Going to overhaul a Harmony

[Gary Palmer]

Yeah... I'm Capo. I needed an alter ego so badly that I posted a crappy sound clip of my NOOB playing skills just so I could defend my self when some self serving brit wants to attack me for showing my work. Now that we know that I'm NOT Capo, I will tell you that I am a woodworker. I've forgotten more about that than most will ever know. I'm still on a few woodworking forums. I've NEVER seen anyone who's mastered the craft of woodworking bash another woodworkers talents or work. WHEN ASKED, they've received constructive critiques. Guitar making is just another form of woodworking, not some magical mysterious witchcraft. It appears to me that you sir and your alter circle jerking ego are the ONLY ones who have some problem with the content of this thread. In the spirit of keeping this forum informative and NOT personal, perhaps you could post a thread doing a similar project and YOUR approach/technique.

 

Good for you.

 

No alter ego or pseudonyms here lad and you made it personal with your last post, but read what you will from what I'm about to write and in spite of what you've already implied.

 

N.B.I am not Sean Stonebridge.

 

My sincere appologies wherever appologies are necessary. While others know my work well, I don't feel a need to display my craft skills on a forum for your benefit. There is a thread with a limited amount of my work within, but you'll have to excuse my poor photography skills. Rather than post pictures, why not meet up and compare craft skills in the workshop over a two week period, but no doubt you've forgotten more than I'll ever know? I'm retired and have both the time and willingness to share practical and theoretical knowledge. Let me know.

 

By woodworker I assume you have a speciality trade that fits within the all encompassing descriptive of "woodworker". It's anything from lumberjacking, sawmilling, turning, carpenter, joiner and cabinetmaker through to matchmaking and erecting shelves? Yet - despite your extensive knowledge - you classify the work shown in this thread as quality? Very strange indeed from one so experienced, but your assertions tend to imply otherwise, or you need an eye test. Guitarcapo may well be able to help you there.

 

I don't enjoy saying this, but - if too sensitive - perhaps you're too used to chatting with or working alongside people that are all too willing to let standards slide? I don't honestly know, but if someone states something as being gospel - yet their workmanship states otherwise - isn't it more sensible to make flaws known rather than allow others to think such standards/working practices are acceptable? I could plumb a house and display my work process and end results for all to see, but wouldn't be at all surprised if a professional plumber criticised or ripped my work to shreds if it was below par. I'd be willing to accept and learn from that.

 

I sincerely commend Guitarcapo for his efforts and willingness, but his work - as Sean quite rightly said - is unfortunately not of a marketable standard and not something you'd expect of someone with in excess of ten years experience. It would be wrong to imply otherwise, but all that glistens is not gold and acoustic instruments respond best if their internal structure is carefully considered and main elements are adequately voiced.

 

Nobody has ever implied luthiery was a craft borne of sorcery, black magic - call it what you will - and as a luthier I'm more than content to encourage others to give it a try and participate. I always have and always will encourage newcomers to what is all too quickly becoming a dying profession. It's an extremely rewarding - yet sometimes frustrating - craft that's open to all who wish to participate, but book reading and theory doesn't always translate well when it comes to hands on experience. Not everyone will succeed, but the best means by which the chance of success can be enhanced is via trying to perfect each aspect by adopting uniform practices regardless of instrument value.

 

I may be proven wrong and sincerely hope I am, but the drop-off rate within kit based luthiery apparently stands at around 80% and mostly concerning various snags encountered during builds. Much is connected to poorly worded instructions and the temptation to assemble parts before they're fully ready. Such high figures can be reduced if amateur builders are willing to listen to and consider information as it's presented by professionals. What they do with such information is up to them, but one of the most important facts involved with learning any trade/craft is the genuine need to listen.

 

Less time in fora and more time spent working within the craft and not in solitude will tend to shed far more light on how critique can be given/used/viewed constructively. Regardless of profession/discipline and whether or not someone listens and takes criticism on board is entirely up to the individual.

[Gary Palmer]

 

I think I didn't articulate that very well. Luthiery IS a type of woodworking and definitely a craft. But it's no different than any other craft in that with the right instruction and enough experience, it can be mastered. Nothing magical, just knowledge, time, and experience. If you think about it, luthiery parellels playing guitar. Some are masters, some are noobs, and most fall somewhere in between. The point I was trying to make earlier was and is still that if one of us posted a song that we've been working on and some "master" player came on here and attacked them, it would be deemed inappropriate. As to the point that the OP may charge money doesn't make sense either. How many times have we seen performers at some venue that weren't "masters"? Would it be appropriate to interrupt someones perfomance to say... "hey, you're not playing that correctly! You're playing that poorly! I'm an apprentice and I know." Regardless if the attackers have more luthiery skills or experience, the OP went through a lot of effort in taking all of those pics, uploading the pics, writing the thread, and doing a video of the results. He didn't deserve to be attacked for his efforts.

 

 

Attack is too harsh a word and whilst luthiery is another form of woodworking, it singularly produces musical instruments that are voiced in order to ring out loud and true. They're not built solely on an aesthetic or structural basis. Tolerances are extremely high throughout the entire build process and rightly need to be in order for the instrument to function at the best possible level. More so if dealing with lower quality materials or restoring old instruments.

 

Sean may well be comparitively young, but much of what he said was true.

[Hudman]

GuitarCapo never claimed to be a master guitar builder or a priest.

 

I have no idea why ANYONE would feel the need to slam his work or mention his religion in this thread.

 

There is no need to be a prick to a self-admitted amateur builder. It seems like most people liked the fact that he took the time to share his work with the forum.

[tbry]

 

GuitarCapo never claimed to be a master guitar builder or a priest. I have no idea why ANYONE would feel the need to slam his work or mention his religion in this thread. There is no need to be a prick to a self-admitted amateur builder. It seems like most people liked the fact that he took the time to share his work with the forum.

 

 

I agree with you...I don't get what the fuss is about...He fixed a guitar and posted some pics. Someone said he did it wrong? So what...its fixed.

[Gary Palmer]

GuitarCapo never claimed to be a master guitar builder or a priest. I have no idea why ANYONE would feel the need to slam his work or mention his religion in this thread. There is no need to be a prick to an self-admitted amateur builder. It seems like most people liked the fact that he took the time to share his work with the forum.

 

As always, spout forth when you haven't a clue what you're talking about. :blah::

 

A fellow forumites opinion of you

 

"I also got the vibe from Hudman's PMs that if someone insults him, he's going to insult back. Some people feel the need to viciously protect their reputations, and it would seem as though Hud is one of those people. There's not necessarily anything wrong with people like that, but they do have a tendency to be abrasive.

 

Overall, it seems like Hud's a very good instigator and he's good at pushing peoples' buttons. I think he enjoys the rise he's been getting out of people, and I'm not entirely sure that he means everything he says."

 

Food for thought and certainly not a solitary opinion.

[Hudman]

As always, spout forth when you haven't a clue what you're talking about. :blah:: A fellow forumites opinion of you "I also got the vibe from Hudman's PMs that if someone insults him, he's going to insult back. Some people feel the need to viciously protect their reputations, and it would seem as though Hud is one of those people. There's not necessarily anything wrong with people like that, but they do have a tendency to be abrasive. Overall, it seems like Hud's a very good instigator and he's good at pushing peoples' buttons. I think he enjoys the rise he's been getting out of people, and I'm not entirely sure that he means everything he says." Food for thought.

 

You and your fellow forumite are too smart for me.

 

You guys have me all figured out.

 

[guitarcapo]

 

GuitarCapo never claimed to be a master guitar builder or a priest. I have no idea why ANYONE would feel the need to slam his work or mention his religion in this thread. There is no need to be a prick to a self-admitted amateur builder. It seems like most people liked the fact that he took the time to share his work with the forum.

 

 

 

It's stuff that goes way back. Jealousy or pissing contest or whatever.

The idea that someone would be reading the board for years would suddenly

decide to "come out" and post to attack my little guitar repair thread is a pretty funny story.

 

Wah..I don't like his bracing. Wah I don't think it sounds good. Get a life indeed.

 

The low post count is pretty telling. These guys either get banned or called out on their douchebaggery and have to come up with a new forum member name. Gives the illusion that there are more of them than there really are too I guess. Seems like a lot of wasted time to me when you can be chatting about guitar building instead. Anyway this is the one and only Guitarcapo,

since Feb 2003, signing off.

[LiFeStArTs@40]

Now wait a minute... aren't you the guy that had to leave the forum because you didn't like the interactions here? Now you return to piss on someone's work?

[Hudman]

 

I agree with you...I don't get what the fuss is about...He fixed a guitar and posted some pics. Someone said he did it wrong? So what...its fixed.

 

 

 

I give Capo credit for sharing his work and opinions with this forum. I hope he ignores the negative comments and continues to share with us in the future.

[LiFeStArTs@40]

It's stuff that goes way back. Jealousy or pissing contest or whatever. The idea that someone would be reading the board for years would suddenly decide to "come out" and post to attack my little guitar repair thread is a pretty funny story. Wah..I don't like his bracing. Wah I don't think it sounds good. Get a life indeed. The low post count is pretty telling. These guys either get banned or called out on their douchebaggery and have to come up with a new forum member name. Gives the illusion that there are more of them than there really are too I guess. Seems like a lot of wasted time to me when you can be chatting about guitar building instead. Anyway this is the one and only Guitarcapo, since Feb 2003, signing off.

 

I guess for the benifit of the brits, you should wipe down the glue ups before taking the picture. Afterall, seeing hide glue in a picture = poor workmanship.

[Gary Palmer]

 

Now wait a minute... aren't you the guy that had to leave the forum because you didn't like the interactions here? Now you return to piss on someone's work?

 

 

I'm the guy who got pissed off with the {censored}e attitude of many here and decided to no longer post. I still read posts here on a daily basis and saw the crap - yet again - being dealt in the direction of someone with genuine knowledge to share. Then decided to post.

[Gary Palmer]

 

It's stuff that goes way back. Jealousy or pissing contest or whatever. The idea that someone would be reading the board for years would suddenly decide to "come out" and post to attack my little guitar repair thread is a pretty funny story. Wah..I don't like his bracing. Wah I don't think it sounds good. Get a life indeed. The low post count is pretty telling. These guys either get banned or called out on their douchebaggery and have to come up with a new forum member name. Gives the illusion that there are more of them than there really are too I guess. Seems like a lot of wasted time to me when you can be chatting about guitar building instead. Anyway this is the one and only Guitarcapo, since Feb 2003, signing off.

 

 

 

Put forth some accurate info that isn't sourced directly from books and you'll have proven your worth.

 

Jealousy my arse. lol

[Gary Palmer]

I guess for the benifit of the brits, you should wipe down the glue ups before taking the picture. Afterall, seeing hide glue in a picture = poor workmanship.

 

Now that is a very telling attitude. Thankyou for that.

 

I think Sean's post had more to do with brace profiling than surplus glue.

[gitmo]

 

Some people feel the need to viciously protect their reputations.

 

 

I follow about a dozen forums covering three different hobbies and this occurs on all of them. It would be great if everybody got along and all contributed positively to these forums but I've never seen it happen on an unmoderated forum, which this has been since I arrived recently.

 

I really enjoyed the topic of the post and applaud the effort required to document the work for the benefit, and to some degree, entertainment of the forum readers. It is a lot of work to take the photos and place them in proper chronological order with appropriate comments.

 

If Sean, or others feel the work was misinformation I would enjoy a documentary of one of their builds showing proper technique. A title doesn't guarantee a skill either, I've had horrible licensed plumbers to use your analogy. I agree in principle about misinformation but as an objective observer I would consider a separate post showing the differences in technique the best form of criticism.

[Gary Palmer]

 

I follow about a dozen forums covering three different hobbies and this occurs on all of them. It would be great if everybody got along and all contributed positively to these forums but I've never seen it happen on an unmoderated forum, which this has been since I arrived recently. I really enjoyed the topic of the post and applaud the effort required to document the work for the benefit, and to some degree, entertainment of the forum readers. It is a lot of work to take the photos and place them in proper chronological order with appropriate comments. If Sean, or others feel the work was misinformation I would enjoy a documentary of one of their builds showing proper technique. A title doesn't guarantee a skill either, I've had horrible licensed plumbers to use your analogy. I agree in principle about misinformation but as an objective observer I would consider a separate post showing the differences in technique the best form of criticism.

 

 

Very true and - as I've said before - I commend Capo for documenting and being so willing to progress.

 

Skill can very easily be claimed but is only rbought to light by both end results and the process used in order to get there. In all honesty you'll find wholely comparable techniques being used on "The Apprentice" thread, as it will take you and anyone interested through the entire build process involved in building a guitar from a partially prepared kit as it progresses. The only differences being a lack of back plate and soundboard bracing removal.

[gitmo]

you'll find wholely comparable techniques being used on "The Apprentice" thread, as it will take you and anyone interested through the entire build process involved in building a guitar from a partially prepared kit as it progresses. The only differences being a lack of back plate and soundboard bracing removal.

 

Bet that I'm following it.

[guitarcapo]

Maybe I should mention that I didn't take pics of every little thing I did.

I did shape the braces a bit after the pics were taken. I just didn't scallop them. More of a taper to the periphery. Other steps I omitted pics of was leveling the kerfing with a radius dish to accept the back, some of the binding steps,some of the refret steps like truing the fingerboard before the refret with a long radiused block. That stuff can be seen lots of places anyway. I just didn't pick the camera up every step of the way. Weird that I should feel the need to apologize for that. I was mainly trying to demonstrate that neck reset technique.

 

Hide glue is a pain to work with. All that mixing and temp control. I think it makes for a better sound....especially on the soundboard. I'm not using it exclusively yet because it is a messy pain but I do like it for the soundboard area.

[Hudman]

Bet that I'm following it.

 

I'm enjoying it too.

 

 

You may want to do a search of Freeman Keller's old posts. He documented several kit builds and a few scratch builds. He does a great job of walking you through the process.

[Gary Palmer]

 

Maybe I should mention that I didn't take pics of every little thing I did. I did shape the braces a bit after the pics were taken. I just didn't scallop them. More of a taper to the periphery. Other steps I omitted pics of was leveling the kerfing with a radius dish to accept the back, some of the binding steps,some of the refret steps like truing the fingerboard before the refret with a long radiused block. That stuff can be seen lots of places anyway. I just didn't pick the camera up every step of the way. Weird that I should feel the need to apologize for that. I was mainly trying to demonstrate that neck reset technique. Hide glue is a pain to work with. All that mixing and temp control. I think it makes for a better sound....especially on the soundboard. I'm not using it exclusively yet because it is a messy pain but I do like it for the soundboard area.

 

 

This changes a great deal of what's been said. I for one am more than willing to take a great deal back for thinking otherwise.

[guitarcapo]

Put forth some accurate info that isn't sourced directly from books and you'll have proven your worth. Jealousy my arse. lol

 

Do you always reject information people who have learned from books offer?

You must be quite learned with that filter on things.

 

I think I hit a nerve.

 

[gitmo]

I'm enjoying it too. You may want to do a search of Freeman Keller's old posts. He documented several kit builds and a few scratch builds. He does a great job of walking you through the process.

 

I'll try a search for Freemans threads in the near future.

 

I have "bandsaw envy" from reading the "Apprentice" thread.

 

And actually cutting a shell to get shell inlay! I mean, who'ld a thunk shell actually came from a shell.

[Gary Palmer]

Do you always reject information people who have learned from books offer? You must be quite learned with that filter on things. I think I hit a nerve.

 

Nope. Books are often the best source for many types of information, but the majority of my learning was hands-on in the workshops. Why would I source most of my information from books when I had the real deal working alongside me?

 

Nowhere near hitting a nerve.

[John Backlund]

Yada, yada, yada!

 

All I know (and care about) is that I've enjoyed watching someone bringing a derelict example of my first decent guitar back to servicable life. Another 1260 makes music again.

 

[guitarcapo]

Weird how Gary Palmer shows up and this "Stonebridge" character with the low post count is no longer to be seen anywhere. It's like Superman and Clark Kent. You never see them together. Interesting.

[LiFeStArTs@40]

Weird how Gary Palmer shows up and this "Stonebridge" character with the low post count is no longer to be seen anywhere. It's like Superman and Clark Kent. You never see them together. Interesting.

 

Maybe that's because they might not have phone booths in England.