just scrap it down to the top, however I try to make the pearl the same height. Anyway, don't know if this would work for the rosewood but it sure is slick for abalone (I've used it for pearl around binding too).

[kwakatak]

Thanks, Freeman. I wish I knew where I could get something like that before tomorrow. In the meantime, I was thinking about some rough measurements and did a little drafting in Adobe Illustrator:

Before that though I was working on my bending forms. I think I have them pretty close:

The cross section is nearly flat and square to the sides so I shouldn't have any major toe-in problems when I bend the sides. The waist is the only area that really needs attention but by using the t-square as a scraper I should be able to get it there:

It's not perfect to the template but I'm anticipating that the mahogany sides will have a little spring back. As long as the spreaders and outside mold do their job I'm hoping things will be fine. Just to be sure, I checked to see if there was adequate space in the mold for the spreaders to fit so that the spring back is at a minimum:

I'm mostly concerned about the waist since that's where most of the flexing is reputed to occur. First the bass side:

...then the treble:

It looks like I can stand to shave a little more off the upper and lower bouts too though.

[Freeman Keller]

If you can wait a couple of days I can send you some (I assume you are talking about the teflon). I'm at work right now and can't send it until tomorrow, overnight FexEx would have it to you wednesday or thursday at the latest. If you want to do that PM me your snail mail addy.

That was always a big frustration for me - I would get to the point where I needed something and have to order it with fast delivery - sometimes the shipping was more than the price.

[sixgunner455]

Looks like you guys are having a lot of fun with this, in spite of all the set-backs and minor frustrations. I assume that stuff is part of the fun, anyway.

[kwakatak]

 

Originally Posted by Freeman Keller

If you can wait a couple of days I can send you some (I assume you are talking about the teflon). I'm at work right now and can't send it until tomorrow, overnight FexEx would have it to you wednesday or thursday at the latest. If you want to do that PM me your snail mail addy.

That was always a big frustration for me - I would get to the point where I needed something and have to order it with fast delivery - sometimes the shipping was more than the price.

 

Well, this is a diversion from my true frustrations so no big deal really. It doesn't look like I'm going to get to this before Friday so I'll PM you the details.

[kwakatak]

Not much else to report other than I wanted to take some time to pat myself on the back. I'm finally getting the hang of that little band saw.

The other day I screwed up a 32" long template (for the side) when I got carried away with a sanding spindle on my hand drill. Technically it wasn't too big a deal since the template is a guide with area marked off where the wood will be sanded off anyway but I'm a perfectionist and I know where to score acrylic scrap so I decided to do the template over. The night before last I got a piece big enough and traced the template out again. Then yesterday while I was home alone with my 3 year-old (who's very needy and curious) I managed to sneak away and trim it on the band saw.

It took 5 minutes and came out nearly perfect - maybe 1/32" in a couple of places. Nothing too bad to risk the freehand sanding rig anyway. I may take my cheap little hand-held belt sander and carefully trim the areas flush - then again maybe not. I'm thinking it's close enough.

Meanwhile it's almost time to start thinking about cutting up some spruce billets for bracing. That band saw is going to see more use and I'm not afraid of it anymore. In fact I'm glad I have it. I could use some clamps though.

[10ae1203]

One can never have enough clamps.

[kwakatak]

After the grand rosewood rosette fiasco a week ago John snapped some pics:

Yes, I have a set of coasters, but what I really have plans for is that ring. I'm pretty happy with that western red cedar top too though!

He's either proud that we gouged up his $10 postal office table or perturbed. I can't tell:

[kwakatak]

Well, it's been a couple of weeks but I I finally made it back out to the official Kitchen Guitars workshop. His day gig has kept him busy and my life is literally insane. It felt good to get back though because the wind was just about out of my sails.

We didn't do anything worthy of reporting other than to say that I had to redo my rosewood donut because the first one wasn't all that clean. This time I went with a fatter thickness to the ring and gave several passes with the dremel adding a little more depth each time so that I got a cleaner cut. It took a long time but I feel better-acquainted with the tool and hope to get back soon to finish the rosette and cut the soundhole - which I'm told takes several passes in a similar fashion.

In the meantime, I have the outline on my top marked and have a starting point to go from with my rosette. It's not much, but it's progress nonetheless.