Going to overhaul a Harmony

[Gary Palmer]

Nice try Fiend. I never deleted a post. Sure Gary, you mention my YouTube handle the same day a guy from England opens a YouTube account and places a comment on my page. I give you an A+ for effort.

I have your Youtube listing set among my favourites and it's been there for quite some time. Very possibly due to the fact I think you're a very good player. The only comments I've ever made on Youtube - in your direction - were quite some time ago and praised your playing. There was certainly nothing derogatory and I've honestly far better things to do with my life than bother anyone in the manner you imply. If there's anything to say I'll say it to your face and in person.

You're obviously on the wrong track. England may well be comparitively small and have a smaller population than the US, but you've quite a choice if you wish to single out someone for passing comments on Youtube. Is there a more specific location given for this person? A postcode or something? Perhaps someone read my post and decided to check you out? I don't honestly know.

It's the first time I've heard of someone handing out marks for comments.
The last A I had was during my university days.

[guitarcapo]

Gary, I'll make you a deal: You and your low post count "friend" don't post comments in my threads and I'll stay out of yours. You obviously don't agree with my building techniques so I don't see why you'd feel the need to come around here with your negativity. I really see no reason to check out any thread that you start at any rate. Maybe you can drum up some attention on your own topics instead if that's what you are after.

Fair enough?

[Gary Palmer]

Gary, I'll make you a deal: You and your low post count "friend" don't post comments in my threads and I'll stay out of yours. You obviously don't agree with my building techniques so I don't see why you'd feel the need to come around here with your negativity. I really see no reason to check out any thread that you start at any rate. Maybe you can drum up some attention on your own topics instead if that's what you are after. Fair enough?

 

 

My "friend" and I - as you put it - aren't friends. Low post count or not he's his own person and I've nothing to do with what you seem to be implying. I've already categorically confirmed your assumptions regarding the other poster's identity as being wrong. Get over it. He's young and perhaps learnt a valuable lesson.

 

Inasmuch as disagreeing with your build techniques. I'd already mentioned - a while ago - the reason behind my thinking you'd not profiled your braces or voiced the soundboard. There was sufficient meat on the braces to refloat the Titanic, but the primarily reason for raising the point was your not mentioning or picturing the particularly relevant step in question. You explained the situation and I'd very readily accepted. Read back and you'll see my agreement in very plain view.

 

Drumming up attention isn't something I'm interesting it and I rarely post threads, but seeing posts or threads that place others at risk of copying potentially flawed methods/theories will always tend to draw my attention and comments.

 

I've explained myself far more than need be and I'm afraid it's no deal regarding non-participation. I simply entered this thread when I saw another forumite being attacked for providing what appeared to be accurate information and nothing more or less. It's unfortunate you and others missread my intent and a lynch mob mentality moved into play, but we can't have everything. Can we?

[bigald18]

Of course, I have to put my three cents in. I truly think that everybody can piss and moan about how every one else is wrong. "You did that to me and I'll do that to you." It's starting to sound like a bunch of third graders blaming each other when they get into trouble for having a fight. Who started it doesn't matter. Who did what to who doesn't matter. I made it clear a long time ago who I side with in these feuds. That doesn't matter. What does matter is that everyone, right or wrong, is entitled to their own opinion. If you post something, it becomes open game for others to judge. The criticism may hurt but if it is constructive, why not. This is not an England vs US battle or a religious battle or anything like that. This is a FORUM. A forum discusses and debates topics, period. If you don't like it than you shouldn't participate. There is a big difference between discussion of lutherie and guitars and name calling. We can all disagree without this nastiness cropping up all the time. Who's fat and stupid and who knows more about what is nonesense. We should be exchanging ideas, period.

Now you can all hate me!

BigAl

[Hudman]

Of course, I have to put my three cents in. I truly think that everybody can piss and moan about how every one else is wrong. "You did that to me and I'll do that to you." It's starting to sound like a bunch of third graders blaming each other when they get into trouble for having a fight. Who started it doesn't matter. Who did what to who doesn't matter. I made it clear a long time ago who I side with in these feuds. That doesn't matter. What does matter is that everyone, right or wrong, is entitled to their own opinion. If you post something, it becomes open game for others to judge. The criticism may hurt but if it is constructive, why not. This is not an England vs US battle or a religious battle or anything like that. This is a FORUM. A forum discusses and debates topics, period. If you don't like it than you shouldn't participate. There is a big difference between discussion of lutherie and guitars and name calling. We can all disagree without this nastiness cropping up all the time. Who's fat and stupid and who knows more about what is nonesense. We should be exchanging ideas, period. Now you can all hate me! BigAl

 

No hate from me.

 

I agree with you.

[gitnoob]

Now you can all hate me!

Thanks, I had a bunch of pent-up hostility, and I needed an outlet.

[bigald18]

No hate from me. I agree with you.

Then if you agree why do you persist in this stupid feud???

BigAl

[Hudman]

Then if you agree why do you persist in this stupid feud??? BigAl

 

I don't see myself as participating in a feud.

 

I stood up for GuitarCapo because I didn't think he deserved the treatment he received.

 

I would have stood up for Gary Palmer if he posted pictures of his work and got slammed for it. Yes, it's not my job to police the forum, but it is an open forum. We are all entitled to our opinions. I don't see the value in negative comments about people's work, their religious beliefs, their attitude about women, their weight, their looks, their intelligence, etc, etc, etc. I view that as bullying.

 

Gary hates me. That's fine. Gary's buddies probably hate me too. That's also fine. I'm not a bad guy but I will play the villain if it makes people feel better about it. It's not true, but what difference does it make?

 

I do my best to help people on this forum. That will never change. Write me off as a troll or an instigator or whatever you want.

 

"I am whatever you say I am"....but I'm not feuding with Gary. I made my opinion known without going in the gutter. I know how he feels. I have no interest in convincing him that he is wrong about me.

 

Adults can agree not to agree.

[Galabar]

Just to be sure we all remember, the conversation went something like this:

You've seen a Harmony with a two pieced back now. I'm sorry, but I work as a luthier and not all two or multiple piece backed guitars use reinforcement strips. Having said all of that, the back pictured clearly shows an offset centre seam running between what remains of the end blocks . It's either two piece solid or a laminated piece, but not a one piece. Over bracing can be worse than under bracing, but I would have thought re-bracing could have involved more of a balance between on voicing and structure, rather than structure alone. The heavy bracing dimensions you've used typically equate with over bracing and limiting voice. Perhaps good for plugged in play, but not unwired performance. Pictures speak a thousand words and it's unfortunate to see such a lack of care being taken with an instrument apparently intended for resale .

Mr. Stonebridge comes into the forum, attempts to lay down some street cred by attacking a longtime member, and hilarity ensues. Then we get Uncle Gary returning from self banishment to defend Mr. Stonebridge.

A word of advice -- when introducing yourself to a new Internet forum, being on your best behavior is key.

I am a top software engineer and make far more than most (all?) luthiers. However, I don't disparage every website I see because it wasn't "professionally" created. Indeed, some of the most useful Internet services are created by comp. lit. majors with a penchant for HTML and a good idea. They create websites held together by straw and bubblegum and make millions because they have provided something useful.

Guitarcapo reworked an old Harmony, creating an instrument that was pleasing to his ears. If he sells it, the buyer will have made the decision that the instrument was worth the money being exchanged.

Given Guitarcapo's experience with wood sets, I'm going to trust that he can spot a one-piece back. Also, to me, the bracing does look lighter than what he started with (of course, if I doubted him, I might have asked him nicely, possibly in a PM, what his approach to voicing was).

S Stonebridge has shown an astounding lack of class and an equally astounding level of conceit. It is no wonder that my mind jumped directly to Gary Palmer when I read his initial posts.

Each of you, please, get a life.

Guitarcapo posted a useful thread. The last thing we need is a snot-nosed apprentice luthier or a "retired" (i.e. on benefits) luthier attacking an amateur wood worker for what is a reasonable treatment of an inexpensive instrument.

p.s. Gary Palmer -- you brought up your children. No one attacked them. Please spare us the hyperbole.

[Gary Palmer]

Gary, you seem like a good guy and all and being a woodworker, I certainly can respect you for your knowledge in luthiery. You made a post about not wanting your kids to post their playing here in fear that some schmuck would slam their abilities. That's a point well taken and I agree in that I'd hope nobody here would EVER do that unless the player ASKED for the critique. Your point is valid and exactly the point that I was trying to convey earlier. However, if we substitute critiquing playing abilities with critiquing ones workmanship that's exactly what happened with GC. If GC started this post saying "hey, look at my work and critique it", Sean's comments would be approiate. That's not the case here and I think deep down, you know it. An other way to look it this would be if maybe one of your kids posted a tune and somebody flat out said it was poor or careless and justified saying so because your kid might be getting paid to play the song. Would you really condone that behavior? I would hope you wouldn't. Sean's comments may not appear rude or harsh to you, but to most of us they did. I don't know GC any better than I know you so I have no stake in any of this, but thought those comments were way out of line considering the spirit in which this thread was written. I don't know... maybe a bit of language barrior, maybe not, but to me his first few posts were very rude when you look at this in that light. Maybe give that a thought.

 

 

I agree with a great deal of what you're saying and certainly include your views regarding the other lad's comments. I agree with probably far more than many realise and whilst your perspective is perfectly acceptable, my point regarding having my kids post something was perhaps from a different perspective.

 

My youngest children are 12 and 14 respectively (Their older siblings have no interest in performing guitar for others anyway) and I'd not willingly volunteer them for a situation that could potentially place them at risk of abuse.

 

Neither their mother or I abuse them and it would be wrong for us to leave them at risk of abuse. The being - perhaps - overly protective situation does and will change once they've reached adulthood and are no longer minors. I'll still remain very protective, but they have to make their own way in life and take knocks in much the same way as the rest of us.

 

As adults, if they place their work or musicality on public display they open themselves to critique - wanted or not - that can take many forms, but they have to be willing to do so and accept such situations, regardless of whether or not comments were desired. It's not nice being told you're a crap player, but I'd prefer they only hear that kind of thing from strangers once they're older and capable of handling it far better than at their present ages. They'll then possess the necessary vocabulary to adequately respond in whichever manner they choose and sufficient maturity to accept what was said and move on in a positive manner while learning from it and moving ahead.

 

I definitely agree Sean's remarks where akin to long range sniper shots. They certainly could have been worded far better and his intent stated much more clearly, but I don't think we're going to find out unless he decides to post again. I hope he learns. Something I did sense among his posts were concerns regarding accurate information and possibly poor end results if someone were to follow suit using the same or similar methods. I honestly had to agree in terms of the amount of material not trimmed from the braces (Now clarified) and still have genuine reservations concerning the methods and tools used to separate the backplate for the soundbox.

 

The intent behind this thread was a matter of sharing the process of revitalising a fixer upper instrument that was in need of some fairly serious work. I've already said it and will repeat my congratulations to GC for doing so, but - in light of my own experience, emails and messages I've received from several other luthiers who've also read this thread - ask that GC reviews his backplate removal methods.

 

The points regarding brace trimming and voicing were cleared up a while ago.

 

If hide glue were used, a dab of alcohol ran into the seam ahead of a thin blunt bladed knife is often all it takes to carefully encourage back separation. Very limited/no scarring or fresh wood exposed in situations involving older instruments you may wish to retain an aged look. Add a degree or two of gentle heat and the above method will aid clean block release and there'll be no casualties at the end of the day. End blocks, linings and original geometry remain intact, plus there's more time available for improvement work, trimming up and a reduced risk of adding unecessary work/processes.

 

The same method works for fingerboard replacement.

 

A paragraph and a line of description was all it took to hopefully avoid other's/future frustrated attempts at the same work while reducing potential A&E queues caused by cuts fingers and accidental amputations. Whether the information is accepted or not is totally up to GC and anyone else who may have been interested.

[mjuenem]

Just to be sure we all remember, the conversation went something like this: Ok, fair enough. Then we get: A reasonable response (more measured than I would have been). Guitarcapo attempts to explain his approach. However, then we see this: Mr. Stonebridge comes into the forum, attempts to lay down some street cred by attacking a longtime member, and hilarity ensues. Then we get Uncle Gary returning from self banishment to defend Mr. Stonebridge. A word of advice -- when introducing yourself to a new Internet forum, being on your best behavior is key. I am a top software engineer and make far more than most (all?) luthiers. However, I don't disparage every website I see because it wasn't "professionally" created. Indeed, some of the most useful Internet services are created by comp. lit. majors with a penchant for HTML and a good idea. They create websites held together by straw and bubblegum and make millions because they have provided something useful. Guitarcapo reworked an old Harmony, creating an instrument that was pleasing to his ears. If he sells it, the buyer will have made the decision that the instrument was worth the money being exchanged. Given Guitarcapo's experience with wood sets, I'm going to trust that he can spot a one-piece back. Also, to me, the bracing does look lighter than what he started with (of course, if I doubted him, I might have asked him nicely, possibly in a PM, what his approach to voicing was). S Stonebridge has shown an astounding lack of class and an equally astounding level of conceit. It is no wonder that my mind jumped directly to Gary Palmer when I read his initial posts. Each of you, please, get a life. Guitarcapo posted a useful thread. The last thing we need is a snot-nosed apprentice luthier or a "retired" (i.e. on benefits) luthier attacking an amateur wood worker for what is a reasonable treatment of an inexpensive instrument. p.s. Gary Palmer -- you brought up your children. No one attacked them. Please spare us the hyperbole.

Very well said...until after the words "The last thing..."

[Galabar]

Very well said...until after the words "The last thing..."

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I tried to stay out of the sewer but no matter how far I reached down, I couldn't get level with them.

[mjuenem]

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I tried to stay out of the sewer but no matter how far I reached down, I couldn't get level with them.

Well, I guess we can let her slide this time:poke:

[Galabar]

Well, I guess we can let her slide this time:poke:

Thank you. Now, let's start a new bridge pin thread and let the fun really begin.

[mjuenem]

Thank you. Now, let's start a new bridge pin thread and let the fun really begin.

OK, I'll bite! How about those bridge pins (not) on GC's Harmony? I think that is his secret to the good tone. On the other hand, how do you customize the tone without them?

[guildfire]

What a quality thread.

[Hudman]

What a quality thread.

 

It's not as good as the bridgepin thread......(I didn't make a single post in that one).....

[guildfire]

It's got a ways to go to beat Taylor Swift thread.

C,mon guys don't let TN Frank's Taylor Swift thread beat you.

[Gary Palmer]

Gary hates me.

 

 

I hate nobody and treat none as enemies, but I've been sorely tempted on more than one occasion.

 

Report me and have me banned, flogged or whatever....... I'm honestly past the point of caring.

 

------------

 

Insofar as Galabar's comments............I'll resist my initial reaction and avoid stooping to such levels, but will simply state I am not Sean Stonebridge's uncle and don't need to be on benefits. I'm financially secure and very fortunate to be able to say so. The remaining venom, accusations and insinuations toward myself are unwarranted.

 

Think and believe whatever you wish, but at least get your facts straight whilst considering your next offering.

 

If I were conceited (Had excessive pride in myself) I'd post in an entirely egocentric manner utilising hyperbole (Exaggerated none literal statements) as a means of enhancing given points. Much akin to your references and insinuations surrounding income, benefits, etc.

 

Face to face conversations seldom lead to such bitterness - on your part - and I'd tried to explain so on a previous occasion in PM following one of your ill advised attempts at humour that was aimed at me on the forum, but you had to over react, throw the baby out with the bath water and threaten me with every form of action and legal intervention barring invasion. We both know the truth and precisely who had overstepped the mark.

 

Both then and now.

 

No doubt you're not interested, but........Do you honestly know how wide a hacksaw kerf is with set or nno set to the blade? Now much material it removes if used on end blocks? How much an instrument's geometry can be altered by this and the ensuing removal of latent material that hadn't been hit by the saw? Lack of care is a fairly mild way of describing the resulting damage and consequence, but far more was said with concern to achieving the best possible results without any need for any form of rocket scientist approach.

[guildfire]

Good, that's more like it. We are back on track.

[gitnoob]

 

If hide glue were used, a dab of alcohol ran into the seam ahead of a thin blunt bladed knife is often all it takes to carefully encourage back separation.

 

 

The drama is entertaining, but I find this kind of stuff more interesting.

 

So what do you do if you have an instrument with unknown glue? Do you take multiple passes at it?

 

Specifically, how would you approach removing the back from my Chinese-made Silver Creek? It has a thick poly-something finish on it, which probably has considerable binding properties in addition to the unknown glue holding it together.

[guitarcapo]

[YOUTUBE]8tMvB6Wbmm0[/YOUTUBE]

[guitarcapo]

 

The drama is entertaining, but I find this kind of stuff more interesting. So what do you do if you have an instrument with unknown glue? Do you take multiple passes at it? Specifically, how would you approach removing the back from my Chinese-made Silver Creek? It has a thick poly-something finish on it, which probably has considerable binding properties in addition to the unknown glue holding it together.

 

 

 

Hide and aliphatic resin are going to come off with steam and heat eventually.

Epoxy...well I think you are pretty much screwed there. It will degrade with enough heat and steam...but the wood will degrade first. Newer guitars are definitely put together tougher than old guitars. Those old harmony guitars were built by a huge music factory that also made cellos, violins, ukes etc. So they used traditional finishes and glues used on classical string instruments like hid glue and shellac spirit varnish. Quality violins are built to be able to be taken apart in the future...and older guitars valued that quality. Modern guitars seem to be more disposable. Poly is a bitch to refinish or remove. Dipped in plastic if you ask me.

 

 

But enough of this ranting about bridge pins and brace voicing...how about the tonal benefits one can achieve by covering an entire guitar with vintage travel decals from 1950's Florida and pre-Castro Cuba? I prefer vintage decals. Any decals after about 1962 sound awful.

 

There's some pretty cool ones on this Harmony. One has extinct sea turtle fishing, another shows the old Miami airport, Dayton Beach car racing (on the beach of course) and a few from Cuba before Castro sucked all the tone out of them.

 

[YOUTUBE]OciQPJyJ5BE[/YOUTUBE]

[Gary Palmer]

The drama is entertaining, but I find this kind of stuff more interesting. So what do you do if you have an instrument with unknown glue? Do you take multiple passes at it? Specifically, how would you approach removing the back from my Chinese-made Silver Creek? It has a thick poly-something finish on it, which probably has considerable binding properties in addition to the unknown glue holding it together.

I hate drama, as well as being dragged back to the same old thing time and time again.

Age is one thing, but glue type can seldom be guaranteed unless you know the maker and periods during which he or they may have switched from one glue to another. Burn tests aren't uncommon and given glues burn in certain ways, so it's a case of sampling the glue and torching it. Don't torch it, I was kidding. Light the sample with a match and judge the material via flame colour and odour. PVA's smell like plastic and Hide glue smells like burnt flesh and sometimes singed hair.

Back removal is one of the last things you ever want to consider as most internal work can be done via the soundhole. Oone bad move and you've a train wreck on your hands. Outside finsih tends not to be a problem regarding glue attachment, but you typically need to score a line directly on the edge of binding in order to avoid chipping or otherwise damaging finish.

With regard to your Silver Creek sight unseen, I'd tend to assume they've used a Titebond like glue and it tends to free with carefully applied, but you need to be aware that the same heat will also free braces and potentially the bridge if inadvertantly applied too closely or for too long. It's a case of softening the glue and not trying to melt it into oblivion.

What kind of project do you have in mind? I'm certain a better and less drastic route can be taken instead of backplate removal.

[Gary Palmer]

Hide and aliphatic resin are going to come off with steam and heat eventually. Epoxy...well I think you are pretty much screwed there. It will degrade with enough heat and steam...but the wood will degrade first. Newer guitars are definitely put together tougher than old guitars. Those old harmony guitars were built by a huge music factory that also made cellos, violins, ukes etc. So they used traditional finishes and glues used on classical string instruments like hid glue and shellac spirit varnish. Quality violins are built to be able to be taken apart in the future...and older guitars valued that quality. Modern guitars seem to be more disposable. Poly is a bitch to refinish or remove. Dipped in plastic if you ask me.

 

 

Epoxy glues can be killed, but potential problems rest in staining the surrounding wood and careful research is necessary if considering an epoxy removal.

 

Not so much dipped, but more a case of higher build finishes. Poly isn't as bad as it may seem to repair. Ensure the damaged surface is clean and it's possible to drop fill using superglue, scrape and buff to match the surrounding finish. Just be careful when in contact with light coloured timbers as it can discolour lighter woods such a spruce, maple, etc. A mask of clear shellac often works in such instances, but - as always - test drive beforehand and whenever possible. If air bubbles prove to be a problem, another drop of superglue will re-melt the original fill and tend to clear up the effect.